It is done...Dutch right wing governement collapses

[Saint Marcus]

you got it

one more interesting thing. De Vries called for a big people's party, uniting GL, SP and PvdA. Interesting, though it will never work.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
one more interesting thing. De Vries called for a big people's party, uniting GL, SP and PvdA. Interesting, though it will never work.

The three combined have now about the same amount of seats as the PvdA before the last elections.

What a dreamer de Vries is. The people's party (oh the word alone: horrid) will end up the size the PvdA is now.
And didn't the PvdA say GL and SP were unrealistic parties last time?

, if the PvdA wants the support of GL and SP voters, it will have to form a government with them, that is the only way.

Oh, the pathetic state the PvdA is in... Can't they think of anything better?

[Saint Marcus]

it's just De Vries. Van Nieuwenhoven doesn't agree with it. Not sure about Bos.

Who do you think will be best, or the most likely, party leader for the PvdA?

[germanos]

I don't know. In fact I never know with the PvdA. I guess that is why I have never conciderd voting for them. Somehow their leaders are allways weenies.

I guess van Nieuwenhoven would be better, since she seems at least the type that makes choices, and is not happy with just being a politician, but wants to make policies as well.

It is such a pity though she has this whining voice, everytime I hear her on the radio, cold shivers go up my spine. I'm afraid more voters could have the same feelings...

[Saint Marcus]

on the plus side, she'd be the only female party head, that may attract many women voters.

[Robert Plomp]

So it would be a good thing if they got in the governement, not? They'd mellow down, and you'd get more respect for them

After that there won't be much left over anymore.
Their strength is their opinion, their spirit. Their pacifism, their green adoration, that's what the party runs on. They are an empty party without that. Their voters will cast away from them. All I have Rosenmuller heard saying was that the social and green departments should get more cash.

As if more cash will solve all problems.

Most dutch politicians, and citizens, think very highly of Rosenmuller and praise him for his political experience and debating skills.

Pherhaps his political experience. But his debating skills aren't based in knowledge, but morely in a very good vocal capabilty.

CU, Christen Unie (Christian Union). Fusion of two small Christian parties. For fundies they are kind of liberal but only just.

CU is like the Republicans. In the netherlands that's concidered to be fundamentalistic. That's just because we're a very leftish country.

CU is concidered to be a more green party than groen-links, and as 'social' as a mix between the PvdA and SP.

Most dutch people don't know much about CU, as you can see in this description above.

No, I don't vote CU, I know much people who do though. I tell them all the time to vote CDA though.

SGP, S...?? Gereformeerde Partij

Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij.
indeed fundies. Oldest dutch democratic party though
Eventhough it's members have strange ideas, they are very respected for their wisdom and political experience. Their opinion is listened to but ignored.

Eventhough I disagree most of the time with them, I think they do not deserve the disrespect everybody has to them. They will never hurt anybody. It's just unfortunately that they never understood the bible

Don't get me wrong, I like the SP a lot. the only reason why I'm voting for Groenlinks is cause they have a shot at getting the governement, the SP never will (unless they change course).

Neither will GL.
Their green ideals and their pacifistic ideals will never make it into any governament. (CDA and GL do not match, PvdA and GL will never get a majority. Neither will PvdA, SP and GL.)

I think a PvdA, CDA, SP coalition will have a larger change.

CyberShy: you still didn't explain why the greens are liars...

I suspect you don't read "Elsevier"
Their article "The green liars" sums it all pretty up.
Green energy is a joke, wind energy is not a possibility, all of The Netherlands should be filled with wind mills only to provide a part of us with energy.

Their opinion on the 'ozon laag' has shaked up the entire world. Now we know that it's gape is a natural phenomenon.

Remember the "Brent Spar"?

What about their lie that 'the entire country will be filled with highways soon"?
About 0,05% of the dutch landscape contains highways.
More highways will reduces 'files' which will be much better for the environment.

What about the uncertainly about the Kyoto pact?
Nobody is sure the climate is going to be changed. Still the green-lobby presses the EU governaments to trow billions and billions into a gape that never might be proven to be right.

What about a-democratic people who run into the 2e kamer (2nd room of our governament)
We have a democracy, the people vote for the governament. If such a governament does not contain a minister for environmental issues (but a secretary of state) there is NO EXCUSE to break the democraty to 'create your own minister' who is not chosen.

