Corruption in Democracy - expanding to new continent

Aqualung71 · October 21, 2002, 02:47

Somebody help me!!!

After dominating my home continent, I decided to strike out and establish a base on the other major continent on my world.

I've put together about 6 cities by settlement or conquest now on the new continent (I guess about 30 on the old one), however I can't build anything!

I am using democracy, with my palace and forbidden palace both on the first continent. On the second continent, no matter how many people there are in my cities, all production shields except one are red (ie, wasted production). There is no way I can change this by re-allocating my workers between different city squares. So, it will take me 60 turns just to get a granary in any city on the new continent.

I "rush-produced" the courthouse in several of these cities, costing me a fortune, but it made no difference at all. I even rush produced the temple hoping it would make the citizens happier and produce more, but still can't get more than one producing shield. Of course, I can't switch my palace to the new continent, because that's about 400 turns, and you can't rush build it.

Is there some blindingly obvious strategy I am missing? I must admit, I've only just bought Civ III and am addicted to it, so maybe there's something I haven't understood when the civlopedia says that there is "minimal" corruption and waste in a democracy!

would really appreciate an answer.....my attempts to show the other pathetic civs who's boss are being frustrated by this problem!

Cheers
thriller

vmxa1 · October 21, 2002, 02:56

The only real way to make them productive it to build your palace on that contient. If it is big enough to justify that. The best way to accomplish this is with a leader to rush it. That is why some people put the FP close to the original palace, so when they make a new one and lose the original, those core cities will not suffer too much. If you are quite late in the game, just let the new cities limp along with just a temple.

Demerzel · October 21, 2002, 03:03

having commercial as one of your civ's traits sure does help, plus having courthouses and police stations too to some extent. However, regardless of the modifiers above coupled even with the least affected goverment type democracy, oversea cities are normally corruption riddled "forts".

What I mean by that is I find that the first city for me on a new continent is my entry point for troops and has an airport built if I've reached that tech level or if not, transports dropping off troops there. Then my troops simple fan out from that point, conquer another city, subdue & consolidate it and then use that as another "fort" jump off point where troops can heal & be defended. At no time do I expect the remote cities to ever really provide any meaningful manufacturing capacity for my empire.

The idea of preventing remote cities from being good production wise is to prevent Infinite City Sprawl but sometimes I have to admit that having all my oversea cities in my enlightened democratic empire producing 5 or 6 shields with 15 plus corrupted is a tad bit annoying.

C'mon Firaxis, surely there can be a better way to prevent ICS than making half your cities corruption filled cesspits? Forbidden Palaces are useful and being able to move the Palace too but when you don't have a GL to spare ( mebbe because you're a pacifist and are expanding peacefully for resources ) then having to wait 140 - 200 turns for a palace to build is just fubar.

WarpStorm · October 21, 2002, 07:11

Communism. It has it's flaws, but it is how you can make a big empire productive.

Forget the conventional wisdom that it sucks. It doesn't if you use it under the right circumstances. Taking over a second continent is the right circumstances.

Yes, you will take a gold/tech hit. Yes, your core cities will be 3/4 as productive as before. Yes, you will get to support 8 units per city for free. Yes, you will be able to develop those newly conquered territories.

I find that once I develop the non-core cities to full productivity under Communism (something you shouldn't do under Democracy, a waste of shields) my shield production can be double or even triple what it was under Democracy for a big enough empire.

Under Communism, there is no core.

aahz_capone · October 21, 2002, 07:16

I loath communism. I hate seing my capitol have a quarter of its shields slip away...

But you are riught, sometimes it's the only way. I find it despciable that an enlightened democracy could have so much corruption even WITH commercial trait, courthouse, and police. So much in fact that I've lost patience gaming on huge maps. Now if you could build more then one FP then I could arrange something, but I tend to not get so many GLs....

bongo · October 21, 2002, 08:34

Maybe a second FP after city #25 would be an idea for the next patch?

