OCC games for fun and, well...FUN!

[Arrian]

SanPellegrino,

If you build the UN, you have a) control over whether or not there is a vote (popup message asks you every 5 or 10 turns); and b) an automatic spot on the ballot.

-Arrian

[SanPellegrino]

Thx,

I think I know what happened now...

...and it's embarassing to confess my stupidity

IIRC I built the UN a few turns AFTER Cultural Victory, just to see if I could win the vote. Ok, that's just not possible (but I am pretty sure you can build the spaceship)

[DanaLea]

What, in your opnion, is a good number of AI's to play aginst? In the differnt levels and / or map sizes?

I have only played CIV3 once to a win. And I have never played any civ above the lowest level. Each and every time I tried I was dead by the second age. Very dissapointing. But then again, I never had the benift of these forums.

I have seen refercences to OCC but couldn't find any details. THANK YOU for this thread. I was planning on asking if I hadn't seen it.

-dana

[Dominae]

DanaLea, are you asking about what are the best AI settings for normal Civ3 or OCC Civ3? In the normal game its entirely a matter of personal preference, I should think.

For OCC, the fewer civs around the slower the tech advancement, which is good for you. However, with too few civs it's more difficult to pit them against each other in war. Remember: the more enemies the AI civs have, the better it is for you. If one civ comes out ahead, then you've got your work cut out for you. Another thing to keep in mind is that you want to have contacted at least two civs by the time you build the Great Library.

So, my (very arbitrary) rule of thumb is to have one less civ than the suggested amount for each map size.

Hope this helps.


Dominae

[DanaLea]

why has no one talked about expansionist civs as good starting ones? I prefer them since I get a scout (great for making contact and clearing away the black) but mostly for better goodie huts. I think the advances you get would be well worth it - get an early lead, or at least have more to sell. There has to be a (major?) downside for OCC for it not to have come up before. Please share. Seems to me that the russians would be a good civ to play.

I tried my first OCC last night. Played on the regent diff level and got my a$$ kicked. got lucky with furs very nearby, within sphere soon after start and two iron sources plus spices within coloney range. lost all of them when AI's built cities next to them. Lost the furs when his sphere pushed mine back. Although I chose pangeaga with 60% water, I ended up on a smallish continant with 3 other civs - not a great start. keep playing until an AI got the great lib.

played again, moving one down in the diff level (warloard) and ended up with a better start location and no extreamly close civs. the land mass was larger and the civs farther away. was about to get lit and start the great lib when the game crashed and I didn't go back right away to an auto save. oh yeah, I'm the persians.

I am not a great player, I have major diffuculties on anything other then chiftian and even then I often get board about half way thought the game. I dislike some of the game mechanices. or rather there are some thing I wish I could do. For example, I want to be able to right click a worker (he's automated) and have a choice "finish current improvment then report for orders" I can only let him continune or inturrupt. annoying. I want to be able to select many units at once (like using the mouse to click and drag a box and everything inside become active for group orders). That way I can select all the workers (or some) and tell them all to start clearing jungle, or clear pollution. There are all too often entirely too many units to mircomanage. I get bogged down in the details and forget about things I wanted to do that turn. (sigh) One reason I like the OCC, with one city I think the units and city will be easier to manage. But I may be way off base.

oh well, sorry to go off, but thanks for listening. (if you did, that is)

-dana

[DaveMcW]

After testing several OCC starts into the middle ages, I would add another starting location characteristic:

g. Start in the center of the world map.

This gives you the same advantage as an expansionist in terms of getting early contacts. Also you are almost guaranteed to be on the largest continent.

[nbarclay]

My only OCC experience comes with the dice loaded ridiculously in my favor. I used the editor to come up with my version of the ultimate OCC city. Within the city radius are two coast tiles with fish (for the wonders that require coast), two grassland tiles and one plains tile with cattle, and the rest hills. Three of the hills have gold, five (if I remember right) have iron, and the rest have coal. And oh yeah, every tile in the city radius has river along it.

