United Apolytonian Despots (this is NOT a joke!!! Read.)

UnOrthOdOx · October 23, 2002, 13:57

That's right. This is no joke, no roleplaying, and no clowning around.

Lets face the fact Apolytonia, we are a despotic regime.

Sure, you can claim to yourselves that we are an enlightened peoples, that we are now so much better off.

These are all lies.

In our own past, we have tortured our own peoples to build improvements with little or no care, we have set about enslaving the Americans, French, and Persians, and have burnt a German City to the ground. Again, with little or no care. We have even gone as far as to remove all American presence from the land, laughing as we did it.

Our nation at present is being built on the backs of the slaves that we have acquired from most all our neighbors while we ourselves sit lavishing in our comfortable homes. Slaves that we have taken either through force or barter. They have built your roads, mined the ground, cut down the Jungle, and planted our crops.

Through this we have deceived ourselves into believing that we are becoming such an enlightened peoples. Such are the thoughts of those who are above the other races. How many times have you uttered "yeah, but it is only the AI, we can do it better". Yet while uttering this, we have taken the AI's land, and used the AI's own people to provide for ourselves.

These are not the actions of an enlightened people. These are not the actions of a Democracy, or even a Republic.

We are, like it or not, a despotic regime. Even our most noted peace lovers encourage and propose new ways to enslave our neighbors. Buying new slaves, warring on weakened countries. We have brought ourselves to a point where we now LIVE on our slavery, and our tyranny.

Are we so enlightened? Do we DESERVE Democracy? NO. Are we going to join all our slaves to our cities, setting them free? What, and lose nearly half, if not more, of our entire workforce?

We are despots. We have played this game to win. We have played this game to survive. We have played this game as a tyrannical empire. Allow our Government in game to show what we have become. Allow us at least the honor of not lying to ourselves, OR our neighbors by proudly displaying what we are. Nothing but a bunch of despotic people out to win by any means, not an enlightened group looking out for peoples rights.

Oh, I guess I can make this official like and add a member list. OK, UAD members:

IT DOESNT MATTER, WE BASK IN THE GLORIOUS LEADERSHIP OF OUR DESPOTIC PRESIDENT

GodKing · October 23, 2002, 14:14

I agree.

Shiber · October 23, 2002, 14:17

GOD DAMMIT YOU ARE RIGHT!

We have reached the point in the game where our victory is pretty much given. Now that we no longer have to worry about winning the game we can start caring about its other aspects.
However, I'd prefer to work to make Apolytonia an example Democracy rather than return to open Despotism. Who's with me?

UnOrthOdOx · October 23, 2002, 14:33

That very line of thinking is against the 'model democracy' you would attempt to create.

"Now that is convenient for us, we can start to care what goes on."

Bull!

We chose our course, now let us live with it! NO turning back, no pretending that we can erase our past. It is too late for a model Democracy, so let us be the tyrannical beasts that we have become

UnOrthOdOx · October 23, 2002, 14:39

Double post.

Shiber · October 23, 2002, 14:41

It's obvious from the victory condition poll that most of the people around here want a spaceship victory. Do you really want to infect the stars with this filthy behavior?
Let us change our ways! There is still time for atonement.
Make Apolytonia a TRUE Democracy, not just a barbaric nation under the guise of 'enlightment'. Make your children proud!

Shiber · October 23, 2002, 14:47

UnOrthOdOx, so you're saying that because we did some terrible things in the past we absolutely cannot change?
What about the people who objected wars and pop rushing? Do they deserve to have their dream of becoming a true democracy which finally seems to be in sight taken away from them?
What about our children? Why should they suffer for the sins of their ancestors? Why should we deprive them of their right to live in a CIVILIZED world? Yes, we were ruthless despots and we still are, but why raise the next generation into this horrid system of values as well? Do you want to create another generation of monsters?

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
"Now that is convenient for us, we can start to care what goes on."

Exactly UnOrthOdOx. Every rational person knows that being civilized and humane is important, but not as important as survival. Humans first worry about getting food and only then worry about eating it with a fork and knive. It's only natural UnOrthOdOx.

Togas · October 23, 2002, 14:52

Hold on. "True" democracy? What exactly does that mean? How about this more realistic model:

We make it a true Democracy for our citizens.

Not unlike great civilizations of the past, we recognize equality for all citizens, and continue to live off the labor of our conquered enemies. Those who would work and fight to destroy us, should justly be put to labor to make this nation great.

