How much is Pottery worth?

[Dominae]

I know this is going to be fixed in Play the World, but I just wanted to show silly the AI can with respect to Worker trading.

I'm playing the Zulus. It's 3700BC, and I've just come across the Romans. Due to the AI pathing algorithm, Rome's 2 Workers (I'm playing on Emperor) have ended their turn inside the capital (my Scout was around to witness this). I contact Ceasar, and here's the deal that we settle on:

Shaka: Pottery
Caesar: 2 Workers, 35 Gold

Will I have any trouble with the Romans this game? No.


Dominae


P.S: If someone could tell me how to post screenshots so they aren't all blurry, I'll glady post one of the above situation.

[Dominae]

Test.

[Dominae]

Hope this shows a nice screenshot:

[Theseus]

Can we say military road to the north? Can we say Archer Rush?

At this level, it really is an exploit. I now limit myself to one purchased Worker per AI civ.

BTW, are you at 10 science?

[Dominae]

Theseus, I was thinking about the quick road and Archer rush myself, but decided to try a different alternative: I got the foreign Workers to grow the pop of my capital in order to conduct some serious early-game REXing. I now have 4 cities and am a few turns away from a couple of new Settlers, while Rome just founded their second city. Lizzie to the Northwest also only has 2 cities.

Worker-buying in 1.29f is a definite exploit, it's just been overlooked because the opportunity doesn't arise every game.

As for Science, it is at 100%. I want to get Bronze Working (read: Impi) as quickly as possible. Of course, I'm using the Luxury slider as needed to keep my pop happy as I mass produce Settlers. Is it not a good idea to have Science so high in the early game?


Dominae

[Theseus]

Does it change the speed of research in any way?

I find that 20% science until my capitol hits Level 2, followed by 10% science, is best for the first few techs. At some point, I notice that playing with the science slider can dramatically change research speed, on sort of a parabolic curve, meaning going to 50-60% can cut the time by one-third to one-half, but anything more than that has minimal effect.

As to joining the workers, that's always great too... keep an eye on the citizens in your new towns though, as some might be Roman (not that it matters so early). I do always get a little nervous when I see Rome near hills, though.

[SanPellegrino]

Dominae,

how will it be fixed in PTW? isn't it possible anymore?

[Dominae]

Hm, I haven't given the Science slider much thought in the early-game. I just assumed it was like Civ2 where you wanted 100% Science right away. I guess you have to be producing enough Commerce for the percentages to actually matter (20% of 3 is probably just the same as 30%...) so you may be right that having the Science slider low is the way to go in the early game. Yet another area I have to work on!

SanPellegrino, I heard (though I can't remember where) that Play the World will come with some gameplay/AI tweaks. One of these will be an increased value of Workers to the AI (perhaps only in the early-game?).


Dominae

[Arrian]

I got the foreign Workers to grow the pop of my capital in order to conduct some serious early-game REXing.

Yep, that's how I use 'em too.

Pottery must be worth approximately 85 gold to the AI, then, since in my experience workers are valued at 25-27 gold each.

-Arrian

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Dominae
Hm, I haven't given the Science slider much thought in the early-game. ...

Occasionally checking your Science to see if you can research just as fast with less expenditure will save you lots of cashola, especially when you are down to 1 or 2 turns to getting the tech (or even before). Your beakers do NOT carry over to the next tech.

[DeepO]

Science slider in the first few turns: the first tech can always be researched at 20%, or 10% if one of your cities is at pop 2. Sometimes (depending on what you are researching, the size of the map, and how many civs you encountered with the wanted tech) setting science to 100% can mean you research your first tech in 35 turns instead of 40, but this is the exception. I've seen it happen when building my capital on a gold hill... and even then, 80% gold will mean some 200 gold, which will most likely be enough to purchase a tech from another civ, so you can choose between having 2 techs in 40 turns, or 1 tech in 35...

The second tech depends on the situation: on a small map you gain by setting the slider to 100%, on a huge map 10% is enough. It's only from the third tech on that 100% will make a huge difference.

In the early game, the tech slider has certain sweet spots that are important to cross. The first is the 10 or 20% level, because if your capital produces more then 5 commerce, 10% of that is rounded up to 1 beaker, otherwise you need 20% to gain 1 beaker. That's why setting research to 10% with all your cities at pop 1 doesn't give any research. (you need at least 1 beaker to advance). The next important sweet spot is the 50% level, because it will make the difference in all cities with just 1 commerce: at 50% this will become 1 beaker, below that it's 1 gold. In the beginning, you have a lot of cities with just 1 commerce, certainly when you don't have enough workers for roads, or a spread out empire with lots of corruption.

Other sweet spots are the 30% and 80% levels, but these only count when you have cities with 4 commerce (after corruption). Typically, these become important from the 3rd tech onward.

Note that this not only applies to tech, but to luxury as well: at first, setting lux to 10% doesn't change anything, you need 20% lux for any effect. 30% is also a good position when you need it, as only the largest cities have more then 4 commerce, and those are exactly the ones that need additional lux. The difference between 30% and 20% lux can mean that you only lose 1 or 2 beakers, and only in those cities that would have got entertainers otherwise. Setting lux to above 50% however isn't good to help 1 (wonder) city: you would lose all the research in the smallest cities, who produce lux when they don't need it. Better to have that wondercity get one entertainer, and keep the lux slider at 40%.