The next ring outside that has all the strategic and luxury resources that don't appear on mountains, with redundancy for resources that can disappear. Outside that is coast and some mountains with gems, saltpeter, uranium, and maybe another thing or two, and around that is coast and a narrow neck of mountain connecting to a pangea mainland where the AIs live. (It's a tiny map, by the way). So there's no way for AIs to settle up against the player's city and steal away access to resources.

With the dice so ridiculously loaded, I was able to win my first ever OCC game, playing on Emperor, with a 20,000 culture point city. If anyone's interested, I could post the scenario; you can pick your civ and opponents.

Nathan

[DanaLea]

Originally posted by nbarclay
If anyone's interested, I could post the scenario; you can pick your civ and opponents.

yeah, I want it...

-dana

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by nbarclay
My only OCC experience comes with the dice loaded ridiculously in my favor.

...

With the dice so ridiculously loaded, I was able to win my first ever OCC game, playing on Emperor, with a 20,000 culture point city. If anyone's interested, I could post the scenario; you can pick your civ and opponents.

Nathan

Sounds like a map I would try on deity and space race. Perhaps a little too good though.

[DanaLea]

Originally posted by nbarclay
My only OCC experience comes with the dice loaded ridiculously in my favor.

here's an idea, while you are at it.. edit the GL so that electricity doesn't make it expire....



-dana

[Dominae]

If anyone has good OCC starts to share, please feel free to post them on this thread. I personally would love not to have to restart a few dozens times just to get my game going. I prefer un-edited maps (although nbarclay's start is hilarious...gotta try it out).

DaveMcW, I think starting in the middle of the map only applies if you're playing on a Pangea world. I've played games where my "island in the middle" was quite disconnected to the big landmasses to the right and left. Do you know something about that world generator that I don't?

DanaLea, first, the Great Library expires with Education, not Electricity. If you made the Great Library expire with Electricity (or, gah!, never expire), you'd have one easy OCC game! Second, the main trait of Expansionist civs, namely getting free early techs, is largely irrelevant if you're planning to rush to the GL and fill your pockets with Gold until Education. Sure, you might discover just those techs that you need (Bronze Working, Alphabet, Writing, Literature), but you often get those that you don't want (The Wheel, Warrior Code). Given this, I prefer picking a trait that will give some concrete benefits every game.


Dominae

[DanaLea]

Originally posted by Dominae
DanaLea, first, the Great Library expires with Education, not Electricity. If you made the Great Library expire with Electricity (or, gah!, never expire), you'd have one easy OCC game!

I knew that... really. it was a typo. at least I got the "E" right.. lol

just becase I could, I used the editor and generated a small map and edited it. created a pensula similar to what the eariler post was talking about - with several good bonuses and lux's, rivers, and 2 coast squares. Also every resource is on the pensula. Just gotta be able to keep it.

Second, the main trait of Expansionist civs, namely getting free early techs, is largely irrelevant if you're planning to rush to the GL and fill your pockets with Gold until Education.

ok, that makes sense. With the map I made, I edited the GL so it expires with scientific method (!) and created a new civ. The Texans! I gave them all 6 traits and four starting advances. Created a civ specific unit, the Texas Ranger. Used the Legionary icon, is a 3.4.2 and costs 30 to build with iron working and iron. upgrades to marines. oh yeah!

ok, so I'm cheating. I do that sometimes. I'm famous for changing the rules when I don't like them. I do it with pool, cards, and now civilization!!

-Dana

[DanaLea]

didn't seem to fit with my reply above, so I'm keeping it seperate.

Played some more on the game I was playing eariler (the own that froze). Got the great lib, was great for a while, didn't last long. I am surrounded on all sides by other cities. they have pushed my borders in - it's hard to keep my land. Even though I give them stuff, usualy accept their offered trades, I can't keep up with techs. I try to research the ones they arn't, then trade them, but they only want to give me a map and like 30 gold for electricty or medicine. Also of the five civs, two of them are less then polite. I can't get my gold very high - have to spend it every time I turn around to get a tech. and I can't build railroads 'cuz no one will give me the resources I need.

This is way hard. I'll keep you posted. any suggestions?

