Why I believe capitalism is morally wrong and evil...

[Sava]

In theory, in a small arena, Capitalism sounds great. People working hard, producing goods and/or services, and selling them to other people in a healthy, competitive environment. Ahhhh, everbody's happy. Communism also sounds great on paper. But in reality, the two are the same, regardless of their conflicting ideologies.

What capitalism has become:

You pay people the absolute lowest amount of money they are willing to work for.

You charge people the absolute highest amount of money they are willing to pay for your goods/services.

As a business becomes more successful, it eats up it's weaker competitors (like evolution); thus stifling competition. In the US, the government steps in, breaks up the monopoly and creates 3-6 mini-monopolies that by way of parallel pricing, stabilize the market, and exploit consumers.

Now, with the stock market, a successful business comes into the market. People invest, the business grows, over expands, shrinks; losing money for all the investors. With the stock market comes this false "value" of a company. Case in point, United Airlines stock is below the ten dollar mark. In terms of the market, it's worth less than the cost of one Boeing 757. It owns 55 Boeing 757's. Yet the company is worth less than a 1/50 of its assets?

Because of the rampant bureaucracy, business has turned into a firehouse without firefighters, flailing around incessently, throwing off any investor that tries to grab hold.

The entire motivation is to make money. And not just enough money to be comfortable. But to engage in a practice of rapacity and exploitation. In America, the amount of money you have is in indicator of how successful a person you are. And with globalization, the entire world is under the boot of corporate America. Look at the terror situation. The Islam world hates us because of three basic reasons.

1) Unconditional support of Israel
2) Imperialism
3) Military presence

If America were to say, stop pillaging the world, especially the Middle East for oil, the terrorists would have one less tool for motivation. If America develops some sort of propreitary system (I laugh at the thought right now actually because greed is too strong) and provides and spreads its high quality of life, I doubt there would be hardly any terrorists at all.

There would be no need for the US military to hang over the heads of the Arab world like a guillotine, and I'm sure that we could work out a fair solution to Israel's dilemna. There will always be a few fanatics devoted to smiting the Jews from the Earth. But if America takes the initiative and becomes a propreitary nation rather than a capitalist nation, the fanatics would find far less support than they do today.

[MikeH]

Whatcha gonna replace it with?

[Asher]

[Solly]

What bollocks.

[Sava]

By initiating minor changes slowly ease into a propreitary system. Starting with non-profit corporations (moderately higher wages) to provide free/extremely low cost health care to people. Do the same for agricultural industries and the education system.

[Arrian]

Edit: Nevermind. Pointless.

Let it all out Sava. You'll feel better.

-Arrian

[Sava]

Yup, I see I have the classic moronic responses; but note, no intelligent arguments against my posts.

[connorkimbro]

Nothing in there speaks of the morality of capitalism, in fact, less than half the post even is speaking of capitalism at all.

You pay people the absolute lowest amount of money they are willing to work for.

You charge people the absolute highest amount of money they are willing to pay for your goods/services.

In other words: you demand (and recieve) the absolute highest salary you can while still keeping your job.

you demand the absolute lowest prices possible before you buy.

doesn't sound too bad to me. And if you don't do that anyway, you're an idiot. Who wouldn't demand the highest salary, or the lowest prices possible?

Why should a company pay an employee MORE than he's willing to work for? Hi, im Sam, i'll work for 10 dollars an hours. response - Oh, no, we're going to pay you 15! That's insane. Why would a company do that? It's the SAME THING as a company saying "here's 10 dollars an hour!" and sam says "no thanks, i only want 5 an hour"

Under capitalism, wages (and prices of commodities) balance out at what both parties agree too. IF they don't agree to the price of the goods (or the price of the labor) then an economic exchange is not made.


As for the rest of your post, you're only talking about the **** that happens because our government gets involved. Ideally, the government would NOT get involved, either in economics, or in the middle east.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Boddington's
What bollocks.

I think it's funny as hell. Then in a couple years he'll realize that while he think he's not, most people in this world have greed. It's part of human nature.

Non-profit corporations...so why would people make a corporation again if they can't profit from it?

The further left you go, the more lazy people can be and get away with it. Maybe that's what you want, but I don't want a society of slackers.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Capitalism is the equivalent of economic Darwinism. Both are inevitable.

Darwinism relies on the principal that only the strong survive those with inherent defenses and survival instinct.

Capitalism relies onthe principal that only the strong survive. Those with inherent strengths and survival instinct (some call this greed).

Both are inevitable albeit some may argue that intervention by man(goverenment) screws around with the natural order of things.

In conclusion you may not like it, it may seem a tad harsh but it is the laws of eco's. Ecology and Economies.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sava
Yup, I see I have the classic moronic responses; but note, no intelligent arguments against my posts.

I don't know how realize just how stupid your post actually is -- that's why a lot of people don't care enough to put efforts into real responses.

You're either too dumb to understand what they'd tell you, or you're too arrogant to change your mind about it.

Just go keep believing what you believe, I take comfort in knowing that you'll never get into a position of power because even the average dimwitted American knows better.

