October 17, 2002, 23:23
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#1
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Warlord
Local Time: 09:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 168
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AI annoyed by Privateers?
In my current game I attacked an american caravel with a privateer (the first time I found a use for them) and their attitude went from polite to annoyed.
I thought they "can attack without revealing their nationality"? Anybody used them? Seems most people never have built any.
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October 18, 2002, 00:57
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#2
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Prince
Local Time: 09:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand.
Posts: 689
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I often build a couple just for "annoyance" value, and scoping out enemy territorary. I haven't experienced--to my knowledge--the situation described.
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October 18, 2002, 01:17
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#3
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Settler
Local Time: 04:31
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Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 10
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In my games I have found privaterrs to be worthless. They barely have enough attack to take on a Galley with any success. Maybe I should tweak it in the editor to make it a bit more formitable for the time when you get it.
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October 18, 2002, 02:51
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#4
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Emperor
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I have found two uses for them. Apart from attacking undefended transport(which is BTW historically correct) I build them in fully developed ports and disband them elsewhere to speed up production there.
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Don't eat the yellow snow.
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October 18, 2002, 06:47
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#5
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Prince
Local Time: 10:31
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 720
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Well, I do build Privateers for the harassment value. I send them in opposite directions kind of like a sea scout but then when I encounter enemy transports I atteck them. The privateers concept was great in the Colonization game where you could actually profit from attck by being able to steal what was in the transports.
So long...
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Excellence can be attained if you Care more than other think is wise, Risk more than others think is safe, Dream more than others think is practical and Expect more than others think is possible.
Ask a Question and you're a fool for 3 minutes; don't ask a question and you're a fool for the rest of your life! Chinese Proverb
Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Warren Buffet
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October 18, 2002, 07:22
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#6
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Chieftain
Local Time: 11:31
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 81
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I once had in a game some time ago that the germans declared war on me, I reloaded, i wanted to know why, because I was stronger.
After some tests they kept declaring war on me, I tested again and removed my privateer from their territory and suddenly they don't declare war, so the AI even knows that it's your privateer, which it shouldn't be able to see, another AI cheat .
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October 18, 2002, 07:43
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#7
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King
Local Time: 04:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
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What I do is use them to block harbor access of my 'friends'. If you have a ROP, build privateers and stack them with a warship of yours. The privateers will block the ports and they won't be attacked because they are stacked with your units.
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October 18, 2002, 08:36
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#8
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Emperor
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Privateers, along with all navies, are a waste of time in almost all of my games. Whats the point? IMO its an area where CIV3 really falls short.
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October 18, 2002, 08:43
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#9
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:31
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SpencerH : I disagree, navies can be very useful. I have even seen the AI use them in an intelligent manner
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Don't eat the yellow snow.
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October 18, 2002, 08:47
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#10
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Prince
Local Time: 04:31
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Micco, FL
Posts: 811
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The AI knows! And if you think it gets upset when you use a privateer, wait until you start sinking it's Privateers. It is going to be interesting to see the reactions of the human players in PTW - the AI knows but the humans won't.
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October 18, 2002, 09:06
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#11
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Emperor
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Quote:
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Originally posted by bongo
SpencerH : I disagree, navies can be very useful. I have even seen the AI use them in an intelligent manner
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I've seen the AI effectively use navies for bombardment and I've used them for the same thing (in maybe 1 in 20 games). Usually I dont build anything beyond a few galleys unless an enemy is using a navy against me. By the time you have arty and a rail network even the bombardment function of a navy is worthless.
The point is that the major function of a navy is not bombardment of roads and irrigation.
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October 18, 2002, 10:33
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#12
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Deity
Local Time: 05:31
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
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SanPelligrino,
I'm not sure what the AI knows. Last night, I built a largish privateer fleet (20 or so). Early on, I sank 1 or 2 Zulu ships. A couple of turns after that, they attacked me. Granted, they were "furious" with me, and had been nearly the entire game. So the attack may have happened anyway.
Later, after I removed 1/2 of the Zulu empire, my privateers began butchering the English navy, and shortly thereafter, the English attacked me. They had been "annoyed" after having been "polite" for most of the game.
Who knows? I probably would have been attacked anyway, but I admit being a bit suspicious.
-Arrian
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The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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October 18, 2002, 10:35
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#13
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Emperor
Local Time: 10:31
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SpencerH : I don't bother building large navies myself either until the AI navies becomes a major pain in the ass. Which BTW happens alot. Sure, artillery and a good rail/road network will scare them off a bit but I rather build that navy than run all over the place with workers to rebuild everything the AI have destroyed.