-Dana

p.s. danalea is my login, dana is my name. just fyi

[Dominae]

Dana, don't worry about "cheating"...at least you're having fun!

You seem to be having problems with your economy. The trick is to sell your techs to the AI for some generous gold per turn (gpt) deals. Obviously you have to be a tech or two they don't have to do this. Eventually you want to be in a situation where you're got the Science slider to 100% and are still generating money. By keeping the AIs poor you're preventing them from trading techs (and getting rich yourself in the process!). Like I said in my original post, you want to sell techs as soon as you get them, to everyone. "Tech-hoarding" doesn't work in OCC (in my experience).


Dominae

[vmxa1]

No need it does not make GL expire, Education does. He could have made resources never expire.

[DaveMcW]

You're right Dominae, I have only been playing Pangea maps. I should have mentioned that.

[nbarclay]

Okay, here's the city I created. Remember, it's a scenario, not a save game.

Nathan

[jshelr]

Visited the States over the weekend and our house there has an older computer. Tried an OCC game. Have to say I loved it. I had no strategic or lux resources at all, all game. I did have lots of shielded grassland along rivers, however. T'was a great city. Should frame a picture, but I don't know how to do screenshots.

Learned quite a bit for one game about city management and science wonders, among other things. Being a nice guy seems to work.

OCC games are definitely to be recommended for new players in order to expose gaps in your knowledge and round off your understanding of what the game is all about.

[Dominae]

Next time I play a SP game, I'm going to try an OCC game with the Ottomans. I'll post a log here, just to remove some of the mystery from OCC...


Dominae

[Dominae]

As promised here is a log and the save of an OCC game I recently attempted. I say "attempted" because I eventually fell to the unexpectedly aggressive Japanese. However, had they not attacked me when they did, I'm sure this would have been a SS victory.

I played the Ottomans because I've now convinced that Industrious is the second-best OCC trait (behind, of course, Scientific). I also wanted to have an unfamiliar face staring at me whenever I opened the diplomacy window (Xerxes is just so smug when he's happy).

3950BC: Istanbul founded
3750BC: Warrior
3550BC: Warrior
3350BC: Worker
2750BC: Alphabet
1650BC: Writing
The Colossus
1575BC: Spearman
1525BC: Spearman
1175BC: Literature
1075BC: Pottery
610BC: Map Making
490BC: The Great Library
450BC: Galley
370BC: Galley
290BC: Contact the Japanese
270BC: Contact the Spanish
250BC: The Wheel
Warrior Code
Horseback Riding
Iron Working
Ceremonial Burial
Mysticism
Polytheism
Monarchy
Philosophy
Code of Laws
Construction
90BC: Contact the Chinese
50BC: Contact the Mongols
150AD: Sell Territory map to all other civs for ~3 gold
170AD: Currency
Engineering
Contact the Vikings
Trade (Vikings): World map, 145 gold for Mysticism
190AD: The Republic; begin revolution
Trade (Japanese): 9 gold per turn, 28 gold for Contact with Vikings
270AD: Switch governments to Republic
300AD: Feudalism
310AD: Trade (Japanese): 23 gold per turn, 43 gold for Engineering
Trade (Spanish): 14 gold per turn, 51 gold for Engineering
440AD: Monotheism
510AD: Invention
Trade (Japanese): 11 gold per turn, 9 gold for Gems
520AD: Trade (Chinese): 2 Workers for 215 gold
540AD: Leonardo's Workshop
600AD: Marketplace
620AD: Chivalry
660AD: Gunpowder
720AD: Trade (Japanese): 14 gold per turn, 96 gold for Ivory
730AD: Cathedral
740AD: Theology
920AD: Chemistry
940AD: Education
1010AD: Library
1090AD: Steal Astronomy from the Spanish for ~1000 gold
1150AD: Trade (Chinese): Banking for Metallurgy, 49 gold
1275AD: Copernicus's Observatory
Military Tradition
Trade (Spanish): Navigation, 11 gold per turn for Military Tradition
1340AD: Economics ***
1350AD: Trade (Mongols): Theory of Gravity, Printing Press, Furs for Economics
Trade (Chinese): Magnetism for Economics, 194 gold
Nationalism
1380AD: Newton's University
1395AD: Trade (Chinese): Democracy, Music Theory, 95 gold per turn for Nationalism
Trade (Mongols): 64 gold per turn for Nationalism
Trade (Vikings): 42 gold per turn, 109 gold for Nationalism
1430AD: Bank
1435AD: Medicine ***
1460AD: Trade (Mongols): 45 gold per turn, 56 gold for Medicine
Trade (Vikings): 33 gold per turn, 50 gold for Medicine
Trade (Japanese): Dyes, 25 gold per turn, 6 gold for Medicine
1480AD: Trade (Mongols): Steam Power for ~1650 gold
1505AD: Sanitation ***
Trade (Mongols): 84 gold per turn, 58 gold for Sanitation
Trade (Chinese): Spices, 29 gold per turn, 68 gold for Sanitation
1565AD: Trade (Mongols): Industrialization for 1640 gold
1570AD: Trade (Japanese): Coal for 10 gold per turn, 7 gold
1590AD: Factory
1605AD: Coal Plant
1620AD: Electricity ***
1690AD: Scientific Method ***
1695AD: Theory of Evolution
Atomic Theory ***
Electronics ***
1700AD: Japanese declare war; all is lost...


