Early Diplomacy

controlfreak · October 18, 2002, 08:30

(First-time poster, First time civ-anything but really hooked)

Reading through the threads there's a ton of great stuff out there. Great for me because I get more time to read the forum (at Work

) than I get to play (three kids incl. 6 month old twins).

What I haven't seen addressed much is the diplomatic screen (aside from Declare war or trade a gazillion techs and 4 cities for peace.). Especially in regards to the early game.

My current game Greece and Egypt are on my continent and I've built the GLighthouse. I found France on its own continent and China and Japan on another but I have'nt made contact w/them. No one else can get to each other YET without suicide galley runs. I'm guessing there are a few ways to cash-in on this, mostly by info selling. My problem is what to sell and what NOT to sell.

I am curious what the Gurus thoughts are when it comes to First Contact. Both in a builder/peace-lover

mentality and in a warmonger

style. I'm sure there are a lot of fine nuances to diplomacy that I'm missing out on. (And hoping this becomes the Thread to document them. Let me know if this is started somewhere else already.)

Also since I know where China and Japan are what are the reasons for delaying contact versus rushing in with a bargaining table strapped on?

Any help is much appreciated.

Dominae · October 18, 2002, 08:50

controlfreak, in my experience keeping the civs into distinct "trading circles" is the way to go. You do this by not selling Communications early on. Because a tech's value only depreciates based on how many civs you've contacted already know it, you can sell techs at a much greater profit, either between camps or within camps.

Once the AI starts getting Astronomy or Navigation, that's the time to start sellng Comms, because the other civs will be able to sail across treacherous waters and contact each other. You might as well get a profit off those Comms before they become obsolete.

As for specific Warmonger or Builder diplomacy strategies, I can't think of any beyond common sense (maybe this just means I've been using some tricks for so long they've become "common sense" to me!). If you're planning to fight, keep the AI away from Military Tradition, as the AI knows full well how good Cavalry are. A nice warmonger dirty trick is to buy techs for per turn deals, then declare war. Your reputation will suffer, but you'll have obtained a couple of expensive techs for free. Builder (peaceful) diplomacy revolves around keeping everyone happy. Getting the AI civs to be Gracious toward you does wonders for trade.

Keep reading the 'Poly forums; there's plenty of great strategy in here that I just can't sum up in one post!

Dominae

controlfreak · October 18, 2002, 10:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
keeping the civs into distinct "trading circles" is the way to go. You do this by not selling Communications early on.

If I sell/trade my map the civs will see a few places where crossing the ocean is possible with a galley. So I guess I can only hold off selling Communications so long, otherwise I'll miss out on profit from selling at all. Been thinking about stationing galleys in these ocean crossing chokepoints. They're sort of like land base ones until astro and navigation.

Quote:

As for specific Warmonger or Builder diplomacy strategies, I can't think of any beyond common sense (maybe this just means I've been using some tricks for so long they've become "common sense" to me!).

I think most things are common sense once you've been doing them long enough. I can't wait until I've had a chance to be Civing long enough.

I've seen some cases where player delayed first contact.

Quote:

From Zachriel Strategy Guide
Our explorer has discovered the boundaries of a new Civilization, the Aztecs. Rumor is that they sacrifice humans on the altar of their gods. We will not announce our presence just yet.

What's the advantage to this? Just military, surprize attack?

Dominae · October 18, 2002, 10:55

The only reason I can think of to not contact an AI civ is if you know they're going to be aggressive to you right away. Other than the German and the Zulus, there aren't many civs that will attack you in their early expansion phase. Then again, first contact can be so beneficial (tech/map trading) that it far outweighs any negative consequences, in my opinion.

By the way, good thinking concerning stationing Galleys at Sea/Coast chokepoints. It all depends on the map, but I can see how it can be very effective with the right geography.

Dominae

punkbass2000 · October 18, 2002, 11:28

Hmmm, naval chokepoints to prevent communications. Now THAT'S a good idea. I imagine most people are aware of land chokepoints, but I don't recall anyone mentioning naval ones before.