What about nuclear reactors?
Nuclear reactors are the best replacements for old engergy plants. It's better for the environment, and if you take care of them the right way, they are save.
There are problems with their 'garbage' but a 'shoot it into the sun' solution might be affordable within years.

just a few common known issues why the greens are liars.

[Robert Plomp]

I'm going to play the devils advocate for the SGP.
These are issues that are common and well accepted in the majority of the world. (not even counting moslim-nations)

no more gay marriage
no more adoption for gay couples
prostitution made illegal
euthanasia made illegal
cloning forbidden
softdrugs made illegal
closing of all "coffeeshops"

These are issues that aren't that silly,
eventhough you might disagree with it.

pornography made illegal

Issues that are just a change of opinion (which won't make anybody fundamentalist. In a democraty you have the right to have different opinions. don't promote your opinion to be the default one!!)

abortion forbidden
test on the option of abortion forbidden
closing of all casinos
gambling made illegal

Left over the fundamentalistic ideas:

shops closed on sundays
people visiting hookers should be prosecuted
IVF made illegal
Palestinian people a direct threat to the Israeli state

BUT the only reason why they are fundamentalists is their 'article 34' idea, which says that the governament should spread the christian faith (read: THEIR christian faith) with the sword and with fire.

They don't understand the christian faith.
It shouldn't be forced through anybodies throat. It's a matter of believing. And yes, they have strange ideas besides that, but that's ok with me, but as long as they won't harm anyone only.

Thought I should clear that up

[Robert Plomp]

or is Cybershy banned after his recent threads in the Community forum?

No, I was not at home this weekend.

I do have some principles, mind you

So does the CDA! They have much principles!

I know. Women aren't allowed in the party, and watching TV is evil. For some reason, the internet isn't.

Internet is in some way. They have RDNet, which is an internet version that only contains pages that are MANUALLY accepted by the administrators!

[Hueij]

CU is concidered to be a more green party than groen-links, and as 'social' as a mix between the PvdA and SP.

Most dutch people don't know much about CU, as you can see in this description above.

Don't know if I should take this as an insult but since it comes from someone who votes CDA I'll let it slip...

Mix...?? Care to tell this dumb green leftie what the CU stances are on homosexuality and gay marriage, legal prostitution, legalising soft drugs, euthanasia etc usw...? Since ,according to you, I obviously don't know much about the CU, please enlighten me...

[Lemmy]

no more gay marriage
no more adoption for gay couples
prostitution made illegal
euthanasia made illegal
cloning forbidden
softdrugs made illegal
closing of all "coffeeshops"

They basically want to take away everything that makes the Netherlands unique and famous. And except for some moral issues people could have, i see no problem in leaving things as they are.

[Saint Marcus]

So does the CDA! They have much principles!

one election they'll go right, the other they go left, whatever gets them in power. Principles my ass.

[Hueij]

Originally posted by Lemmy

Quote:

no more gay marriage no more adoption for gay couples prostitution made illegal euthanasia made illegal cloning forbidden softdrugs made illegal closing of all "coffeeshops"

They basically want to take away everything that makes the Netherlands unique and famous. And except for some moral issues people could have, i see no problem in leaving things as they are.

Nah, it's all part of the "Norms and Values" program. Back to the fifties, when everyone knew his place and went to church every sunday! I's about time those fundies force us to live by their values. Cyber, go for it!

[Saint Marcus]

I suspect you don't read "Elsevier"
Their article "The green liars" sums it all pretty up.

Elsevier

I suspect you don't read "Time"
Their article "Green Century" sums it all pretty up.

[germanos]

Originally posted by CyberShy

CU is like the Republicans. In the netherlands that's concidered to be fundamentalistic. That's just because we're a very leftish country.

No they are not: they are Monarchists.

CU is concidered to be a more green party than groen-links, and as 'social' as a mix between the PvdA and SP.

They are slowly moving in a more moderate direction, but will move extremist again now that Kars Veling has to go.

SGP, S...?? Gereformeerde Partij

Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij.
indeed fundies. Oldest dutch democratic party though
Eventhough it's members have strange ideas, they are very respected for their wisdom and political experience. Their opinion is listened to but ignored.

Very respected indeed if nobody listens to them.