The *'s indicate techs that no other civ had yet discovered.

Of particular note in this game is the fact that I never entered a Golden Age! I missed out on the Hanging Gardens and never got to build the Hoover Dam, so the 'Industrious' half of my GA was always missing...


Dominae

[Dominae]

Here's a screenshot just after I completed Newton's University:

[vmxa1]

Interesting, I almost asked you if it was PTW, like a dummy until I saw it was Ottomans.

[Theseus]

Almost did the same ... post-PTW, I am less surprised the Japs whacked you.

[SanPellegrino]

what settings did you use?

btw, never saw japan that big, in my games they are usually wiped out early.

[Dominae]

The AI seems a little more aggressive in PTW, no? I was really really tempted to just reload a couple of turns earlier and appease the Japanese, but now that I think about it there's no way they would have "let me off the hook" until the SS was completed. Too bad.

Settings:

World setup: Small world size, everything else standard

Civ choices: Ottomans; all AI civs random

Victory conditions: Cultural and Diplomatic off, others on


Some notes:

1. Leonardo's Workshop was a waste of shields, but I figured it was better to have than completely waste all that production. I was pre-buidling for Copernicus's Observatory. Surprisingly the AI researched down the Engineering path first, giving me more mileage out of the GL but messing up my production. I actually had a choice between Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's, and selected the latter to keep money out of the AI's pockets. The Japanese ended up getting Sun Tzu's, which was probably a factor in my demise.

2. Workers appear to cost around 100-125 gold now. I ended up buying a couple anyway, since the AI wanted Chivalry and other warmongering techs for them. Trades like this are fine because they're more likely to waste their time on military units, which is good for you.

3. I was lucky to be the only Scientific civ. This allowed me to sell Engineering and Nationalism for nice profit.

4. Importing Luxuries from civs that are Polite or Gracious costs from 25 to 50 gold. I assume this is because you've only got one city, so the AI reasons luxs are not worth much to you. The secret, of course, is that they're worth a lot, allowing you to put off building Temples and Cathedrals for quite some time.

5. I've come to realise that OCC is all about orchestrating the world diplomatic situation. I'm sure had I made moves to prevent Japan from becoming too powerful I would have won this game. Unfortunately, I couldn't sign any alliances against the Japanese because they had already surrounded me...


Dominae

[DaveMcW]

The usual GA timing does not help much in OCC. After the great library you have plenty of time to get everything you need before the copernicus prebuild, and you are not researching at all. I sometimes build wealth because I have nothing else to do!

Hoover comes right after you get 2 free techs, which means you are set for gold and can buy your way into the modern age if needed. Again, no improvements until SETI. A GA might help you get radio, but you don't really need it.

