DoSE Choices: What should we switch to (if anything)?

[Method]

Originally posted by AdamTG02
Archaic: You're right that in SMAC Golden Age doesn't give a growth bonus. However, it does give an energy bonus, the equivalent of +1 Econ. That's what we're discussing -- whether to go FM or Wealth + GA, which essentially amount to the same Econ score.

exactly

[Maniac]

Just a nitpick: I think SMAC GA does give +2 Growth, but it doesn't result in a population boom. We would stay at +5 Growth.

[Method]

either way, it (for the most part) defeats the purpose of GA

[Maniac]

One of the reasons I think we should play SMAX if we ever do a second demo game.

[Method]

that and several other bugs, the maintainance bug being one of them (though i'm not sure what it does, i just know it's bad )

[Archaic]

It means that on the higher difficulty levels (Like the one we're on now I believe), instead of losing credits in maintence for facilities, we actually *recieve* credits. Therefore more facilities = more cash.

Adam, we'd have to spend more than we'd bring in from GA's to set them off at this point to begin with, and potentially suffer a slower tech rate as well. Unfortunatly, Maniac's mistaken there also. GA's give no growth bonus whatsoever under SMAC.

Like I said before, the best plan currently is Demo ASAP (ie. If and when we can take the support hit on production - We'd be able to do that only with the extra commerce income with Morgan under FM + Pact) and FM ASAP. Using the short trips to Frontier and Planned as I outlined earlier, we can get their benifits without the -2 Effic detraction. Just for that fact, there's no reason whatsoever to go Planned full time unless you want to provoke a war with Morgan. (Which could be better done by giving him orders to remove troops from our territories, etc).

[Method]

Originally posted by Archaic
GA's give no growth bonus whatsoever under SMAC.

are you absolutely sure? that really sucks

[Method]

Originally posted by Maniac
Why don't we just hold a poll on going Wealth right now?

[Maniac]

Switching to Planned just before building a base and then switching back next turn doesn't pay. It would cost us 64 ec for a mere 10 minerals.

[Frankychan]

Planned and Democracy.

Even though running Planned will make Morgan against us, I think our faction is strong enough right now to stand up to his military. If we switch to FM, I am worried that the almost guaranteed drone riots are going to hurt our production as well as growth....i don't think our faction needs something as large as faction-wide riots right now.

The resulting PopBoom (IMHO) would expand our faction early on which would give us more colony pods....and so and so forth.

[Mr. President]

You're bound to step on someone's toes when you defend your national interest. Inflamed overseas opinions might imply you're doing something right.

Morgan will get over it, particularly if I can convince the government to liberalize the economy later.

[GeneralTacticus]

It's only +1 EC, not +2. Not enough to give +1 Energy per square. It only gives +1 Energy per *base* square. It's hardly worth it unless you're under FM (Under which you're at +3 EC, giving +1 Energy per square and +1 Commerce (Even more trade with Morgan!), unless you *really* need the +1 Industry.

Under GA, it is +2.

STOP ****ING OVERSTATING THE PROBLEM!

Di I mention stacked worms? My goodness, I can't find it anywhere in my above posts. I mentioned MULTIPLE worms. Take your own advice and read my post. You seem to be very keen on using independant units for exploration (hell, so am I), and they die quickly enough under worm attack without FM. There's no need to make the problem worse.

Now, do I think this makes FM unviable? No. It's just a point against it which must be considered.

And if anything, we'd gain growth. Specialists take 1 Nut to feed, workers 2. We'd be under Demo under my current scheme of things anyway, and we can use the switch to gain Planned bonuses as needed.

*BZZZZT* Specialists take up just as much food as a normal citizen. No idea where you got that from.

The bases would get to size even quicker, and be even more productive than they'd be under your simplictic Planned only system

Once again, take your own advice. I did not even ****ing ONCE mention Planned. I want to stay simple until we can build some Rec commons and recall the scouts, then switch to FM.

Then we can take the bloody projects from them later, when warmongering Pan gets his way. But it wouldn't come to that. You're overstating yet another problem. So what if you've seen AI bases with higher production than that before? They can't have them at this stage of the game, and you know it. They're also getting less of an Industry bonus due to our difficulty level.

I've seen them only slightly past this stage of the game. Just because YOU haven't seen something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Like I said before, the best plan currently is Demo ASAP (ie. If and when we can take the support hit on production - We'd be able to do that only with the extra commerce income with Morgan under FM + Pact) and FM ASAP. Using the short trips to Frontier and Planned as I outlined earlier, we can get their benifits without the -2 Effic detraction. Just for that fact, there's no reason whatsoever to go Planned full time unless you want to provoke a war with Morgan. (Which could be better done by giving him orders to remove troops from our territories, etc).

I (gasp) actually agree with you here.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Maniac
Switching to Planned just before building a base and then switching back next turn doesn't pay. It would cost us 64 ec for a mere 10 minerals.

Never said to do that. I said to switch out of demo the turn before building a base, then switching back to Demo the turn after. Apparently, our switches are only 16EC each for some reason (I think it's 32 also, but this is what I'm being told by someone who has the turn. I'm having problems downloading ATM.). 32EC for 10 minerals at each base we plant on that turn (I'm sure we could co-ordinate it to get 3 or 4 at least) is well worth it.

Originally posted by Frankychan
Even though running Planned will make Morgan against us, I think our faction is strong enough right now to stand up to his military.

