Roman Civil War

[techumseh]

Does anyone know what type of ships were current during the Roman civil wars? Specifically during the conflict between Caesar and Pompey? BeBro has some excellent examples in his Imperium Romanum, but little in the way of background information. Thanks.

[Prometeus]

http://www.romaeterna.org/navigare.html

[fairline]

Pompey's fleet of 200 ships with which he tackled the Mediterranean pirates included all sizes of galley up to a 'ten' (deceres - very few in the fleet). Apparently, by far the most common was the trireme with the smallest being the light galleys (liburnae) which became more popular under Augustus in the Rhine and Danube fleets a few decades later.

Looking at BeBro's range, the following would be appropriate (despite the dates shown by the graphics). Obviously, the bottom middle ship is a trade ship rather than a warship.

In terms of fighting capability they would be ranked as follows (in descending order): deceres, hepteres, quinquereme, liburnian.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by fairline
In terms of fighting capability they would be ranked as follows (in descending order): deceres, hepteres, quinquereme, liburnian.

I agree, with one exception: perhap liburnians should have moderate attack values, the highest movement rate, but very low defense.

Especially ships of that type later in the civil war were very well equipped with throwing engines, but, due to their light construction and smaller crews of little or no use in enter combat or ram attacks against much heavier ships. Liburnians were however able to sink those ships effectively via ranged attacks with fire catapults. I think Actium was a clear decision between the heavy, but slow warships of M.Antonius and Kleopatra and more agile ships of Agrippa (mainly Liburnians from what I read).

This is of course difficult to simulate in civ2, I just want to say that these light ships weren´t without chances against bigger galleys...

[techumseh]

Thanks guys. This scenario will run from 55-44 BC. So if I give the 4 Roman factions a number of obsolete Hepteres and Quinqueremes and allow them to build Decimeres and to research the tech for Liburnes, will that be reasonable? (Isn't scenario making a real science? )

I could allow the Egyptians (Greeks) to build Hepteres and Quinqs as well.

The Gauls had a sturdy ocean going fleet of sailing ships which caused Caesar quite a bit of trouble before he defeated it. Does anyone have a picture?

I'm not sure if the Parthians had a fleet. Anyone know?

BeBro, in Imperium Romanum you have Liburnes available with the discovery of "Harpax". Is that piracy?

[Jimmywax]

I am probably wrong here but I thought that "Harpax" was a sort of early composite material or like an epoxy.

[BeBro]

Originally posted by techumseh
BeBro, in Imperium Romanum you have Liburnes available with the discovery of "Harpax". Is that piracy?

No, a Harpax is a special type of "ammunition" (not sure if this is the right expression) for balistae. It is a wooden, very thick and ca. 2 metres long kind of heavy "projectile" with iron hooks and with a strong rope at the end. When it was fired, the harpax penetrated the sides of an enemy vessel, and the hooks and the ropes made it easier to initiate enter combat against this ship, because it could not escape anymore. Due to the strong construction of the harpax, it was difficult to remove once it has hit its target. So the harpax is a modern alternative to the (at the time of the civil war) outdated enter bridges.

I´m not sure if this weapon was used by Liburnians directly, because as said above, they weren´t that good in enter combat against heavier ships. I can only speculate here - maybe this weapon was used esp. by heavier ships against the highly maneuverable Liburnians (it was difficult for bigger ships to come into position for a classical board to board enter battle), or it could of course also be useful in fights between similar types of ships (Liburnian vs. Liburnian).

I´m however quite sure that this weapon was introduced in late republican/civil war times.

So if I give the 4 Roman factions a number of obsolete Hepteres and Quinqueremes and allow them to build Decimeres and to research the tech for Liburnes, will that be reasonable?

Sounds good to me. Only one thing, I´m sometimes unsure about the correct English names - I used "Decimere" because I found it in a German book, maybe fairline´s "Deceres" is more correct in the English language.

[fairline]

Techumseh,

How's your French?

http://www.histofig.com/naval/galeres_wargalley.html

I´m not sure if this weapon was used by Liburnians directly, because as said above, they weren´t that good in enter combat against heavier ships

BeBro: this website implies that liburnae did use the harpax/harpago(?) (I think - my French is rubbish )

[Prometeus]

http://www.ku.edu/history/index/euro...Tormentum.html

[techumseh]

Originally posted by fairline
Techumseh,

How's your French?

Good enough to know that "Version anglaise d'apres site officiel" means that there's an English version!

Merci, mon ami.

[Prometeus]

http://www.bible-history.com/resource/ww_wwar.htm

[BeBro]

Originally posted by fairline

BeBro: this website implies that liburnae did use the harpax/harpago(?) (I think - my French is rubbish )

Well, if I read the 2nd table correctly (my French is rubbish too ) they aren´t equipped with harpax - no "Hx" entry in the last column "Armement possible (suivant dates)".