I find the best time for a GA is after the space race has started. It gives a larger % increase in trade after the colossus is obsolete. And you get a major boost to research and shields when you finally have critical techs to research and a massive project to build. With some artillery help it's not hard for an immortal to win a battle, and by now you should have a MPP target to kill.

[DaveMcW]

Being the only scientific civ is a huge benefit, probably more powerful than map size. I have so much more fun in OCC games where I have to use every trick in the book to keep them from getting the bonus tech first.

[Dominae]

DaveMcW, I've never been able to get the free tech first in the Middle and Industrial ages. For the Ancient-Middle transition, this is because I've built the GL so it would be useless anyway. I've never caught up to the AI in research at the end of the Middle ages; there's simply too many techs, so they're able to whore to their heart's content.

I don't have much experience with Standard maps, but I have to disagree that being the only Scientific civ is more of a factor that map size. Yes, you get a nice price for those free techs, but it doesn't compare to the limit on the number of cities (and hence research potential)the AI can build on smaller maps, IMO.


Dominae

[DaveMcW]

Here is a recent game on a large map where I was lucky enough to have my scientific competition killed off early.

Large pangea (70% water, middle climate settings)
12 civs all random
Emperor
Raging barbarians
Classic Civ3
Only victory conditions are conquest and space race.

Unfortunately I lost the 4000 BC autosave. I attached my earliest save at 3450 after building 3 warriors and making contact with India, trading Bronze Working/Masonry for Alphabet. Even though this is a classic civ3 game I didn't buy any workers until the industrial age.


3350BC: 4th Warrior
2850BC: Granary
2590BC: Temple
1870BC: Colossus
1830BC: Writing
1200BC: Literature ***
1150BC: Great Library
1125BC: Map Making, etc.

I traded world maps every 3-4 turns until Education, and sold/gifted all techs from the GL. Looking at the world map, there are only 11 civs! I have a bad feeling the civ on an island somewhere will mess up my diplomacy plans. The other two scientific civs are the Greeks and my neighbor Russia.

630BC: Great Lighthouse
570BC: Galley
30BC: Found the Zulu island.

I kept the Zulu bankrupt with world maps, but refused to sell any techs. This prevented them from getting any great wonders (especially Universal Suffrage) until the modern age. But they caught up anyway...

70AD: Finished all improvements, started prebuild for Copernicus Observatory.
230AD: Invention
280AD: Education

My treasury was 3000 when the GL became obsolete. China and America were the world's superpowers, thanks to their industrious workers and excellent start positions. America seemed to be doing all the research but China could always afford to break the monopoly.

400AD: Astronomy from China for 500 gold and contact with Zulu (discount for researching part of it).
Chivalry + Gunpowder + 400 gold from backwards civs for Astronomy and contact with Zulu.
440AD: Copernicus Observatory
550AD: China declares war on the Greeks.
570AD: Chemistry
Printing Press + Music Theory + Banking + Navigation from backwards civs for Chemistry.
730AD: Metallurgy from China for 800 gold (discount for researching part of it).
Physics + Democracy + Free Artistry + Economics + 200 gold from backwards civs for Metallurgy.
760AD: The rampaging Chinese forces have destroyed the Greeks.
800AD: Military Tradition from China for 600 gold (discount for researching part of it).
Magnetism + Theory of Gravity from backwards civs for Military Tradition + 1200 gold + 80 gpt.

I went bankrupt buying my way into the industrial age, putting gold income at 100% and giving it all away. But it all paid off because the Russians did not have Theory of Gravity...

800AD: Nationalism ***
3500 gold + 100 gpt from all civs for Nationalism.
850AD: Newton's University

When not building improvements, I began stockpiling workers and catapults.