Oh, if your planning an invasion of another continent/island a navy can be handy for protecting those transports.
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Don't eat the yellow snow.
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October 18, 2002, 10:42
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#14
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Prince
Local Time: 10:31
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 720
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I agree with SpencerH on this one, although it depends on the kind of map you're playing on. On archipelago you definitely need them, where if you play pangea you can do without. It's still fun to play around with the navy though!
So long...
__________________
Excellence can be attained if you Care more than other think is wise, Risk more than others think is safe, Dream more than others think is practical and Expect more than others think is possible.
Ask a Question and you're a fool for 3 minutes; don't ask a question and you're a fool for the rest of your life! Chinese Proverb
Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Warren Buffet
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October 18, 2002, 10:58
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#15
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Emperor
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As I said, I dont see it very often but that may have to do with my map choice (usually random). I usually keep 20-30 arty anyway so they can take down any invasion fleet to 1 HP then whatever few ships I build quickly (including ironclads) can take em out.
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October 18, 2002, 11:21
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#16
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Warlord
Local Time: 09:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 168
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Well, in my current game I thought, I could find a use for privateers the first time. It is an archipelago map, which slowed research a bit, because they couldn't make contact with some civs and settle some islands before astronomy. Then the run on the last unoccupied islands started. I didn't have many settlers handy, so I wanted to delay AI expansion towards this islands.
I thought finally it all makes sense
Too bad the AI knows about your privateers, but maybe a good method to start a war without taking the rep hit, just attacking with a few privateers!?
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"Where I come from, we don't fraternize with the enemy - how about yourself?"
Civ2 Military Advisor
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October 18, 2002, 12:19
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#17
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Deity
Local Time: 11:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Republic of Flanders
Posts: 10,747
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Quote:
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Originally posted by WarpStorm
What I do is use them to block harbor access of my 'friends'. If you have a ROP, build privateers and stack them with a warship of yours. The privateers will block the ports and they won't be attacked because they are stacked with your units.
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Good tactic , but it "feels" like an exploit to me.
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October 18, 2002, 12:23
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#18
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King
Local Time: 04:31
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I've eventually had to go to war over this. It's not like they don't know who's blockading them with my warships supporting them.
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October 18, 2002, 12:58
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#19
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Prince
Local Time: 05:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Washington Township, NJ USA
Posts: 470
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Mattaba
I once had in a game some time ago that the germans declared war on me, I reloaded, i wanted to know why, because I was stronger.
After some tests they kept declaring war on me, I tested again and removed my privateer from their territory and suddenly they don't declare war, so the AI even knows that it's your privateer, which it shouldn't be able to see, another AI cheat.
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Well, , I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet. First - what was the German attitude toward you? If Furious, then maybe it was random and only a coincidence that war was declared when you left the Privateer in their territory.
If not furious, then it seems you are right, but perhaps you should try a couple reloads and see if they avoid war every time you remove the little Pirate.
One more thing - How many other Civs? Maybe the AI is smart enough to know that the other civs could not possibly be responsible and by a little deductive reasoning they conclude that you're the pirate!
( ooo... that's scary - AI capable of deductive reasoning! )
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My Reach always exceeds my Grasp...
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October 18, 2002, 13:16
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#20
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Warlord
Local Time: 09:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 168
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AI - smart?
No, I really can't imagine the AI knows it's your privateer, because the others have no saltpeter or no access to the ocean or something. I think like they know the map, they know your units. Seems I am not the only one who observed the attitude changing after a privateer attack and no Skeeve, I don't think it's only coincidende.
btw: what wiil it bei in MP? Will Privateers have a black flag? Otherwise it wouldn't be hard to identify the ship...
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"Where I come from, we don't fraternize with the enemy - how about yourself?"
Civ2 Military Advisor
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October 18, 2002, 13:34
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#21
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Prince
Local Time: 05:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Washington Township, NJ USA
Posts: 470
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Quote:
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Originally posted by SanPellegrino
Seems I am not the only one who observed the attitude changing after a privateer attack and no Skeeve, I don't think it's only coincidende.
btw: what wiil it bei in MP? Will Privateers have a black flag? Otherwise it wouldn't be hard to identify the ship...
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Yeah, that's what I thought, just wanted to rule out coincidence totally.
I think the black flag would work, but how will you know which one is your own if other privateers are around? Maybe the user sees his own color as it is...
Otherwise, you would have to keep clicking until you find the one you have control over.
Also, I was thinking more about the deductive reasoning thing, and even though the AI can't do it, humans certainly can and will. For example, if a privateer attacks me on my west coast and the nearest western civ is human-controlled France, I might conclude that:
The Germans to my east have sailed around the world just to instigate a war between me and the French!! HA, I bet you weren't thinking that was my conclusion!
