Area 25: Useless Industrial Innovations

Thud · October 21, 2002, 21:45

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Soon, I will be compiling a Tech Guide for the not-too-distant Industrial Age. While y'all are waiting I pose this question:

Should we attempt to research and whore Medicine and Sanitation (+Radio), or Corporation and Steel\Refining? Which course of action (assuming we still won't be able to directly compete for the best techs on our own) would you recommend?

Apocalypse · October 21, 2002, 22:10

Shouldn't you be naming these plans?

I already have a name in mind for Corporation and Steel\Refining if you want it.

E_T · October 22, 2002, 01:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Apocalypse
Shouldn't you be naming these plans?

I already have a name in mind for Corporation and Steel\Refining if you want it.

I'm more worried about getting to Electronics & Hover Dam first.

E_T

mrmitchell · October 22, 2002, 08:16

Yeah, the Hoover Dam rocks. In most of my games I just get steam power, industrialization, then speed straight ahead for electronics. (And then with the extra production power of the hoover I can produce tanks like crazy, wiping out my enemies.)

Randolph · October 22, 2002, 08:31

This is my general plan, which I think works quite well. It’s never failed to get me HD and plenty of relatively useless tech to sell/trade after the construction of HD. (its just a sugestion)

steam -> industry (for rails and factories)
Then -> scientific method (I know there are several between)
Build TOE
During construction: Sanitation, replaceable parts, or the corporation (more than one if possible, or move to refining after TC)
Get atomic theory -> electronics with TOE
Build Hover Dam

Thud · October 22, 2002, 09:53

Does the AI go for electronics as a priority? I'm not sure, but most likely not, and this is a good suggestion. The reason I didn't name anything yet is because I planned on having suggestions that might make these plans obselete. This seems to be the case, actually.

joncnunn · October 22, 2002, 14:07

In my own games, my tech tree plan for the Industrial ages is:

1. Railroad

2. Medicine, Sanitation.

3. Replaceable Parts

4. Beeline to Electornics.

I trade for the other early industrial techs the AIs have.

But I'm always ahead of the AI by then in techs.

If we're running behind techs (I hope not), we can buy Nationalism and then reserach Communism and/or Epsoidage. (Least desirable path for the AI)

ManicStarSeed · October 22, 2002, 15:55

I would like to see this order...

Steam Power
Medicine
Electricity
Scientific Method (ToE Get industrialization and corporation with it)
Replacable Parts (Infantry)
Atomic Theroy
Electronics (Hover Dam)

Let us get sanitation through trade/extortion.... whatever. We do not want to build hospitals until we get Ecology as population pollution is a real problem.

Unless we want battlefield medicine, then we need 5 hospitals. Still, I would rather wait untill we have some mass transit systems built.

Mss

Apocalypse · October 22, 2002, 15:59

See why some set plans are needed? People are just spurting out random ideas. Nothing very constructive going on at the moment.

GodKing · October 22, 2002, 16:12

randolph, that is how I usually do it as well. I think we have a chance at it if we can start our research up soon.

GK

ManicStarSeed · October 22, 2002, 16:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Apocalypse
See why some set plans are needed? People are just spurting out random ideas. Nothing very constructive going on at the moment.

Isn't this the first step in planning.... Random ideas=brainstorming, Thud can use this to formulate a plan. We will know that the plan was formulated AFTER (and based upon)some discussion.

Give us ideas not your criticism.

Mss

ManicStarSeed · October 22, 2002, 16:32

I really think that the Hover Dam, ToE and replacable parts are our priorities.

Then we need to get mobilized transport.

Mss

joncnunn · October 22, 2002, 17:31

I completely disagree with delaying Sanitation.
Cities can't grow past size 12 without Hospitals.
Hospitals should be the number 1 priority for all cities at size 12 that can have a food surplus.

Each additional worked tile (with road) is worth a minimum of 2 commerce under Republic/Democracy.

How in the world can we keep up with the AI in techs without the increased income & research from large metropolis as soon as possible?

Our current worker pool can handle any polution with ease as soon as a minimal rail network is set up.

I usally sell Medicine for Industrization.

I don't bother even buying Corporation until I'm very close to completing ToE or finishing up Electrecy. (Whichever is first.)

I'll definately want to know expected reserach times so I can judge likelyhood of being first to research given techs.