Consider how the Romans allowed conquered people to become citizens, or how the Americans had the world's first moden Democracy but had slaves working the fields.

We offer citizenship to all conquered nations, and allow the slaves to buy their way to freedom. Those who are willing and worthy to contribute and participate in the greatness of Apolytonia can be welcome in (including other races).

--Togas

UnOrthOdOx · October 23, 2002, 14:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
It's obvious from the victory condition poll that most of the people around here want a spaceship victory. Do you really want to infect the stars with this filthy behavior?
Let us change our ways! There is still time for atonement.
Make Apolytonia a TRUE Democracy, not just a barbaric nation under the guise of 'enlightment'. Make your children proud!

As the despot's that we are, We are better than everyone else. This planet, the next, the one after that, it does not matter. It is our duty to show others the err of their ways!

We have spent 4000 + years playing as the Despot. We have ground under our own feet three nations, erradicated one, and soon to erradicate another. Allow us to continue this march! Show this world, and the next, that the Apolytonian way is the only way!

Change our ways? Why? Would this not simply be another despotic way to promote the winning of the game? Democracy is the best government for anything but war. Again, choosing the easiest course to win the game, just like a despotic nation, avoiding conflict while being the largest nation with the most commerce in the best government, now that it is convenient for us. Anything to win the game, the act of a true despot.

Yes, we could 'change our ways' that has been done. People play through a Democratic game all the time. But truly it is only a lie to themselves as they despotically advance the easiest course to win. Let us take up our rightfull place as Despots. Let us show the world our true ways and no longer lie to ourselves or to others!

Shiber · October 23, 2002, 15:00

That's where you are mistaken. Warmongering is the easiest path to winning the game in our current situation. All the other paths to victory are harder or will take us more time to complete.
Democracy is not the easiest nor the hardest, but certainly the must fulfilling.

UnOrthOdOx · October 23, 2002, 15:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Togas
We offer citizenship to all conquered nations, and allow the slaves to buy their way to freedom. Those who are willing and worthy to contribute and participate in the greatness of Apolytonia can be welcome in (including other races).

--Togas

We do? I have not seen ONE slave 'buy' his way to freedom.

And since when have we offered citizenship? Starving down cities till we can manage the populace, then forcing our own ways upon them. No, my friend, this is not an 'offer', this is a demand.

GhengisFarb™ · October 23, 2002, 15:07

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
We do? I have not seen ONE slave 'buy' his way to freedom.

And since when have we offered citizenship? Starving down cities till we can manage the populace, then forcing our own ways upon them. No, my friend, this is not an 'offer', this is a demand.

Didn't we join some workers to one of the Persian cities? They won their freedom.

I for one do not have any desire to achieve a spaceship victory. I think it would take too long. PTW comes out in 11 days and should supposedly allow everyone to upgrade to it and provide us with many new game options.

The sooner we can finish this game and start our second the better in my opinion. I think it should be interesting to discover the thousands of strange new programming errors Firaxis has made with my comrades from Apolytonia. We can rant and curse together.

UnOrthOdOx · October 23, 2002, 17:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
That's where you are mistaken. Warmongering is the easiest path to winning the game in our current situation. All the other paths to victory are harder or will take us more time to complete.
Democracy is not the easiest nor the hardest, but certainly the must fulfilling.

I am sorry, but it is you who are mistaken. To avoid conflict while having the best government, lowest corruption, most science output, and largest military is the easiest, if not the swiftest, path. No AI will dare attack due to the large military, if they do, we would be higher tech and out produce them anyway. It is true that warmongering brought us to this point. Our despotism has brought us to greatness. Now is the time it is easiest to lay down and be peacefull.

Besides, when was the last time you fought a war in the modern era under a despotism? Easy? I would say that it would be a mighty challenge.

Shiber · October 23, 2002, 17:21

We might as well burn down all our core cities. It would also be a mighty challenge to win after doing something like that.
UnOrthOdOx, do you ever play chess? If so, do you decide at some point that you've sacrificed enough soldiers and sacrifice the queen instead just for the sake of it?

Anyway, I think I'm losing you now. I don't understand what you want anymore, and why. I'm sorry but I'm simply not buying this "we've been pop rushing and we buy slaves so let's switch back to Despotism" bull.