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My Reach always exceeds my Grasp...
Last edited by Skeeve; October 18, 2002 at 13:39.
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October 18, 2002, 14:27
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#22
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Chieftain
Local Time: 11:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 81
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The german attitude to me was annoyed. I tested multiple times and every time I removed the privateer, they didn't declare war, and every time I left it in their territory they declared war.
I don't know how many civs there were left , it was some time ago.
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October 18, 2002, 14:52
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#23
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Warlord
Local Time: 09:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 168
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Skeeve
The Germans to my east have sailed around the world just to instigate a war between me and the French!! HA, I bet you weren't thinking that was my conclusion!
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sounds like a good idea to have fun in MP, if everyone is suspicious
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"Where I come from, we don't fraternize with the enemy - how about yourself?"
Civ2 Military Advisor
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October 18, 2002, 14:57
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#24
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Deity
Local Time: 05:31
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Location: Kneel before Grog!
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Mattaba,
Interesting. Now that I'm thinking about it some more, my original maurading vs. the English took place a long way from their territory. I was hitting ships in the open ocean. As I began to run low on targets, I moved my privateer fleet toward their island, and eventually entered their territory, hoping to lure ships out to kill.
Almost immediately, 2 galleons left an English port, sailed due west for 2 turns, and unloaded 5 Cavalry on my coast. Therefore, *if* there is a relation between privateers and AI declarations of war, it is (based on our experiences) most likely based upon a border violation. This suggests that the AI does, in fact, know that the privateer is yours, on some level at least.
-Arrian
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grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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October 18, 2002, 15:10
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#25
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Chieftain
Local Time: 11:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 81
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Arrian
Mattaba,
Interesting. Now that I'm thinking about it some more, my original maurading vs. the English took place a long way from their territory. I was hitting ships in the open ocean. As I began to run low on targets, I moved my privateer fleet toward their island, and eventually entered their territory, hoping to lure ships out to kill.
Almost immediately, 2 galleons left an English port, sailed due west for 2 turns, and unloaded 5 Cavalry on my coast. Therefore, *if* there is a relation between privateers and AI declarations of war, it is (based on our experiences) most likely based upon a border violation. This suggests that the AI does, in fact, know that the privateer is yours, on some level at least.
-Arrian
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But now we can go even further with thinking.
Does attacking the AI with privateers make their mood towards you worse? Or is it only the territory violation that made them declare war?
I don't know but I think I'm gonna do some tests with that to know for sure.
My guess is that it does make their mood worse, I think that if it does, Firaxis implemented it to prevent overexploitation of privateers.
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October 18, 2002, 15:10
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#26
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Warlord
Local Time: 09:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 168
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Arrian,
Interesting thing about the border violation, but I think attacking them is the bigger factor. I killed an american ship in roman territory, the americans went from polite to annoyed, the romans stayed polite. And the Romans didn't show up to ask me to withdraw my troops.
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"Where I come from, we don't fraternize with the enemy - how about yourself?"
Civ2 Military Advisor
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October 18, 2002, 15:15
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#27
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Emperor
Local Time: 04:31
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Has anyone seen an AI privateer? I havent.
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October 18, 2002, 16:29
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#28
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Prince
Local Time: 03:31
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Illinois USA
Posts: 303
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Quote:
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Originally posted by SpencerH
Has anyone seen an AI privateer? I havent.
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i've seen a few. Once the destroy something, I'm told it was destroyed by XYZ's Artillery so I know XYZ attacked me.
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October 18, 2002, 16:31
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#29
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Deity
Local Time: 05:31
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
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Spencer,
Yeah, I got attacked by one recently (fortunately for me, my galleon, fully loaded with elite cavalry, fought them off). But it is rare.
-Arrian
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grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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October 18, 2002, 16:38
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#30
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King
Local Time: 02:31
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: California - SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,120
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I can't swear to it (don't use them enough) but I always thought that the AI "knew" it was your privateer attacking -- just that the "privateer" unit, as an unflagged vessel, doesn't invite a declaration of war since it is arguably acting privately (for booty) rather than "acting on orders of the civ." In my limited experience, aggressive privateering always caused an attitude deterioration among the AI victims.
And I've seen an AI privateer, but only once a long time ago (v1.07f / v1.16f / v1.17f??) -- it harassed an island city and my ships trying to resupply the city. BTW, in support of my untested view of the first paragraph, I could "Turn on Team Color Disk" under the preferences menu and see the nationality of the offending Privateer -- but of course had no way of telling the civ to stop attacking my galleys .
Catt
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