First three techs if ahead:
Research Steam Power (RAIL!)
Reserach Medicine if AI doesn't have it when we discover rail, otherwise sell Steam Power for Medicine. Then check to see if other AIs willing to pay us enough GPT for it.
Research Sanitation (Hospitals!)

Check to see if AI can afford to buy decent price for Sanitation and/or tech.

First two techs if about equal:
Research Medicine
(Sell Medicine for Steam Power)
Reserach Sanitation

Techwhore Sanitation.

(The AI beats us out to Steam Power if we are about equal research at that point because it's the most popular AI first tech to research.)

First tech if behind:

Communism if we can afford buying Nationlism the same turn we buy the last required Middle Age tech otherwise
Free Artistry.

Techwhore Free Aristry and/or Communism for more useful techs.

Quote:

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
I would like to see this order...

Steam Power
Medicine
Electricity
Scientific Method (ToE Get industrialization and corporation with it)
Replacable Parts (Infantry)
Atomic Theroy
Electronics (Hover Dam)

Let us get sanitation through trade/extortion.... whatever. We do not want to build hospitals until we get Ecology as population pollution is a real problem.

Unless we want battlefield medicine, then we need 5 hospitals. Still, I would rather wait untill we have some mass transit systems built.

Mss

joncnunn · October 22, 2002, 17:32

Just about every tech in the industrial age is a prereq for Mobilized Transport.

Quote:

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed

Then we need to get mobilized transport.

Mss

Thud · October 22, 2002, 17:47

I wanted random ideas. When we get to the industrial age I am going to be making set plans for debate upon. I just wanted input for these set plans before designing them.

Kloreep · October 22, 2002, 18:18

I agree with Randolph. Gives us good chance at Hoovers (as long as we pre-build ToE) and lets us follow up the industry rush with Sanitation and Replacable Parts.

Apocalypse · October 22, 2002, 18:26

Quote:

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
Isn't this the first step in planning.... Random ideas=brainstorming, Thud can use this to formulate a plan. We will know that the plan was formulated AFTER (and based upon)some discussion.

The brainstorming comes in other threads about the course of the civilization. The tech plans need to be based somewhat on those.

mrmitchell · October 22, 2002, 18:34

Okay, Apoc, if it's random ideas so far, let us get

1. Steam Power (IIRC it gives railroads)

first.

I think we can all (hopefully) agree on that. Or, I hope we can.

Thud · October 22, 2002, 19:07

We could agree on that, except the AI will stop at nothing to get that tech first. On the other hand, perhaps the Hawks want to go to war to get it first

realpolitic · October 22, 2002, 19:45

I favor Industralization(hopefully with Sufferage) then Sanitation, then once we build Hospitals,cram them with workers to speed our tech rate. Cramming our Core Hospital cities can speed our tech enough to get us to Hoover about as fast as goung straight for it.

Zero · October 22, 2002, 20:26

i say beeline for electronics right away and trade for other priority techs that are out of electronic tree.

Jonny · October 22, 2002, 21:35

My usual Industrial Age research plan is as follows:

Nationalism
Medicine
Sanitation
Then a beeline for Electronics, BUT getting Replaceable Parts along the way.

If we make progress quickly along the Electronics beeline (i.e., we get the techs along the way before anyone else), we can trade for the techs we passed.

Meshelic · October 22, 2002, 22:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Thud
We could agree on that, except the AI will stop at nothing to get that tech first. On the other hand, perhaps the Hawks want to go to war to get it first

YES! Lets do it guys! Go Hawks! hehe

Everyone

's Hawks, right?

Randolph · October 23, 2002, 07:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Apocalypse
See why some set plans are needed? People are just spurting out random ideas. Nothing very constructive going on at the moment.

In light of this comment (and since I’ve received some agreement), perhaps I should flush out the reasoning behind this plan (I didn’t want to go overboard to begin with).

* steam -> industry (for rails and factories)

IMO This is the most important aspect of industrialization, even more important than 12+ city growth: 1. very few cities will grow past 12 very fast w/out the bonus food from railroads. 2. It makes much more sense to build up your shield production first and than build “other things” (wonders, hospitals, modern units). If we “go right for electronics” (or something else) we’ll have to build hover dam (and ToE) with minimal shield production.