Robber Baron · October 18, 2002, 11:34

I'm glad you raised the subject, controlfreak, because I've been wondering what to do with initial contact (e.g., via the Lighthouse) myself. Deals involving communication can be so lucrative. And in fact some civs will fight over it (declaring war if you refuse to trade or give it).
On the other hand, my instinct has always been to keep the AI civs seperated as long as possible.
Is it the general consensus, then, that establishing separate "trading circles" is the better strategy?

Arrian · October 18, 2002, 11:52

Hmm, good thread.

I would not sell your maps or communications until the civs are nearing the ability to make contact on their own (astronomy or navigation, depending).

In the meantime, I would do my best to trade for their luxuries and attempt to cultivate trading partners for later, and/or play imperialist. Here's what I mean:

Civs on my continent are gonna die. One way or another, I WILL kill them. Sooner rather than later, hopefully. Therefore, I will be in a fairly strong trading position, since I should have several luxury monopolies. Plus, I hope to be the "big dog" in the world militarily.

Small, weak, backward civs are not going to ever be of use to you alive. Therefore I would keep them poor and backward, and invade them at my leisure.

Medium to large sized, backward civs on the other hand, may not be worth the trouble of invading, and have the potential to be able to provide you with large gpt payments for your goods. I tend to give them techs like "the republic" or "democracy" in exchange for their luxury. Getting them into representative gov'ts gets their cashflow up, and you can then milk that cash flow.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a warmonger, I see the opportunity to play imperialist here, particularly if contact is impossible for the AIs until navigation. Pick the weakest, most isolated civ, and crush them. It probably won't be very hard, and you will gain a luxury. If time and your own priorities permit, pick the next weakest and repeat the same.

In your case, maybe France should be a target. If they're fairly large, though, forget it. They actually make a great trading partner because they're commercial and therefore fairly rich. Cultivate them for trade, and hit Japan or China...

Wait a minute... what am I saying? You still have AI's on your own continent. Egypt is target #1. Greece is target #2... or perhaps 3, behind someone overseas. It's usually best to wait for Cavalry to take down Greece. Knights will do the job, but it's often painful.

-Arrian

controlfreak · October 18, 2002, 14:09

Arrian --

Many thanks for the guidance. Egypt is setup to be my GL-generating killing field. Greece is making a play for continents resources so they must go too. France has yet to build a harbor so I've taken the liberty to settle their coast and am making roads to start the trading.

As yet, I haven't contacted Japan/China (original reason for post was "Should I?") and have no idea who's with them (should be two more civs).

On thread, how much impact do my actions affect other civ's attitude towards me? Is it better to get the handshaking and tech trading in before bashing Cleo or doesn't it matter. What can I do to get the off-continent civs to look at me favorably and want to trade with me? It seems rather silly to hand over free "gift" gold and then suck it right back out through ruthless monopolistic trade.

Dominae -- How do trading circle's work?

My guess is I can sell comms for Greece/Egypt to either France or Japan/China. Or I can sell France to Japan/China. If I do more than one of these, I might as well sell everyone to everyone because in the next turn their going to turn around and sell amongst themselves.

Can I do all these trades on my turn or will the AI cheat like it does with resources and sell to the next civ in the middle of my turn? Is there a certain order of comm selling like there is for techs (sell to the strongest civ first.)

Robber Baron --
Are you THE Robber Baron? I loved your strategy for RT2. Wasn't even sure I needed another game, but Civ's got me in its clutches and I'm back to square one.

Catt · October 18, 2002, 14:42

Quote:

Originally posted by controlfreak
Reading through the threads there's a ton of great stuff out there. Great for me because I get more time to read the forum (at Work

) than I get to play (three kids incl. 6 month old twins).

First off, I empathize - fair amount of time to surf 'Poly (work

), less time to play - 3 kids including 9 month old twins

.

The power of early, exclusive contact (i.e. Great Lighthouse or suicide galleys) can really be tremendous and I almost never sacrafice that power advantage. Contact is great for a number of reasons -- greater knowledge of total opponents and who might be a future threat, opportunity to trade luxuries, etc. before others, etc. - but I think the biggest advantage lies in how tech devalues.