[Sava]

Asher, that's the point, if people want TV's and consumer goods, they won't get them if they are lazy. What a propeitary system does is provide the basics like food, health care, education, and jobs to people. It doesn't allow a shrewd few to exploit the system and build monumental fortunes with which to hold the world hostage with. If people want to be lazy, they can. If they want to work to have luxuries and consumer goods, they can. The difference between the two systems is that instead of one CEO, or a few execs getting all the rewards, the people do.

Greed is not part of human nature, it is a learned behavior. For two million years, up until the last few hundred, human beings had a very communal existence with the planet and each other. Nomadic and agrarian tribes of people populated vast areas, taking only what they needed and left the rest. But with the rise of European Imperialism, the Western world has turned into a vicious swarm of locusts. America is just the most successful spawn of this. You should really learn about human history before you go spouting off what you claim to be human nature.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sava
Greed is not part of human nature, it is a learned behavior.

Yes, it is. It's part of the hoarding mentality. You find the necessities of life and greedily hold onto them for the survival of you and your family.

"Sharing" is the learned behavior.

You're just not looking far enough back to what's true for human nature. You're looking at some examples where people lived in a tribe, yet we live in a country now and we're still greedy. Doesn't change a thing.

And I'm not sure you understand what proprietary means, you're using it a lot but I don't think you're using it right.

[Starchild]

I'm never sure why people are so eager to refer to capitalism in terms of Darwinism. Darwinism isn't a very good thing endear an economic system to people as ecologies basically balance on a knife edge. One slip in the balance and ecologies come crashing down. Hell, they all come crashing down eventually. Evolution only works due to the fact that, given enough time, dumb luck will work in your favour.

I'd hope that capitalism is a bit more stable than that.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Asher
I don't know how realize just how stupid your post actually is -- that's why a lot of people don't care enough to put efforts into real responses.

Actually, I fully admit and realize that in a world of greedy immoral people, only a select few will appreciate these type of ideas.

You're either too dumb to understand what they'd tell you, or you're too arrogant to change your mind about it.

Actually, I'd enjoy pointing out how morally repugnant they are. And yes, I am too arrogant to change my mind. One doesn't compromise what is morally right.

Just go keep believing what you believe, I take comfort in knowing that you'll never get into a position of power because even the average dimwitted American knows better.

History has proven you wrong. People have overthrown monarchies, organized labor unions to fight greedy monopolies, and now America is on the verge of seeing that its own imperialism is the cause for the violence it receives. The average American is brainwashed by the propaganda they see on their 30 second news clips on network TV, and the sensationalized news coverage of ultimately insignificant social strifes.

Why do you think the right wants to keep good education for the rich? Because they want the poor and mainstream middle classes to remain ignorant.

Don't underestimate me Asher. My family came to this country from war torn Europe with nothing and has built a moderately high degree of economic standing. Each generation has been more successful than the previous one. My grandfather built a successful business, and at 82, still works 6 full days a week. My mother is a VP for a clinical laboratory company that employs 40k. I am currently on my way to finishing a 4 year degree in computers. I'm 5 years, I'll have my own company. I plan on getting an MBA and going to law school.

The world is my oyster, I have not yet come to a goal or obstacle I cannot attain or overcome. Am I a lazy person? Hah... Don't worry, I'm sure in ten or twenty years when you're sitting in your small 2 bedroom house in rural Canada, you'll see on TV a young idealist pushing his way into the American government. But I doubt you have the mental capacity to even remember someone like me. Just remember the name Sava. You can bet that I'll be laughing on the inside at all the naysayers.

[connorkimbro]

Wheres this fantastical fictional greed monster who controls the entire worlds supply of money, sava?

Fact: the only monopolies that continue to exist as monopolies do so with the HELP of the government (for example, the us postal service has a monopoly on first class mail. or when the long distance phone companies HAD monopolies, since they don't any longer. (and prices have gone WAY down since then))


All other "monopolies" don't stay that way very long, and CERTAINLY aren't able to force people to buy anything they make anyway. If the price is too high, consumers WILL go elsewhere, or go without.

And you probably won't believe any of this, because your communist discussion group leader tells you not to believe it, but that doesn't change the way it is.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Asher
And I'm not sure you understand what proprietary means, you're using it a lot but I don't think you're using it right.

I'm using it in the context of Xunzi from "Human Nature is Evil". Try reading some time.

[Asher]

Sava, that just made my day.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sava
I'm using it in the context of Xunzi from "Human Nature is Evil". Try reading some time.

Why would I need to read a book from Xunzi about one of the most basic things there is? That's probably where you fall short, you rely too much on everyone else's brain instead of yours and jump on a bandwagon.

Greed is the whole reason communism doesn't work. It's why it failed in the USSR.

Greed is a natural instinct of both mothers and fathers to hoard resources for their family for their own survival.

Sharing is most certainly not a natural instinct, it's a learned trait.

But of course, a book from Xunzi apparently disagrees so obviously this is false.

[Sava]

Originally posted by connorkimbro
Wheres this fantastical fictional greed monster who controls the entire worlds supply of money, sava?

drop your stereotypical blather at the door please...