However, the site has some other links with some nice pics of models and additional info even in English:

http://www.rodlangton.com/ancient/300scale.htm (some of the other links there are also nice)

[BeBro]

Originally posted by techumseh


Good enough to know that "Version anglaise d'apres site officiel" means that there's an English version!

Merci, mon ami.

Rofl

[fairline]

Good enough to know that "Version anglaise d'apres site officiel" means that there's an English version!

merde, je suis un imbecile

[Prometeus]

Ehi... les fransè uses idiot... imbecille is used by italians...

[fairline]

you see, I told you I was an idiot

[Cyrion]

Actually, we do use "imbécile" in french too!!!

So Fairline, despite all evidences, you might not be an idiot...

[St Leo]

The British have nothing against "imbecile" either.

[Case]

Originally posted by Jimmywax
I am probably wrong here but I thought that "Harpax" was a sort of early composite material or like an epoxy.

I'm confused as well - Harpax is a brand of toilet cleaning stuff here in Australia

[BeBro]

Yeah, what cleans the sea of enemy ships can´t be that bad for this purpose

[techumseh]

I found a pic of the Veneti (Gaul) ship. Is anyone game to try a unit? Of BB's ships, the "Nef. 1200" looks closest.

[techumseh]

I found an example of an ancient Australian ship armed with "Harpax." Crewed by fierce gangs of Australian housewives, they cleaned up the seas around Australia in the 2nd century. (The Great Barrier Reef used to have a ring around it!)

[Prometeus]

Originally posted by BeBro
Yeah, what cleans the sea of enemy ships can´t be that bad for this purpose

[Case]

Originally posted by techumseh
I found an example of an ancient Australian ship armed with "Harpax." Crewed by fierce gangs of Australian housewives, they cleaned up the seas around Australia in the 2nd century. (The Great Barrier Reef used to have a ring around it!)

[BeBro]

Originally posted by techumseh
I found a pic of the Veneti (Gaul) ship. Is anyone game to try a unit? Of BB's ships, the "Nef. 1200" looks closest.

I could modify the "nef" gfx if you don´t plan to release the scn before next weekend...

[Kull]

Originally posted by techumseh
I found an example of an ancient Australian ship armed with "Harpax."

A literal "LOL"! If the scenario is half as good as this discussion, it'll be a classic!

[techumseh]

Originally posted by BeBro


I could modify the "nef" gfx if you don´t plan to release the scn before next weekend...

Little chance of that, I'm afraid. So, yes please.

[techumseh]

I'm trying to sort out the wonders for this scenario. Given the short time frame (55-44 BC, monthly turns), it makes more sense to use wonders as objectives, meaning new ones can't be built. Many will be obsolete anyway, since high impact wonders will unbalance multi-player games.

Some wonders are obvious: The Pharos (lighthouse), the Great Library, the pyramids, and the colossus. Does anyone know if the Oracle and the Hanging Gardens were still around at this time?

Other examples of the classical Seven Wonders could be included: the Statue of Zeus at Athens, the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus, and the Mausoleum at Hallicarnassus.

Rome is a bit of a problem; many of the well known historical structures weren't built yet, including the colosseum. I think I'll add the Senate (Cure for Cancer), and perhaps the Forum and the Circus Maximus, both of which were already around. Are there any others I should include?

How about for the Parthians? Their capital was Selucia/Ctesiphon - anything there? Persopolis was already destroyed by Alexander and Pasargadae is just off my map, so options are limited, but I want to boost the objective count in Parthia.

Should there be any wonders in Spain, North Africa or Gaul? Or the rest of Italy for that matter? Thanks for any help.

[Prometeus]

Originally posted by techumseh

Rome is a bit of a problem; many of the well known historical structures weren't built yet, including the colosseum. I think I'll add the Senate (Cure for Cancer), and perhaps the Forum and the Circus Maximus, both of which were already around. Are there any others I should include?

How about for the Parthians? Their capital was Selucia/Ctesiphon - anything there? Persopolis was already destroyed by Alexander and Pasargadae is just off my map, so options are limited, but I want to boost the objective count in Parthia.

you should include many many others... I suggest you these :

Capitolium Hill
Juno Moneta's Temple

About Parthians

Actually, Seleucia was on the opposite river side of Chtesiphon. Chtesiphon itself was only one of the many capital cities in Parthian Empire. Kings moved between their capitals following political, economical or strategical reasons. Anyway, Seleucia/Chtesiphon was not so important as it become in later Parthian empire's times.

Other capitals were Ecbatana, Hatra in midst of nowadays Iraq, Niniwe, and Tigranocerta - when it'as under parthian control. If Pasagardae is out of your map, you should discard Nisa, Marw and Bactra, too.

[BeBro]

Perhaps the golden Lion´s throne of the Parthian kings? Traian brought it finally to Rome after his campaign I believe. Otherwise I haven´t much ideas for the Parthians...