Tech gets progressively cheaper (both to buy and to research) as more and more civs with whom you have contact know the tech. Thus, the civ with contact with all civs has a tech research advantage over the other civs -- if you're behind, you will catch up much more quickly via your own research, and if you're ahead, you can choose quirky research paths safe in the knowledge that it should always be fairly easy for you to drop back and quickly get a tech at a cheaper price. Another aspect to this is the benefits of denying the AI's this tech devaluation tool -- simply by keeping each AI limited to contact with only 2 or 3 other civs (while you have contact with 7 others) will greatly stunt the AI's research ability which can be a big help in games above the Regent level.

So what does all this mean? In most cases where I secure exclusive early contact, I keep that early contact carefully guarded -- I will not trade communications or maps even under the threat of war in most cases. The trick is that those contacts and maps are worth oodles of gold, and the failure to sell them before AIs begin contacting one another is a wasted opportunity. Again in most cases, the perfect time for me to sell communications and maps (and this needs to be done to all civs on the same turn) is just after someone discovers Astronomy. Assuming that you are competitive research-wise, you can check every few turns as the leading AI gets closer to Astronomy to see if they have discovered it; if they have, it is time to sell your precious info before it is discovered and sold by an AI.

In my latest game (AU 107) I was so far behind that I couldn't tell when an AI first discovered Astronomy, but I got lucky and got to witness the "nearly-first" contact between different landmasses. Just before one AI galley would have been able to make contact with the other landmass by using my landmass as the intermediate step, I was able to sell communications and maps for an absolute windfall -- numerous techs, maps, gold, and luxuries. Quite a pleasant round of trading.

Longwinded post brought down to a bit of homespun advice -- with multiple landmasses unreachable without the GL or Astronomy, early exclusive contact is incredibly valuable and barring unusual circumstances, don't sell or trade it for anything until contact seems just around the corner regardles of what you do.

Catt

Robber Baron · October 18, 2002, 15:26

Re: preserving the trading circles: the point about differential tech devaluation is very helpful.
On potential luxury trades: you can't, right, until astronomy is discovered and a trading route opens? Or can you open one unilaterally via the Lighthouse?

Dominae · October 18, 2002, 15:26

conrolfreak, see Catt's post for the answer to your question; it's what I would have said, only better.

Dominae

Dominae · October 18, 2002, 15:40

Robber Baron, you can trade Luxuries whenever your capitals are conneted via trade networks. The easiest way to do this is with roads. Overseas trade is a bit trickier. First, you need to build a Harbor. With Map Making, all Coastal squares count as roads for purposes of determining what is in connect in your trade network, as long as the ultimatley form a path back to your Harbor. The same goes for Astronomy with Sea tiles and Navigation for Ocean tiles. I'm quite certain that the Great Lighthouse allows trade over Sea squares without having discovered Astronomy (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this).

Note that this doesn't only apply to trade between empires, but to within empires as well. Even if you build a Harbor in a city on another continent in order to hook your empire up to a Luxury, you'll still need to discover the appropriate techs in case there is no "Coastal-link" between that Harbor and one of the mainland. As I said above, the difference with inter-civ trade is that your capitals need to be connected in this way, not just individual cities.

Dominae

Arrian · October 18, 2002, 16:22

Quote:

On thread, how much impact do my actions affect other civ's attitude towards me? Is it better to get the handshaking and tech trading in before bashing Cleo or doesn't it matter. What can I do to get the off-continent civs to look at me favorably and want to trade with me? It seems rather silly to hand over free "gift" gold and then suck it right back out through ruthless monopolistic trade.

#1 - If you are a warmongering jerk and other civs FIND OUT ABOUT IT, they will hate you. But, if you say... wipe out Egypt and Greece before anyone else can make contact with them, no one will ever know. Seriously. Another reason to avoid selling contact.

#2 - Make sure you create embassies, that helps they AI civs' attitudes towards you.

#3 - If you have a viable trade route (if you can safely sail across) and the AI has harbours, you can trade resources. However, if (as is more likely) there is at least 1 ocean square seperating you, no trade until navigation.