It's just unfortunately that they never understood the bible

Good argument

What about nuclear reactors?
Nuclear reactors are the best replacements for old engergy plants. It's better for the environment, and if you take care of them the right way, they are save.
There are problems with their 'garbage' but a 'shoot it into the sun' solution might be affordable within years.

Yep, no prrrolbemmmm. We'll solve it all in the future: what are those greens whining about.

You seem to be the guy that beleives in 'Rentmeesterschap' in the biblical sence. Would you care to explain how this ads up?

I can't be bothered to reply to your crap involving your advocature of the SGP (maybe later ), but I have one question though: why should we leave out the islamic world when determining 'the common sence' of the SGP views? Could that be because you find some of them (views) fundamentalists if they would be brought forward by muslims?

[Robert Plomp]

but I have one question though: why should we leave out the islamic world when determining 'the common sence' of the SGP views? Could that be because you find some of them (views) fundamentalists if they would be brought forward by muslims?

No, but I know much of you would.
But I don't shy away to compare the SGP with islamitic governaments. But I can't compare them with violent islamitic people.

more to come tomorrow.

[Saint Marcus]

they refuse women in any official functie (bestuur, kamer, etc) in their party. That's bad enough as it is. Not to mention their anti-gay notions. that certainly qualifies as fundamentalist in my book.

[germanos]

Originally posted by CyberShy
No, but I know much of you would.

Rephrase in Dutch please, I can't make Heads or Tales from that one.

more to come tomorrow.

Good

I don't see why you bother to stick your head in the noose for the SGP though.

But if you insist... :minced meat:

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by germanos
Yep, no prrrolbemmmm. We'll solve it all in the future: what are those greens whining about.

Green hysteria over nuclear power is quite amusing.

[Robert Plomp]

I don't see why you bother to stick your head in the noose for the SGP though.

I think we should be carefull in judging over people who think different than we do.

Rephrase in Dutch please, I can't make Heads or Tales from that one.

Much of you do concider some muslim governaments to be fundamentalistic. (not indonesia)

[Robert Plomp]

Don't know if I should take this as an insult but since it comes from someone who votes CDA I'll let it slip...

Don't take it as an insult. I don't know if it counts for you as well.

Mix...?? Care to tell this dumb green leftie what the CU stances are on homosexuality and gay marriage, legal prostitution, legalising soft drugs, euthanasia etc usw...? Since ,according to you, I obviously don't know much about the CU, please enlighten me...

homosexuality / gay mariage: Not a leftish / green issue. CU is against gay mariage.

legalising soft drugs is not a leftish / green issue either. They're against.

euthanasia is not a leftish / green issue either. They're against.

Does being against these 3 things make you a fundamentalist? I don't think so. I think these are pretty common thoughts in the world.

They basically want to take away everything that makes the Netherlands unique and famous.

I do want to be unique and famous as well, but we shouldn't be unique and famous for strange and bad laws. Compare the Taleban, they were unique and famous because of their laws......

And except for some moral issues people could have, i see no problem in leaving things as they are.

I agree on that on these issues:
- gay mariage
- prostitution being legal
- euthanasia being legal

I think our society will be a better place if these laws were improved or cancelled. (since canceling will not be an option I think improving will be the right choise)
- cloning forbidden
- softdrugs
- closing coffeeshops

I have a very moral issue against:
- adoption for gay couples.

I think the 'first list' is a personal thing. Eventhough I might disagree with euthanisia in much cases (and I agree with it in much cases as well) I think people should be able to decide on it for themselves. Same with gay-mariage. That's a personal thing, how can I ever interfere.

But take adoption by gay-couples, it involves a child as well. I think it's against nature that two fathers or two mothers have a baby. It seems to be better for a child to be raised by a hetero couple. Of course there's some nuance in the "better two fathers than no father at all" discussion, which is indeed not simplistic to be answered.

On the drugs issue, I think it does no good to our society, and it does no good to much people.

one election they'll go right, the other they go left, whatever gets them in power.

That's because you need to make a compromis with either the VVD or the PvdA to create a coalition. Pragmatism is very important for a governamental party. I think it's more important than principles.

Nah, it's all part of the "Norms and Values" program. Back to the fifties, when everyone knew his place and went to church every sunday! I's about time those fundies force us to live by their values. Cyber, go for it!