Until then you have but two options, stay in republic/democracy so your core cities can give you all the production/gold/science you need or switch to communism. As WarpStorm pointed out, you have to choose the right government for the situation. Conquering another continent IS the right situation for communism.

jshelr · October 21, 2002, 08:45

In real life and in civ III you can't expect conquered people or lands far from home to add much to the homefront's capacity. It doesn't happen. Never has. Never will. As the good comment above suggests, communism/fascism is the only answer -- and it's a bad answer most of the time. You are essentially limited to what your two core rings of cities are able to do. That's all folks. The rest is for resource gathering and opponent elimination.

SpencerH · October 21, 2002, 10:01

Just never bother to colonize other continents

bongo · October 22, 2002, 07:05

I invade(and conquer) other continents of four reasons.

1 Weaken other civs.
2 Capture importent wonders.
3 Capture luxury/strategic resources.
4 Increase my own territory

Note that 'Increase my own production/wealth/science' is not one of my goals, because I know that in the late part of the game those (corrupt) new cities will add very little production power to your empire. Just disband units/rush production to get those few buildings you need(temple/library/walls/harbor/airport/barracks)

Zachriel · October 22, 2002, 08:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Thriller
Somebody help me!!!

I've put together about 6 cities by settlement or conquest now on the new continent (I guess about 30 on the old one), however I can't build anything!

Historically, colonies were used just for their raw materials. North America produced tobacco; South America produced silver; Africa slaves; Asia spices. Why expect colonies to be capable of manufacturing productivity? If you need a Harbor or City Walls, just buy it with the profits from the trade of your resources; or dig into your treasury.

WarpStorm · October 22, 2002, 08:16

I often expand my empire to increase culture. Even totally corrupt cities generate culture points at the normal rate. Sure, you usually have to rush build those temples and libraries, but it's amazing hopw different the game is if you have a solid culture lead.

BillChin · October 23, 2002, 01:24

Best way to combat corruption is to limit the number of cities in your empire. Courthouses, police stations and We-Love-the-King-Day help a great deal, if a player keeps the optimal city number in mind (see editor for the number for each map size and difficulty level).

A well centered Palace and Forbidden Palace help. Many players have one on each continent for a two-continent empire.

Communism is very weak, especially on higher difficulty levels (Emperor, Deity). If your goal is winning the game in an efficient manner, Communism is rarely a good option. If your goal is to build a few buildings in outlying provinces, you are often better off raising gold in Democracy and rushing them with gold. If your goal is to build a large empire just for personal satisfaction, Communism is okay.

Communism is the weakest form of government in Civ III and shunned by most experienced players. It is one reason that human players are able to catch up to the AI in the Industrial Age. If Communism does not get a major overhaul for PTW, I expect many games will end without it ever even being researched. (Though one player may get it for Theory of Evolution.)
- Bill

bongo · October 23, 2002, 03:38

I totally agree, communism is close to useless. Except in the rare case where you will be waging a LONG war and cannot afford the war weariness but can afford the drop in science and wealth. Invading another continent for a domination victory may be the right situation.

Kind of ironic but if your civ has the religious trait communism is a lot more valuable(as a war government)

star mouse · October 23, 2002, 05:16

One thing that can be done ... if you disband the city with the Forbidden Palace, you can build it again. I did this in one game.

aaglo · October 23, 2002, 07:25

What if a city has great wonders? Can you disband them? Can you build those wonders again?

WarpStorm · October 23, 2002, 08:01

Quote:

Originally posted by BillChin
If Communism does not get a major overhaul for PTW, I expect many games will end without it ever even being researched. (Though one player may get it for Theory of Evolution.)

Warpstorms MP strategy that will tick you off - research Communism and declare war with everyone who is using a representative gov't and don't end it ever.