Shiber · October 23, 2002, 17:31

I've re-read your posts and I still don't get your point. The way I understand it, you're basically saying "we've been despots and fascists so far so let's keep this up." Where the reason in that? Why can't we change into something better, and why should we not want to change?
All nations started out from societies which we call 'backward'. Many nations that have behaved the way we have behaved in the game so far and even worse have changed and are now the world's greatest nations in many terms. Why, if people listened to you then Great Britain, France, Germany and the rest of today's major scientific and cultural superpowers would have still been despotic countries led by tyrants. Do you seriously want that?

UnOrthOdOx · October 23, 2002, 17:48

I am not saying we cannot change, I am saying that we should look at what we are, and allow the govt in game to reflect that. Why is attempting a 'model despotism' any different than your 'model Democracy'? Have you ever played a game and found it fun to be the bad guy? Why not? Why must we play the perfect peace loving democracy? The perfect 'good guys'?

Yes, bottom line, we can change. And, IMO, it is a little sad that: A) we could do no better than following history's example in commiting these atrocities from the beginning, or
B) that now we are this 'evil' nation we do not continue in the role we have made for ourselves. Personally, I find it fun to play as the 'bad guy' now and then. No need to get all irritated over it.

Meshelic · October 23, 2002, 18:03

Unortho you drive a good point I believe.

Ghengis I couldn't agree more. PTW DOES come out very soon and we should end this game soon so we aren't using up twice the amount of time it takes from our lives to play this game.

I want conquest, not because I'm a Hawk or because I enjoy warmongering, or because of any agenda besides ending this game soon. Spaceship victory doesn't prove anything in my opinion. Maybe that path is something to consider in the future PTW Demo game, but I don't believe it belongs here at all.

Oh yeah I was the only guy who voted domination.

Meshelic · October 23, 2002, 18:05

well i was the only guy as of yesterday when the poll opened....i see more have joined the ranks.

Hot Mustard · October 23, 2002, 18:10

Ah, interesting view. I can't help but think that eewolf's thread had a hand in stirring this (what a remarkable discussion that was).

I DO agree that we are truly a despotism. I DO agree that, sadly, the game has been played in the typical "win-at-all-costs" fashion, sanctioning all sorts of crimes against humanity that none of us (I hope) would even attempt to rationalize in real life.

However, I DO NOT agree that changing to the game-defined despotism will serve any purpose. Rather, I would challenge the citizens of Apolytonia (and this forum) to truly start to behave as the Republic that we have chosen, and eventually, the Democracy we wish to be. Society DOES change. Social conscienceness (ethics/morality/human rights) HAS evolved over the millenia. I think it would be lots of fun if the we attempted to reflect that. UnOrthOdOx is perfectly right to point out that we have utterly failed to do so thus far, but as eewolf originally observed, we haven't been trying to.

Thud · October 23, 2002, 19:45

Shiber, I agree completely. I'm going to start a Apolytonian Enlightenment movement.

Duddha · October 23, 2002, 19:46

As one of the strongest reactionarys on the board, I support the UAD. May we enslave the entire planet.

Meshelic · October 23, 2002, 20:31

The UAD has my full support in this matter, as well as full support from the Shadow Service (SS).

Arnelos · October 23, 2002, 21:01

Pursuant to Unortho's statement that we are all unenlightened win-at-all-costs competitors... I hereby support a switch to the incredibly unenlightened form of government known as "democracy" where the masses rule themselves...

Why?

Simple, being the win-at-all-costs type of person that we all are, I'm willing to go to ANY LENGTH (as Unortho correctly claimed) to win

Though many would obviously consider giving the masses real power distasteful, I am being a true Apolytonian (by Unortho's argument) by supporting the switch out of purely Apolyton-aggrandizing motives

So...

To Democracy! Give the hudled, filthy, and illiterate masses power if it will advance our nation and let the enlightened rule of the educated and literate classes be damned.

Kloreep · October 23, 2002, 23:37

[RP]Why must we change out of glorious Republic? I say keep power confined to our senate, who we know we can trust with the tough decisions. If the masses complain, just switch back to Monarchy so our King can oppress 'em a little![/RP]

But seriously, Unortho does bring up a good point. We are a very cruel, bloodthirsty nation.

But how exactly are we a Despotism; a rule of one? Aside from the occassional temper flare or spillover of RL problems, we are quite civil to each other, the ruling senate. I'd say we're more somewhere between an Oligarchy and a Republic.

Arnelos · October 24, 2002, 00:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Kloreep
[RP]Why must we change out of glorious Republic? I say keep power confined to our senate, who we know we can trust with the tough decisions. If the masses complain, just switch back to Monarchy so our King can oppress 'em a little![/RP]

But seriously, Unortho does bring up a good point. We are a very cruel, bloodthirsty nation.