#4 - The AI should not be able to sell stuff on your turn with the 1.29 patch. Do you have it?

-Arrian

Theseus · October 18, 2002, 18:42

Great comments, not much to add.

BTW, people often blow it off, but the GLighthouse can be tremendously powerful in this regard; it's just hard to know whether continents will in fact be separated enough.

Arrian · October 19, 2002, 23:55

Yeah, I never object to a neighbor building it

-Arrian

alva · October 20, 2002, 07:04

Quote:

#1 - If you are a warmongering jerk and other civs FIND OUT ABOUT IT, they will hate you. But, if you say... wipe out Egypt and Greece before anyone else can make contact with them, no one will ever know. Seriously. Another reason to avoid selling contact.

I'm somewhat confused here? Don't they know about it, even if they made contact with you

Dominae · October 20, 2002, 10:50

A question about the "Arrian Deception": if you contact other civs before you manage to cleanse (pardon my vocabulary) your home continent, will these civs be informed about your past transgressions by your neighbours? For instance, if you've repeatedly broken deals with the Indians and pillaged their towns, will the Indians tell the Persians (who are on another continent) about it when they contact each other? Or do the Persians have to "witness" one of your evil acts after contact? If the former is true, the Arrian Deception is quite difficult to pull off.

Dominae

punkbass2000 · October 20, 2002, 12:02

Only civs with contact with the civ you're backstabbing will know of your treachery, IIRC. This makes sense if, you think about it. If you contact me, am I going to tell you about how I just screwed over the Egyptians repeatedly? You can wipe out groups, too. For example, if the Greeks amd Egyptians both know each other, the Greeks will know about what you've done. But if you wipe out both of them before they contact others, then no one else will know, and so on.

Dominae · October 20, 2002, 13:40

Quote:

Originally posted by punkbass2000
If you contact me, am I going to tell you about how I just screwed over the Egyptians repeatedly?

No, but you might tell me about how the Egyptians are screwing you over repeatedly. That was the distinction in my original question; do you have to wipe them out before they make contact with any other civ, i.e. will your bad reputation spread to civs who haven't witnessed it themselves?

Dominae

Arrian · October 20, 2002, 13:54

Dominae,

Yeah, if a civ you screw over makes contact with someone else, that newly contacted civ will get an earful about how evil you are.

On the other hand, if only you have contact with that new civ, they will have no idea of what you've done, or are currently doing, to your neighbors.

-Arrian

Dominae · October 20, 2002, 13:58

Ok, thanks Arrian. That's basically what is going in my current game (Zulus...how can I not be a evil, treacherous despot? No offense!), but I just wanted to make sure.

Dominae

punkbass2000 · October 20, 2002, 14:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae

No, but you might tell me about how the Egyptians are screwing you over repeatedly. That was the distinction in my original question; do you have to wipe them out before they make contact with any other civ, i.e. will your bad reputation spread to civs who haven't witnessed it themselves?

Dominae

"Only civs with contact with the civ you're backstabbing will know of your treachery, IIRC."

Did this not answer your question?

Dominae · October 20, 2002, 15:40

Quote:

Originally posted by punkbass2000
"Only civs with contact with the civ you're backstabbing will know of your treachery, IIRC."

Did this not answer your question?

No offense, but no. By "backstabbing" I understand that you're still doing it, i.e. you're currently breaking per-turn deals, and razing cities, etc. If you've done those things before you contact a third party, it is possible that the third party wouldn't take note because it didn't witness them (if the game were coded this way).

I'm sorry if it looked like I was ignoring your response, but I honestly don't think it answered my question (which may have been wordly badly)...

Dominae

punkbass2000 · October 20, 2002, 16:00

I must not understand your question properly, because I still think I answered that question indirectly

Oh well, it's a moot point now anyway.

Meshelic · October 22, 2002, 22:14

There IS much advantage to keeping communications from other civs, until it just can't be avoided or you need the cash. I prefer to keep all the other civs wondering if they are alone besides me. More advantage that way in my opinion