Dr Strangelove · October 23, 2002, 22:32

It is use the editor to increase the maximum number of cities permitted, but I found that the corruption problem in distant continents was still prohibitive. I noted in the last game that it was possible to set the corruption percentage, but I left it alone. Does anyone know how this editor function affects corruption in distant cities?

wvfoos · October 24, 2002, 00:49

Well, I set the corruption to 80% (or maybe 75, i forget) and I'm having problems on large map, pangea. Of course, I DO have god knows how many cities, and they are strung ALL over the continent. That's in a democracy.

I've been thinking, and I might try this later. Ive got a pretty good science base, lots of libs and univs. I might go into communism, and see how the outlying cities perform.

I wish there was a "total" column was available to see your cities' (ie, all cities added together) shield, commerce, science, gold, etc. production. That way, you could see if you were better off in a democracy, taking the huge hit on the outlying cities, but powerhouse inner cities, as opposed to getting more production out of those outlying ones and taking the hit at home under communism.

Is there any way to tell how many cities you have without simply counting them? I'm sure I"m over the optimal number, but have no idea how to check.

Inverse Icarus · October 24, 2002, 00:55

im assuming you have harbors? you know they lower corruption too (cities connected to capitols have less corruption)

vmxa1 · October 24, 2002, 01:31

Quote:

Originally posted by aaglo
What if a city has great wonders? Can you disband them? Can you build those wonders again?

I nevr disbanded a city with a wonder, only razed them.
Load a game that you have and see, I would think so though. You can not build a great wonder after is gone. No matter who built it in the first place.

bongo · October 24, 2002, 02:40

What's the optimal number of cities on a normal map? Spied on a french city away from its home continent and noticed that waste and corruption were at about 50%. It was a size 10 city with courthouse, harbor, temple, marketplace and 5 luxuries. The french has about 10-12 cities at their home continent and three overseas. Monarch level, does the AI have some corruption-advantages over human player?

vmxa1 · October 24, 2002, 03:17

I forget, but look at the editor to see. Doesn't matter to me as I am going to get as many as I can. Don't forget the French have commercial and they will have less corruption than other non commercial civs.

WarpStorm · October 24, 2002, 06:00

Quote:

Originally posted by bongo
Monarch level, does the AI have some corruption-advantages over human player?

They always play the game at regent level rules.

Chemical Ollie · October 24, 2002, 06:13

No one here seem to have thought of the reduced corruption in the later upgrade patches. Thriller, you wrote that you just bought the game - I assume you are playing without patches, right?

Download the 1.29 patch. It will help.

WarpStorm · October 24, 2002, 07:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre
Download the 1.29 patch. It will help.

A lot.

alva · October 24, 2002, 08:47

Quote:

Warpstorms MP strategy that will tick you off - research Communism and declare war with everyone who is using a representative gov't and don't end it ever.

good tactic, but, War Weariness does kick in until you do some actuall fighting. You can wars for centuries in Democracy without ever noticing

btw: WLTK only helps for wasted shields not for corruption IIRC

WarpStorm · October 24, 2002, 08:52

A token unit pillaging in your country is all it takes to trigger WW.

Yes, I think WLTKD only effects sheilds but that's what most people whine about anyway, the fact they build stuff there.

bongo · October 24, 2002, 10:17

WarpStorm I don't think your tactic will work unless you are #1 in power and focus entirily on war. Even then it may be difficult. OTH, you WILL get others to hate you

WarpStorm · October 24, 2002, 10:33

Quote:

Originally posted by bongo
WarpStorm I don't think your tactic will work unless you are #1 in power and focus entirily on war. Even then it may be difficult. OTH, you WILL get others to hate you

And your point is?

Remember there can only be one winner.

Seriously, if you go that route, you may as well go for full mobilization and start cranking out the units (remember you can support 8 per city for free).

You don't have to go to war with everyone for this (admittedly kinda cheesey) tactic to be successful, just those in the lead. In fact, the number 2 player may be very easy to convince to turn a blind eye if not actively aid you (at least till he's number 1).

alva · October 24, 2002, 11:33

you do seem to have alot of expirience regarding MP

EDIT:
* removed as promised *