DeepO

[Dominae]

Although I unfortunately don't have a specific example to give, in my recent game with the Zulus (again) I checked out the effect of playing with the Science slider early in the game. When you only have 1 city, it doesn't make sense to put it at 100%, I agree. However, if you really do want to get that tech ASAP, 20% just won't cut it. Again, I'll try to dig up an example, but it's the 1 Beaker and 2 Beakers is the sometimes 10-turn research difference. This is even more pronounced when you have 3-4 cities, so I try to keep my Science as high as possible (taking into account upkeep and luxury expenditures). Researching a tech first is, in my experience, far more profitable than buying research-and-purchase. Not only do you keep money out of the future-enemy's pockets, but you can trade the tech around to many civs at once. Delaying in research means that you'll be discovering techs other civs already have and buying others. Of course, this discussion (and hence the whole Science slider question) depends on a lot of factors (number of contacted civs, Commerce in core cities, etc.) that I don't think a definite answer can be given.

Oh, and I started another game as the Zulus because I felt the other one was going to be too easy. Guess what?


Dominae

[Dominae]

How much is Mysticism worth?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dominae
Researching a tech first is, in my experience, far more profitable than buying research-and-purchase. Not only do you keep money out of the future-enemy's pockets, but you can trade the tech around to many civs at once. Delaying in research means that you'll be discovering techs other civs already have and buying others.

Well... in most of my games, this doesn't apply. Of course, it depends on certain factors, especially the size of the map: I play most games on large or huge maps, so that I sometimes get my first 40 turn tech before encountering any other civ. It will be a lot different on tiny maps.

But, at any rate, when you start you can be more or less sure that someone else already has the techs you have, in a game with multiple civs all the level 1 techs are known to a civ. So, you're already behind anyway... The only thing you can do to prevent this from getting worse is researching level 2 techs (writing when you got alphabet for free, for instance, or iron working after bronze working) so that you get in front again. Writing is a very good choice here, as most civs will focus on other techs first, even if it takes you 80 turns to get it, you will be able to trade it (not at deity).

I agree that giving money to future enemies is not the best thing, but you can always take it back later. Further, while in despotism, upgrading and tech buying are the only two uses of gold, you typically can't trade for resources in the early game (no road connection yet), so it is rather safe to give money to another civ in order to fill the research gaps. I like that more then giving them important techs, like ironworking to the Romans. So, it depends... I will gladly buy workers from the AI, and will most of the times use gold for this, not techs.

BTW Giving mysticism for 2 workers is not a very good deal if the oracle hasn't been built yet: AIs will pay around 4-500 gold on a huge map for it, not some 70 like in your case. But then again, you have much more use from the two workers then he will have from mysticism, so if you don't have any cash, go for it

DeepO

[Dominae]

DeepO, I play mostly on Standard maps. This means that the AI civs contact each much quicker, and thus progress through the tech tree much faster. Thus, if I don't put as many Beakers as I possibly can into a level 2 tech (Writing is a perfect example), it will often be discovered and traded before I discover it myself. So, I feel justified in putting a lot into Science right away, just to get some good deals on techs (the only way to keep up on Emperor...never tried Deity).

Concerning Worker trading and Mysticism, I concur that my second example is not quite as absurd as the first; Mysticism is worth more than Pottery, and the game is far more advanced. In my games, the AI will pay anywhere between 100-200 Gold for Mysticism. The point is that I doubt you'd ever find a human player that would trade 2 Workers for Mysticism. Obviously I would use cash if I could, but I still think the trade falls heavily in my favor. Workers simply aren't priced high enough.


Dominae

[DeepO]

Oh, but I agree completely that the workers are underpriced, especially in the early game. I would never sell a worker for any tech, up until literature... after that, workers are easy replacable. I found your example of pottery quite amusing, I have never gotten 2 workers for it...

On standard maps, things change, I agree. But still, I will always research my first tech at 1 beaker if possible, and safe some cash. The second and third techs can then be set to 100%, even if you run a deficit you can keep up the research. But still... writing isn't that important, it's literature that counts. And on Emperor I have still to encounter the game in which I didn't was the first to get it, it is ignored by the AIs. So with 2 techs at 40 turns, and literature at maximum (~20-25 turns), it can be done... if you are commercial and start with alphabet, it is even easy. I either buy the rest of the techs (especially bronze working for protection, or warrior code for an archer rush), or I extort them from the AIs... and once I get the GL, nothing can keep me from being the tech leader

The cost of mysticism: 200 gold seems to be alright on standard maps, lower then that means that the AI you're selling to already has it partly researched. But I don't know if you researched this yourself, just to be able to trade it, or if you gained it from a hut... I don't risk to research it in my games as the AIs will go for it as well. Plus, the Oracle is IMO the most useless wonder of the ancient times, I very rarely build it (it must have been half a year when I last did this). So... it's a nice tech to trade away, and gaining two workers from it doesn't seem to be a bad deal, even if the AIs will pay you more if they could.

DeepO

[VenomLord]

yeah, 20%-10% does the trick for me (i usually research iron working first up which ends up costing 40 no matter where i put the slider) and by the time its done i usually have enough surplus gold to buy an aditional tech of the AI