* Then -> scientific method (I know there are several between)

It’s unlikely that cities will be ready to build hospitals if you go right for sanitation (assuming we have a good research pace). 1. Two ‘Big cities’ will build: factory -> coal plant -> wonder, this will give you plenty of time to research sanitation (which could be your next researched advance after SM (this is only a two tech deviation from sanitation) 2. ‘smaller cities’ will only need a factory, but this will take them long enough. If they do finish before sanitation we’ll probably have ‘something useful for them to do’, and if not some ‘wealth’ cities are great during this period of great need of both fast techs and cash.

Also if we do this and build ToE quickly we will be almost guaranteed HD.

* Build TOE

During construction: Sanitation, replaceable parts, or the corporation (more than one if possible, or move to refining after TC)

Ideally I would chose Sanitation and replaceable parts; sanitation first if your cities will be ‘ready to build hospitals’ (i.e. factories are already build in a fair number of ‘growers’), and RP if they will not or there are defense issues.

* Get atomic theory -> electronics with TOE

Make sure that you switch to AT the turn before you get ToE and switch science to 0%.

I’m quite sure that atomic theory and electronics is the most expensive duo that you can get with ToE (I don’t have the game with me to check this). One could research atomic theory and get electronics and ‘something else’ w/ ToE, but why not research an advance that you get something tangible from (like sanitation or replaceable parts) first, since you’ll have electronics at the same time either way.

* Build Hover Dam

Once hover dam is build (and I feel this is the fastest way to get it), in addition to the obvious benefit, we will have a number of largely ‘useless’ wonders to trade to the computer who has hopefully been diligently been researching ‘the corporation path’ (or either sanitation or RP if we haven’t researched them yet).

Kloreep · October 23, 2002, 13:41

I'd just like to add that I think Replacable Parts should be researched at the earliest possible opportunity. It will make our workers rail like nobody's business, and since it looks like we're going to skip Nationalism for a while, we'll need Infantry for a good anti-cavalry defense.

Edit: Of course, I think we should go with Randolph's suggestions first. I just think Replacable Parts is the most valuable tech for us once we're on the road the Hoover's, even better than Sanitation or a tech we can trade around.

joncnunn · October 23, 2002, 14:45

Why is it that most posts simply assume we are going to be faster than average researching in the early industrial age when so far we have been close to dead last reseraching things ourselves?

Kloreep · October 23, 2002, 14:59

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
Why is it that most posts simply assume we are going to be faster than average researching in the early industrial age when so far we have been close to dead last reseraching things ourselves?

Well, the Industrial Age is still several techs away. Also, most of our commerce has been devoted to our treasury; once we build some libraries and move the science slider forward, I think we will be able to get techs in under 20 turns - even in the Industrial Age, as long as the FP is built on schedule.

But you're right, it will still be very slow, especially compared to the AI.

Shiber · October 23, 2002, 15:05

IMHO the AIs are researching in expense of their economy. I remember seeing a screenshot of an investigation of Berlin that showed that they are directing 90% of the commerce to science. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the other AIs that are leading in tech are doing the same.

Shiber · October 23, 2002, 15:27

-Double post.-

joncnunn · October 23, 2002, 16:25

At the current pace, the AIs are very close to entering the Industrail Age.

(We know that several already have Metalurgy. This leaves only Theory of Gravity and Magnetism left in the required techs. The AIs will split primarly for Magnetism, but enough will pick Theory of Gravity for them to swap, enter the Industrial Age with the Scientific civs being granted Nationalism.

Attempting to Reserach any early industrial tech in more than 15 turns (except for dead end Communism / Epsiopage) is a waste of time & money.

We need something like a research rate of 8 or 9 turns starting at the same time to be first to Steam Power. (A heavy favorite for first AI research)

Up to 12 turns to Medicine gives us a shot at being first to Medicine if we go for that directly.

I highly doubt the Forbiden Palace will be finished before the AIs enter the Industrial age unless we get a Great Leader during the French war.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kloreep

Well, the Industrial Age is still several techs away. Also, most of our commerce has been devoted to our treasury; once we build some libraries and move the science slider forward, I think we will be able to get techs in under 20 turns - even in the Industrial Age, as long as the FP is built on schedule.

But you're right, it will still be very slow, especially compared to the AI.