Fact: the only monopolies that continue to exist as monopolies do so with the HELP of the government (for example, the us postal service has a monopoly on first class mail. or when the long distance phone companies USED to have monopolies)

That's exactly my point. I'm urging people to vote and take back their government.

All other "monopolies" don't stay that way very long, and CERTAINLY aren't able to force people to buy anything they make anyway. If the price is too high, consumers WILL go elsewhere, or go without.

ahem... the oil industry is a collection of monopolies that collectively set the market on oil. They pay off automakers to not introduce fuel efficient, or alternative fuel vehicles.

And you probably won't believe any of this, because your communist discussion group leader tells you not to believe it, but that doesn't change the way it is.

Bah, I am the discussion group leader

disclaimer: If you plan on arguing against me, don't be ignorant, and prepare to have intelligent rebuttles. Swatting flies isn't much of a challenge for me.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Sava


Greed is not part of human nature, it is a learned behavior. For two million years, up until the last few hundred, human beings had a very communal existence with the planet and each other. Nomadic and agrarian tribes of people populated vast areas, taking only what they needed and left the rest. But with the rise of European Imperialism, the Western world has turned into a vicious swarm of locusts. America is just the most successful spawn of this. You should really learn about human history before you go spouting off what you claim to be human nature.

You have a much more inspired and benign outlook on human nature than I. Since we have very limitted historical information to base the whole sweep of human history (I don't know how one can say what peoples motive were 2 million years ago) making conjecture on prehistorical folks motivations is problematic. What we can do is try to look at those folks not spoiled, tainted by their environment. A child by nature is one of the greediest creatures. Only by learned behavior can one curb the natural behaviors and teach a child to share. I purport that it is man's base nature that normally exists and only through environmental conditioning is it reigned in. I think that man's base motives ultimately become the strongest drivers.

[Starchild]

Also (just remembered!) in nature, symbiosis and cooperation can benefit just as much, if not more than competition. All advanced life is based on the fact that two ancient cells forgoed competing and cooperated, trading one's talents with oxygen respiration for the safe haven of the other's cytoplasm. Multicellular creatures are only possible due to the communal sharing of resources between cells.

The moral of the story? Don't use nature to justify your economic views. We biologists then start quoting stuff and dithering on and no body really wins.

*we know return to your regularly scheduled *****ing*

[Sava]

Originally posted by Asher

Why would I need to read a book from Xunzi about one of the most basic things there is? That's probably where you fall short, you rely too much on everyone else's brain instead of yours and jump on a bandwagon.

Greed is the whole reason communism doesn't work. It's why it failed in the USSR.

Greed is a natural instinct of both mothers and fathers to hoard resources for their family for their own survival.

Sharing is most certainly not a natural instinct, it's a learned trait.

But of course, a book from Xunzi apparently disagrees so obviously this is false.

pfft, again, you should read the disclaimer, its too easy for me to point out your basic ignorance... I'm quoting other people on such things as philosophy and sociology become they have spent their lives studying such issues; I have not. A wise person admits their own ignorance and learns from others.

Hmmmm, who do I believe, a philosophical scholar, or some 19 year old twit who probably doesn't read anything outside of PopCulture mags and video game web sites.

[Sava]

The only inate human quality that could be described as nature would be survival. A human will be greedy and take what it needs to survive. But the type of greed exhibited in modern humans (i.e. capitalism) is learned.

[DrSpike]

What an idiotic initial post.

Pay broadly follows productivity. Firms charge only what people are willing to pay.

Most markets are not monopolies, and those that are are regulated, albeit badly at times.

Don't know where you got the boeing example from, it clearly isn't true.

Profit signals, far from being evil are PRECISELY the thing that ensures the economy produces the goods you demand.

FACT: capitalism has lead to an increase in living standards that dwarfs anything any alternative could have offered.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Starchild
I'm never sure why people are so eager to refer to capitalism in terms of Darwinism. Darwinism isn't a very good thing endear an economic system to people as ecologies basically balance on a knife edge. One slip in the balance and ecologies come crashing down. Hell, they all come crashing down eventually. Evolution only works due to the fact that, given enough time, dumb luck will work in your favour.

I'd hope that capitalism is a bit more stable than that.

So your telling me that whole sectors of industry never collapse?

And yes, time is the key element in both.

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Sava
Yup, I see I have the classic moronic responses; but note, no intelligent arguments against my posts.

When I get back from looking for my second job....(something that wouldn't happen in communism) I'll tell you why you are so misguided.

[Starchild]

No, I'm saying that in evolution, dumb luck is an overriding factor and that I'd hope the global economic system would be organised along better lines than random chance.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Sava
The only inate human quality that could be described as nature would be survival. A human will be greedy and take what it needs to survive. But the type of greed exhibited in modern humans (i.e. capitalism) is learned.

Couldn't disagree further, the myth of humans being noble by nature. Humans desire survival and once that is secured desire power to ensure a sort of immortality.

[DinoDoc]

Greed is Good!