Don't mix up people who explain what the CU / SGP stand for with people who do stand for the CU / SGP.
I think we should not force anybody into any values / morals.

But I think we shouldn't close our eyes for some issues like drugs. Some issues are personal, gay-mariage, euthanasia, and some issues hit our society in general. We might disagree on the drugs issue, but that doesn't make either of us a fundamentalist.

I suspect you don't read "Time"
Their article "Green Century" sums it all pretty up.

I do not indeed, I read Elsevier, Vrij Nederland, NRC and AD. I think that's very well summing it up for all sides, left and right.

I do think that the green-lobby did do good things in the past. Things have improved very much since the 60's. Much, if not most, of that is because of groups like Greenpeace. But I think right now they're pushing the limit.

No they are not: they are Monarchists.

Of course, but that's only a difference on their opinion on how the state should be organised. On the rest of the issues they are very much thinking the same.

Remember that even the Democrats in the USA are more like the VVD than like the PvdA. Remember that The Netherlands are VERY leftish. Even people like Pim Fortuyn will concidered to be leftish on most of his ideas (except immigration) by most people on earth.

They are slowly moving in a more moderate direction, but will move extremist again now that Kars Veling has to go.

Extremists? Why? Because they do not share your ideas and opinion? In that case SP and GL are extreme to me. Again, don't label parties to be 'extreme' or 'fundamentalistic' that easily. It's very arrogant and sounds like "My opinion is superior"

I think that extremism is only in place if it's about parties (or groups or whatever) who want to push their moral values program through other peoples throat. ie groups who want to force people to live and believe like them.

CU is not like that. SGP is indeed. And if you keep on labeling people who think different than you, you come close to the "Think like me or you're an idiot" thing as well.

Very respected indeed if nobody listens to them.

They don't make a difference at all indeed.

CyberShy: It's just unfortunately that they never understood the bible

germanos: Good argument

That we have a different opinion on this doesn't make me a . Your opinion might be "Everybody can get their own truth out of the bible" and mine is "There's one truth in the bible". It's not as if yours is the default opinion, or the only right one, because it's very obvious that you don't concider my opinion to be one of those "true opinions" about the bible.

Yep, no prrrolbemmmm. We'll solve it all in the future: what are those greens whining about.

Is this an argument?
You can sum it up, why are you against nuclear reactors? (which is a global accepted way of producing energy, only in The Netherlands majority is against)

You seem to be the guy that beleives in 'Rentmeesterschap' in the biblical sence. Would you care to explain how this ads up?

I think it ads up on how we have improved our way of living since the 60's according to the environment. I think there are still things to do. It does not mean that we should punish 3rd world countries for not living up to our kyoto rules, while they hardly can produce enough food to eat.

Splitting garbage into paper - compost - glass - rest is a good thing. Not trowing away garbage on street. Don't use more water than you need. Those are issues who are to be token personal and serious.

And indeed, building a wind-mill on every squared meter, is not a good way to help the environment. In that case I think a nuclear reactor is doing a much better job.

they refuse women in any official functie (bestuur, kamer, etc) in their party. That's bad enough as it is. Not to mention their anti-gay notions. that certainly qualifies as fundamentalist in my book.

I think these two things are serious indeed, because they involve personal issues and not social issues.

[Lemmy]

You can sum it up, why are you against nuclear reactors? (which is a global accepted way of producing energy, only in The Netherlands majority is against)

i'm not against the reactors, but i can see why someone would be, 1 accident would affect the whole country, none of the reactors are in remote places, well, maybe remote for our standards, but not so remote that we're safe if something happens. So i do understand the fear for them.

Does being against these 3 things make you a fundamentalist? I don't think so. I think these are pretty common thoughts in the world.

Compared to our standards, everyone is a fundie
(ok, maybe i exagerated a bit)

[Robert Plomp]

i'm not against the reactors, but i can see why someone would be, 1 accident would affect the whole country

That's a true thing. If you build them, take care of them. But in that case I can't see why the green-groups are trying to sabotage nuclear transports and all that.....!

Compared to our standards, everyone is a fundie

In that case I'm happy to be a fundie

[Saint Marcus]

Much of you do concider some muslim governaments to be fundamentalistic. (not indonesia)

Few mulsim governements are fundamentalistic
But most muslim nations have strong fundamentalist movements

I do want to be unique and famous as well, but we shouldn't be unique and famous for strange and bad laws.