But how exactly are we a Despotism; a rule of one? Aside from the occassional temper flare or spillover of RL problems, we are quite civil to each other, the ruling senate. I'd say we're more somewhere between an Oligarchy and a Republic.

Indeed...

Perhaps, in a synthesis of the arguments of Unortho and Kloreep here...

"If you live in a country run by committee, be on the committee." -Graham Summer

Glory to the Senate!

Harovan · October 24, 2002, 04:30

Yes! Let's be an enlightened and human people.

Give all slaves one day off!

Then hurry them, so they do the work they missed that day.

UnOrthOdOx · October 24, 2002, 09:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Kloreep
But how exactly are we a Despotism; a rule of one? Aside from the occassional temper flare or spillover of RL problems, we are quite civil to each other, the ruling senate. I'd say we're more somewhere between an Oligarchy and a Republic.

How are we NOT a despotism? Not only have we played as such in game, but out here when you boil right down to it, we ARE a rule of one.

The President, and the President alone makes the final decision. He/She plays the game, and makes the final decision to move that particular unit/make that particular trade.

"but we elect the president" So? A Despot elected to power is still a despot.

"but we have ministers of (insert department here)" So? Every decent Despot has advisors, that doesn't mean he follows them. What is to stop the President from committing his own ideas?

"We have chats to stop that from happening" Yeah, at the discression of the President, our glorious despot. There is no obligation for him to actually hold a chat, just to play the game. He could just as easily play it in private.

"But he has to report and post the save"

Yeah, so what? He could report nearly anything that is plausible. Pick a fight on Germany and say they started it. How are we to know? There are many things not available in a save.

Not only have we played with nothing but our own best interests in mind, we are a despotism in every sense of the word. One man in charge carrying out his will. We just have a 'revolution' every month and change that leader. It is merely by fortune that, to the best of my knowledge, each president has accepted the will of the people.

Kloreep · October 24, 2002, 13:49

Many governments could be viewed as a despotism in this light. But, myself, I don't find a guy following detailed orders, the results of which he posts each turn, threatening.

It certainly is quite possible to have a bad president who twists us into a despotism. But we do not intend to give the president much actual power, and, under our laws, he must follow the ministers, who in turn are required to "conduct polls in order to interrupt the people’s will". (I had forgotten that was in there; man, that would allow so many ministers to be dragged through court.)

As you pointed out, the Prez doesn't have to follow orders, and could make up anything to justify wars or other actions. My point is that if we were, are, or become a despotism, it is through the fault of a minority of people in the government, not because our small senate society wishes it so. We certainly could be a despotism, but I don't think most of our group of senatiors would want it. We are definitely ruthless, cruel, and violent; but we do want to keep power spread within our special circle.

zeit · October 24, 2002, 14:25

- This game is sure more like RL country ruling than a regular Civ3 game, but let's not forget it's still a game- and the point of it is the 'Democracy' part in 'Democrcy Game'. We don't have one man rule, and if it will be so it won't be this DG, it won't be Apolytonia anymore, it would just be someone with the save file (happens to be the guy in charge of physicaly playing the actual Civ3 game) who would do as he pleases. I might as well play it on my PC, turn our government to Despotism, and say to myself this is the game, others won't accept it, no-one will play with me, and it won't be this DG anymore, it would be Zeit playing Civ3 with some save he got from some forum- it would lose all it's meaning.

Reffering to UnO's cases: if we are bloodthirsty and care for conquest- we might as well be a desguised Republic/Democracy- as Hitler's germany was for a time, hyporcacy and scheming is an integral part of global conquest quest, IMO. And if our goal is to create a wonderous and enlighted civilaztaion, Democracy is the way to go. What we are actually is more like a normal country who is run by it's people/senate, that does what is best for it's citizen's interests- and this is giving them power and making our rule more efficent, this includes warmongering, being brutal and also craving for enlightment, we shouldn't be ashamed of it, as UnO's is suggesting.

UnOrthOdOx · October 24, 2002, 14:30

As I stated Like it or not, we ARE a despotism. Just because the President, the Despot, CHOOSES to allow people to influence his actions does not mean it is not still his choice.

And, no, many governments would not follow suit. Most have checks and balances that are impossible in this little situation since no matter what we do, there can only be one playing the game and having the final say.

And as far as in game goes, those decisions have been very despotic, looking out for us first.