Zooming

aahz_capone · October 21, 2002, 06:30

I know this has little to do with the gameplay, but I seem to miss it more and more. Anc I'm talking about the multiple zoom options you had in civ2. In civ3 there are only normal, and one zoom out level. thats a shame. I used to love zooming way in for huge consentrated battles, and zoom way out to plan my overall strategy.

So how else misses that effeect in civ 3 and could it be reincorperated or is that too much work?

Todd Hawks · October 21, 2002, 07:02

I don't. I even don't use the zoom that IS available. *shrug*

But that's just me.

Tiberius · October 21, 2002, 07:04

I'm "zooming" a banana right now, with milk.
Yam-yam.

Adm.Naismith · October 21, 2002, 09:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Todd Hawks
I don't. I even don't use the zoom that IS available. *shrug*
But that's just me.

Me too, in fact.

More than "zoom" feature, I'd like a "layer view" where I should see at a glance:
- corruption gradient (different color for different corrution level on territory, so I can guess the effect of settling a new town in border territory).
- revenue (gold) distribution (same as above, for showing trade+tax gain). It should use the city radius as focus point for colour level.
- production (shield) distribution (ditto)
- happyiness distribution (ditto)
- military defense (computing with the military power algorithm for a unit, added on every square in movement range)
- attack radius (considering attack range, specially for artillery, planes bombing, missiles)

Some of the map will be quite long to compute (especially the range/movement effect) but will be invaluable to have a better geographical feel than any Advisor screen.

On a different kind of map and combat/building ruleset, zooming and rotation will fit better, not on Civ III IMHO.

Tiberius · October 21, 2002, 09:54

The only possible situation where I imagine myself wanting to zoom in (and I mean in detail) would be in "capture the princess" games

*sigh* Oh my, I just can't abstain making silly jokes.

Tiberius · October 21, 2002, 10:08

This is very, very annoying. I've lost my post twice

and obviously didn't "save" it

*sigh* Again:
Hey Admiral, you're talking about Caesar (Pharaoh, Zeus)

That would be nice

Bella Hella · October 21, 2002, 11:41

i zoom out when i have to get a LOT of units from one side of the continent to the other via railroad. that way i don't have to keep moving the screen over to click on the place i want them to go. it would be nice to have different views, though.

Adm.Naismith - that's an EXCELLENT idea. i wish they had included the views you describe (like in simcity).

aahz_capone · October 21, 2002, 11:44

Actually, when I read Admiral's post I started thinking Sim City 3000: another grandious waste of time according to my parents, but I think a must buy for anyone running for mayor.

The idea of layers showing tax distribution and corruption etc rocks! I heard that Sim City 4 will be comeing out shortly and an adition to that is neighbourhoods, and differentiating taxes and the like between them. Maybe an idea for civ4? You could have people living in the rich, productive center pay more taxes then in the "suburbs"of your empire, there by enticing population flow to the country if you your cap gets overcrowded, or the opther way around if you need more labour hands in your factories.

wvfoos · October 21, 2002, 15:23

Another map feature is one I like that is in Railroad Tycoon 2. There, you can turn on and off individual "resources" (to put it in terms civ players understand).

So, say you have a cattle farm (in rr2, not civ3), and you need to see where the packing plants are. You can eliminate all the map clutter EXCEPT packing plants.

For example, it would be nice to see where Iron and coal are together, or if you need a source of coal or whatever, you could eliminate scrolling the map "looking" for it.

Alex · October 21, 2002, 15:53

I don't mind about the zoom option. I thought I would miss it, but I didn't.

But we could have a zoom option in the city view. That would be interesting, with some more features implemented in it.

Adm.Naismith · October 21, 2002, 16:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Tiberius
The only possible situation where I imagine myself wanting to zoom in (and I mean in detail) would be in "capture the princess" games

Me too, me too!

Tiberius, you are a genius.

Adm.Naismith · October 21, 2002, 16:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Tiberius
Hey Admiral, you're talking about Caesar (Pharaoh, Zeus)

Damn, a good idea and someone already had stolen from me in the past!

(j/k of course)

Well, I never played Zeus, may be I tried a demo of Pharaoh; I played the first Simcity but not Sim 3000.
Now, if it's a so good idea and so many have used already, why Firaxis' developers never used it?

Also a focus on resources (coal+iron combo over everything else, of course) is a good view filter, wvfoos.

ducki · October 22, 2002, 00:58

Technically, I shouldn't have answered "Yes" since I didn't play Civ2, BUT, I do wish I could zoom out a little bit more, so see the whole world, or very nearly so.

nationalist · October 22, 2002, 01:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Adm.Naismith

Me too, in fact.

More than "zoom" feature, I'd like a "layer view" where I should see at a glance:
- corruption gradient (different color for different corrution level on territory, so I can guess the effect of settling a new town in border territory).
- revenue (gold) distribution (same as above, for showing trade+tax gain). It should use the city radius as focus point for colour level.
- production (shield) distribution (ditto)
- happyiness distribution (ditto)
- military defense (computing with the military power algorithm for a unit, added on every square in movement range)
- attack radius (considering attack range, specially for artillery, planes bombing, missiles)

Some of the map will be quite long to compute (especially the range/movement effect) but will be invaluable to have a better geographical feel than any Advisor screen.

On a different kind of map and combat/building ruleset, zooming and rotation will fit better, not on Civ III IMHO.

Wow! These are some really great ideas! I hope that some Firaxian notices them. They would be a great addition for the next upgrade.

Jaybe · October 22, 2002, 01:48

I rarely used the multiple zooms in Civ2, and after a year of playing '3' I have gotten used to the zoom levels. I voted "who is 'zoom'."

vmxa1 · October 22, 2002, 02:46

I do not recall ever using zoom in civ2.