1020AD: Medicine ***
Steam Power + 200 gold + 500 gpt from all civs for Medicine.
1110AD: Electricity from China for 2000 gold (discount for researching part of it).
Industrialization + Communism from backwards civs for Electricity.
1250AD: China declares war on the Russians.
1275AD: China declares war on the Indians.
1280AD: Scientific Method ***
Sanitation + Corporation + 2200 gold + 400 gpt from all civs for Scientific Method.
1285AD: Theory of Evolution
Atomic Theory ***
Electronics ***
Replaceable Parts + Refining + Espionage + 550 gpt + ROP from all civs for Atomic Theory.
Gifted Electronics to all civs.
Mobilized for war and upgraded 10 artillery, 3 infantry.
1290AD: Hospital, 7 workers are added to the city.
1300AD: The rampaging Egyptian forces have destroyed the Russians. (China allied the whole world against the Russians at the end.)
1420AD: Radio***
Cumbustion + 1000 gold + 900 gpt from all civs for Radio
1465AD: Mass Production + Motorized Transport + Flight in a big trading frenzy that costs me 5000 net gold.

I entered the modern era with 40,000 gold.

Rocketry***
9000 gold + 450 gpt from all civs for Rocketry.
1485AD: I join the ever-growing alliance against India. They are down to one city and I need to turn off mobilization so I can build a research lab and SETI. My army is 10 infantry, 26 artillery, 2 tanks.
1505AD: After I nicely bombard the Indian city down to size 1 for them, my allies all sign a peace treaty! I finish India myself, knowing that my allies' backstab will hurt their reputations a lot more than a kill will hurt mine.
1510AD: China declares war on the Aztecs.
1560AD: Ecology from America for 400 gpt.
MPP with China, Egypt, Rome, France for Ecology.
I declare war on America.
1565AD: The world declares war on America.
1575AD: Computers from France for 6000 gold.
1630AD: Space Flight from the Zulu (discount for researching part of it) and Fission from the Chinese, no net profit.
6000 gold from the France for Space Flight + Fission.
1645AD: The rampaging Egyptian forces have destroyed the Americans.
1650AD: Zululand signs an MPP with Japan, who only has 1 city left.
1660AD: With 1 turn left on my anti-American MPPs, I declare war on Japan.
1665AD: Japan attacks me just like America did. All my allies declare war on Japan.
China and Rome attack and kill Japan, triggering a war with Zululand.
1670AD: Zululand buys MPPs with Egypt and France, who declare war on Rome and China.
1675AD: Apollo Program, spies installed.
1685AD: Superconductor from the Zulu for 25,000 gold.
Satellites from France for Superconductor + 5000 gold (discount for researching part of it).
Synthetic Fibers from China for Satellites + Superconductor.
1756AD: All civs on the continent are warring and double-crossing in monarchy/communism. Zululand is still a democracy.
Alliance with China, Rome, France vs. Zululand. Egypt is still MPP with the Zulu.
1770AD: Egypt is dying. I declare war and pick off a longbowman with an immortal, triggering a golden age.
1786AD: Nuclear Power
1788AD: The rampaging Roman forces have destroyed the French.
1794AD: Finished component number nine, 25 turns until The Laser. Zululand has eight components, working on Exterior Casing (18 turns left) in Ulundi, and also researching The Laser. And they are STILL a democracy, although half the population is entertainers.
1802AD: The rampaging Chinese forces have destroyed the Egyptians.
1816AD: Zululand finally falls into anarchy. I sabotage the Exterior Casing.
1824AD: Zululand becomes a communism. They accept my peace treaty and even give me an ROP for cheap. Six transports set out for Zulu Island, carrying my entire army of 32 artillery, 8 MI, 8MA. The Exterior Casing will complete in 8 turns now that war weariness is not a factor, and sabotage won't work against communism. (I wasted 15,000 gold trying anyway, but it was insanely difficult to even create a spy.)
1838AD: ROP rape, Ulundi is razed 2 turns from completing the exterior casing.
1840AD: Zululand discovers The Laser one turn before me (It would be more but their discovery reduced my research time). The Ulundi strike force is decimated by a 20 MA counterattack.
1842AD: The Laser
My Airport prebuild is switched to Planetary Party Lounge.
1844AD: SS Victory

[DaveMcW]

And a screenshot... the minimaps are from 10 AD, 1000 AD, 1650 AD, 1842 AD.