With what Military of our own?

If we switch to FM, I am worried that the almost guaranteed drone riots are going to hurt our production as well as growth....i don't think our faction needs something as large as faction-wide riots right now.

The Drone Riots are anything but guaranteed. They've been over sensationalised by the Socialists.
Production and Growth won't suffer with the Planned switch trick.
There will be *no* faction-wide riots.

The resulting PopBoom (IMHO) would expand our faction early on which would give us more colony pods....and so and so forth.

Pop-Booms happen with Planned + Demo + CC + +2 Nut surplus. Until we have that at several bases, there's no point in having an extended period in Planned.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Under GA, it is +2.

1) We don't have Wealth Yet
2) Causing a GA would cost us more in lost cash flow and research than we'd net from the GA's.

Di I mention stacked worms? My goodness, I can't find it anywhere in my above posts. I mentioned MULTIPLE worms. Take your own advice and read my post. You seem to be very keen on using independant units for exploration (hell, so am I), and they die quickly enough under worm attack without FM. There's no need to make the problem worse.

Now, do I think this makes FM unviable? No. It's just a point against it which must be considered.

Multipule worms from popped pods. Wopdidiedo. I covered them too in my previous post, so you should've read this already. If you weren't popping pods so far from bases, that'd never happen. Under my staggered exploration model (Using Probes, plus Independant Units if possible), there's no chance of such worms appearing. (These things were tested by and comfirmed by gamers better than us all long ago people!)

Is it a point against FM? Yes. But only if you're using the wrong strategy.

*BZZZZT* Specialists take up just as much food as a normal citizen. No idea where you got that from.

Hmmmm.....after some checking, I stand corrected. I know this has been discussed many times by others both here and on CGN though. Perhaps it was a part of one of the many mods people have created to make the game more difficult. Oh well. It makes no difference to my basic arguement.

Once again, take your own advice. I did not even ****ing ONCE mention Planned. I want to stay simple until we can build some Rec commons and recall the scouts, then switch to FM.

I know who the people are who've voted for FM. You were not one of them. It was a reasonable assumption.

What I am saying is that all we need to do is recall the scouts. With our +1 Talent, Drone riots will be staved off until we can build the Rec Commons, which we can do quicker using the FM bonuses to cash flow.

I've seen them only slightly past this stage of the game. Just because YOU haven't seen something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I've seen it. It's just so bloody rare that it's pointless to make accounting for such a slim possibility part of your main plan. It ties up too much production better spent elsewhere.

I (gasp) actually agree with you here.

Which is why you didn't vote for it? *Points up* However, I don't agree with your definition of ASAP for FM. We don't need those Rec Commons as quickly as you seem to think. We can get them after we switch.

[AdamTG02]

I think the support for Free Market is more than this poll indicates, but most of those supporting FM don't want to switch to it immediately, which is what a vote for FM in this poll would do.

[GeneralTacticus]

I know who the people are who've voted for FM. You were not one of them. It was a reasonable assumption.

No, it wasn't, as not voting for FM isn't the same as voting for Planned.

I've seen it. It's just so bloody rare that it's pointless to make accounting for such a slim possibility part of your main plan. It ties up too much production better spent elsewhere.

Regardless of that, the fact is that we ARE in the middle of building 2 atm, with one of them so far advanced that it would a gross waste of minerals if we switch.

Which is why you didn't vote for it? *Points up* However, I don't agree with your definition of ASAP for FM. We don't need those Rec Commons as quickly as you seem to think. We can get them after we switch.

We can ge them before we switch as well, if we spend a few ECs, of which we have an abundant supply already.

[quote]1) We don't have Wealth Yet/quote]

We will in 4 turns.

2) Causing a GA would cost us more in lost cash flow and research than we'd net from the GA's.

Wouldn't that depend on the base in question?

[Archaic]

No, it wasn't, as not voting for FM isn't the same as voting for Planned.

Never said it was. Just said it was a reasonable assumption that if you didn't vote for FM, you voted for Planned.
I hope Adam is right, and people misinterpreted the poll (ie. We want FM ASAP, but of course we know we can't have it immediatly. It'd take a while to pull those scouts back to within borders.), but with the left wing presence here...

Regardless of that, the fact is that we ARE in the middle of building 2 atm, with one of them so far advanced that it would a gross waste of minerals if we switch.

I never said we should switch. I said we shouldn't have started on them in the first place. Now that we *have* started work on them though, we obviously can't change out of them, so that has to be factored into our plans.

We can ge them before we switch as well, if we spend a few ECs, of which we have an abundant supply already.

I'm aware of that, however you'd not said you supported building and rushing all of them. I still say going to FM will get the job faster. It depends on how many Rec Commons we could build while recalling the scouts. Can we get all of them?

Wouldn't that depend on the base in question?

At this stage in the game? Not really. None of our bases have the necessary supportive infrastructure to make it worth our while at the present point in time.

[AdamTG02]

With Wealth, FM would give an energy for each base square worked, minus one.

However, it would cost half the citizens, rounded up, doubled, in Psych.

This comes as a surprise to me, doing the math, but . . . if we didn't have to invest in Psych anyway, to quell drone riots, it wouldn't be worth the cost.

After Hologram Theatres and Research Hospitals, as you say, the situation is different.

[Archaic]

Even after Rec Commons the situation's very different. And what's the status of the Drone Helping projects BTW? They'll help greatly also.