Tiberius · October 22, 2002, 04:25

Without any joking now, this is really a great idea, Admiral.
It would be very useful in planning your FP placement or capitol jump, or generally managing your empire.

One more layer I'd like to see is the "culture" layer. The more culturally "powerful" a civ/region would be, the darkest (or brighter) the layer would become.
One more idea: having a spy, we should be able to see this culture layer for enemy civs, which would allow us to guess more accurately the possibility of a flip.

aahz_capone · October 22, 2002, 05:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexnm
I don't mind about the zoom option. I thought I would miss it, but I didn't.

But we could have a zoom option in the city view. That would be interesting, with some more features implemented in it.

Speaking of which, it would be cool if you could implement Sim City into your civ cities. Then you could micromanage cities as well as empires! And since Sim City 4000 will be implementing The Sims into SimCity, you could have a game within a game within a game! Infact with SimCity, The Sims and Civ you could control every little detail down to the individual thought process! Be the Ultimate Autocracy!!!

MUH HA HAHAAHAAHAHAAAAA!!!

Alex · October 22, 2002, 08:08

@ capone: yes, that would be the micromanager's dream, wouldn't it?

Quote:

Now, if it's a so good idea and so many have used already, why Firaxis' developers never used it?

They wanted to 'streamline' the game since the beginning, to make it accessible to a lot of casual gamers. This would be a great addition, but it would mean another layer of complexity to the game. I know, it doesn't seems so complicated, but imagine a casual gamer trying to find out while playing what these layer buttons mean...

ruby_maser · October 22, 2002, 09:27

I know I used the zoom in Civ2... now I feel like I've got my face an inch from the action. sometimes I want to pull back and at least assess the overall situation. Its riduculous to not at least give us the option.

Alex · October 22, 2002, 11:07

Quote:

Originally posted by ruby_maser
Its riduculous to not at least give us the option.

I feel I have to agree with you on this, even if I don't use the zoom myself. The option should exist, because it is a breeze to implement.

ruby_maser · October 22, 2002, 11:22

I'll keep my hopes up that PTW will contain a few surprises like that.

They've got people cranking out ways for us to name units and cool but otherwise useless stuff like that. Lets see some more cool and useful stuff

planetfall · October 22, 2002, 11:45

For my play style, 2 zoom levels is enough.

I would love to have the layer view option implemented. That is a great enhancement concept.

-- PF

aahz_capone · October 23, 2002, 06:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexnm
They wanted to 'streamline' the game since the beginning, to make it accessible to a lot of casual gamers. This would be a great addition, but it would mean another layer of complexity to the game. I know, it doesn't seems so complicated, but imagine a casual gamer trying to find out while playing what these layer buttons mean...

Alexnm, I don't see too much of a problem for the casual gamer if this happens. Multilayer and zoom buttons would only make the game more complex for us, who use it and might need it at high levels, but the casual gamer wouldn't play at such high levels and consiquently can easily play the game without layers (as we do now, prooving that it is possible). If you hide the buttons of screen the casual player won't even need to know about it. And if they really want to figre it out, RTM (read the manual).

Bottom line as long as these "hypercomplex" options that we love don't affect the gameplay directly, then we can have as many as we want without annoying the "casualites". Or the deadites for that matter. Or am I watching too much Evil Dead?

problem_child · October 24, 2002, 09:11

I agree aahz_capone, I hate not having the whole zoom range too. I like to step back and take a more wholistsic/strategic view of the map at times, and at other times I like to szoom right in, so close I can almost smell the pollution belching from my industrious cities. I don't know what they were thinking when they left it at just 2 zoom levels! Don't they play the game? How could anyone write off multi-zoom with the words

'Bah, it's not important, just two will do'

MADNESS! INSANITY! This actually perplexed me for weeks after I bought the game, I had assumed my keyboard was brocken befor eit finally sunk in. Sometimes I play SMACX again just to enjoy the freedom to zoom.

WarpStorm · October 24, 2002, 09:22

Quote:

Originally posted by ruby_maser
They've got people cranking out ways for us to name units and cool but otherwise useless stuff like that. Lets see some more cool and useful stuff

While I agree with your sentiment, I disagree with your example. Naming units is very useful especially in scenarios.

Alex · October 24, 2002, 09:50

capone, I agree with your reasoning, but unfortunately that's not what the folks at Firaxis thought when they designed the game. If they would 'streamline' it, then why would they add complex features like that? I'd love to have that option (I like to play Tropico and the layers are immensely helpful), but the designers may have thought that it would be a wasted effort.

Adm.Naismith · October 24, 2002, 18:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexnm
I'd love to have that option (I like to play Tropico and the layers are immensely helpful), but the designers may have thought that it would be a wasted effort.

Or simply they missed it when they checked their To Do List.

BTW I thinked about layered maps because I used some layers graph at my job, to show geographical (area) distribution of a value: we are playing Civ III as "manager", so "business management reports" fits often quite well to the game - and in Civ III environment are less boring, too.

Sarxis · October 25, 2002, 04:46

In SMAC, I rarely used the multiple zooms; except when pretending I was using a spy satellite:

::vrooooom:: I see Deirdre in the tub! Woohoo!!

SanPellegrino · October 25, 2002, 09:42

Quote:

Originally posted by problem_child
MADNESS! INSANITY! This actually perplexed me for weeks after I bought the game, I had assumed my keyboard was brocken befor eit finally sunk in. Sometimes I play SMACX again just to enjoy the freedom to zoom.

The same for me, after I installed it, I hammered 10 minutes on z, y, ctrl z and checked my cable....