Why bad?

Especcially on drugs. Compare Amsterdam to San Fransisco. In Amsterdam 1 in 10 have used hard drugs. In San Fransisco, 4 in 10. And softdrugs? Amsterdam 5 in 10, San Fransisco 6 in 10.

Compare the Taleban, they were unique and famous because of their laws......

They weren't unique (Sharia law has been in place in other countries too, like Sudan). And they were infamous (not famous).

It seems to be better for a child to be raised by a hetero couple.

Single parents can adopt children too I think. Are you against that too?

Pragmatism is very important for a governamental party. I think it's more important than principles.

No wonder you vote CDA

I do not indeed, I read Elsevier, Vrij Nederland, NRC and AD. I think that's very well summing it up for all sides, left and right.

I read Newsweek, Time and The Economist. Those 3 magazines are among the most renowned in the world.

Extremists? Why?

Van Dijke said that homosexuality is as bad as theft. That's an extremist view, is it not?

[DeepO]

Nuclear plants: What I find so hypocritical about Green governments is that those neighbouring countries that are so against nuclear energy (Germany and the Netherlands) both buy their electricity in other countries: You guys in France, which has the bulk of its reactors in a piece of territory surrounded from 3 sides by Belgium (so in case of an accident, over 90% of casualties would be Belgian), where the Germans still buy part of their electricity straight from Tjernobyl. The whole Green idea on nuclear energy is nothing more then a NIMBY syndrom, and has as effect that the added CO2 exhaust from the classical plants (as wind energy is hardly on option: a lot of CO2 is also produced in the construction of those millions of windmills) will mean Kyoto will not be possible for most european countries.

Only those countries that have large nuclear plants, or those that are willing to forbid all non-public motorised transport will be able to uphold Kyoto. And the moment GL has such a radical election point, I'm coming over to vote for them. But no, everyone talks about further promoting public transport, no-one will cut the freedom of the citizens when it comes to his own car. While that is a green point that is valid to make: stop using cars!

(BTW, we're no better with our green parties: also just a bunch of badly informed hypocrits. The moment they're no longer an opposition party and they really have to govern, nothing real happens, only propaganda like issues the environment isn't really helped with. The real things, that are also well known, are left alone because voters wouldn't like them.)

DeepO

[Saint Marcus]

What I find so hypocritical about Green governments is that those neighbouring countries that are so against nuclear energy (Germany and the Netherlands)

We don't have a green governement. in fact, I think Germany is the only country in Europe with a Green governement.

[Robert Plomp]

Van Dijke said that homosexuality is as bad as theft. That's an extremist view, is it not?

Well, you should know in which context he said that.
The discussion was about sins, are all sins equal or not?

Much christians think that practicising homosexuality is one of the largest sins one can do, while stealing something small in example, is a small sin. (compared to homosexuality)

Van Dijke said that to God all sins are equal, and homosexuality is not the biggest sin or whatsoever.

To people who do not share the opinion that homosexuality is a sin that is a no-go,
but he tried more to explain to 'fundamentalists' that they should not pick on homosexuality that much.

I still think he shouldn't have said that though.

I agree with him though that all sins are equal,
but I think that a homosexual person should decide him or herself if practicising homosexuality is a sin. I can't do that for them. Of course in the end it's up to God, IMHO. Thus if gays believe in God, they should match it with God. But not with me.

[Saint Marcus]

you contradict yourself

you say all sins are equal, yet some sins are bigger than others.

[Saint Marcus]

and we got a new party

Heinsbroek has started the:

Lijst Nieuwe Politiek

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
We don't have a green governement. in fact, I think Germany is the only country in Europe with a Green governement.

Well, you may not have a green party in it (atm), but you surely are known as one of the greenest governments of Europe. And, Belgium has a green governement: 2 of the coalition parties are green... Germany certainly is not the only 'green' country (although they are the most succesful)

Besides, aren't the green parties in Holland perfect for giving those few votes necessary to get a majority? That's the reason they have been in many Belgian governments... I'm not so sure if GL is more green as left, or the other way around, Agalev was supposed to be green left, but they now are more focused on the environmental aspect than on the political aspect of their party.

DeepO

[Saint Marcus]

GL is the only green party. And it's support is not needed to get a majority in votes.