Up to 700 people believed to be held hostage in Moscow - Page 2

Serb · October 24, 2002, 00:33

Latest news,
The embassies of Great Britain and Germany admited that there are citizens of Great Britain and Germany among hostages. Total number is unknown.
Also, embassy of Austria admited that one Austrian women is among hostages.
No info about Americans among hostages. Tass I hope it will helps you somehow.
The patients of nearby hospital and people who live in nearby houses were evacuated. There are BMP on the streets. Still nothing known about negotiations, terrorists shot down all mobile phones of hostages.
Just saw interview with representative of Chechens who live in Moscow. He said that people who did this, made all Chechens who live in Moscow to feel guilty. And that about 1000 Chechens already said that they are ready to become hostages in exchange for realise of childrens.

Serb · October 24, 2002, 00:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Serb, if you want to refute his arguments fine, but that kind of garbage you typed is absolutely out of line and only makes you look like an ass.

arguments?

What would you expected from me? That I will engage in disscusion about propagandistic crap of terrorists you like to buy. You prefer to beleive to terrorists then to official representatives of government. Fine I'll guess you'll never learn.
Just try to understand my outrage when while hundreds of my fellow countryman including many children are took hostages, I hear that one moron is saying -"it's your own fault, you bloody Russian murders"
It's the same if I appeared here on Apolyton at Sept 11 and start to shout- "that it's your own fault you dirty American butchers."

Boris Godunov · October 24, 2002, 00:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Serb
What would you expected from me?

Oh, to behave by the rules of the forum and disagree more respectfully without resulting to childish name calling?

Quote:

That I will engage in disscusion about propagandistic crap of terrorists you like to buy. You prefer to beleive to terrorists then to official representatives of government. Fine I'll guess you'll never learn.

I never said I bought or believed what he said, but nice try to paint it that way...

Quote:

Just try to understand my outrage when while hundreds of my fellow countryman including many children are took hostages, I hear that one moron is saying -"it's your own fault, you bloody Russian murders" It's the same if I appeared here on Apolyton at Sept 11 and start to shout- "that it's your own fault you dirty American butchers."

I don't think Sonic was saying the people deserved to be hostages--he didn't even say the Chenenyans where justified. He simply said that, given his perspective on events in Chenenya, it was not a surprise.

By the same token, when one reflects on Sept. 11th, the actions of the terrorists where indeed not surprising. That doesn't legitimize or excuse their actions. But I won't blind myself to anger over American actions abroad, either, which must be acknowledged.

There's a real high horse you need to get off of, son.

Felch · October 24, 2002, 00:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Serb
TV just said that president of US made a declaration about the situation. He said that Americans are praying for hostages and that nothing can't justify such actions.
Thanks for support Americans.

I actually agree with Serb on a lot of what he says for once. But with this, I wonder. Is he being sarcastic?

notyoueither · October 24, 2002, 01:31

Actually... I read Sonic's post and then plugged my ears waiting for the boom.

Seriously. This is about some hundreds of innocent civilians and a bunch of thugs who decided that they would be the targets of the terror.

Any kind of comment that attempts to understand or explain such acts tends to veer a bit towards blaming the victims. The victims do not make the policy.

When it comes to terrorism, it ain't about the government of the victims. It's about the victims of terrorism themselves. There is no excuse, there is no reason good enough to justify it.

Eli · October 24, 2002, 01:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Btw, how would you think Sayeret Matkal / Duvdevan/ Gideonim / Yamam would handle this?

Duvdevan and the Gideonim aren't really qualified for that job. They have some training for these operations, but nothing close to what the Sayeret or the Yamam get.

Nubclear · October 24, 2002, 01:50

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
Actually... I read Sonic's post and then plugged my ears waiting for the boom.

Seriously. This is about some hundreds of innocent civilians and a bunch of thugs who decided that they would be the targets of the terror.

Any kind of comment that attempts to understand or explain such acts tends to veer a bit towards blaming the victims. The victims do not make the policy.

When it comes to terrorism, it ain't about the government of the victims. It's about the victims of terrorism themselves. There is no excuse, there is no reason good enough to justify it.

I completly agree with you. You can't justify a terrorist action when its against innocent civilians...You just can't.

Serb · October 24, 2002, 02:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Felch X

I actually agree with Serb on a lot of what he says for once. But with this, I wonder. Is he being sarcastic?

No. I was not.
Terrrorism is modern threat to all world. If American president is saying that he and American people are praying for hostages held in Russia, there is nothing I could do except to thank him and Americans for their support and understanding.
Thank you again.

Latest news,
Embassador of Australia is come to HQ of secret services near theater. TV news says it proves that Australian citizens are among the hostages.
Also they says that embassy of Netherlands admited that Netherland's citizen is among hostages. TV says that aproximately 20 foreign citizens could still be in theater.
Several minutes ago one of the news chanels (almost all TV chanels show the situation on-line) said that they heard sound of explosion inside of the theater. They suggest it was grenade. They suggest that more probably it was acident, not the beggining of speznaz operation. Still terrorists don't call to officials to begin negotiations. No calls from hostages too, more probably their phones were took from them by terrorists.

MichaeltheGreat · October 24, 2002, 02:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Oh, to behave by the rules of the forum and disagree more respectfully without resulting to childish name calling?

I never said I bought or believed what he said, but nice try to paint it that way...

I don't think Sonic was saying the people deserved to be hostages--he didn't even say the Chenenyans where justified. He simply said that, given his perspective on events in Chenenya, it was not a surprise.

By the same token, when one reflects on Sept. 11th, the actions of the terrorists where indeed not surprising. That doesn't legitimize or excuse their actions. But I won't blind myself to anger over American actions abroad, either, which must be acknowledged.

There's a real high horse you need to get off of, son.

After September 11, we gave American posters a lot of slack to "express"

how they felt about the situation, especially in response to any idiocy, trolling, etc. Considering the magnitude of the situation in Moscow, I figure Serb and any other Russian posters deserves the same degree of slack.

We can discuss dismounting from horses another time.

Keep us posted, Serb, when you have time.

Alexander's Horse · October 24, 2002, 02:57

lend em a cruise missile.

notyoueither · October 24, 2002, 02:58

They have their own missiles.

Alexander's Horse · October 24, 2002, 02:59

Quote:

Originally posted by notyoueither
They have their own missiles.

Yeah - rusting away.

notyoueither · October 24, 2002, 03:24

I'm sure they could scrape together one or two serviceable examples.

Gatekeeper · October 24, 2002, 03:33

The last I read on the raw news wires at work ... the Chechens are giving Russian seven days to comply with their demands ... or they blow up the theater. Hmm ... going on memory alone here (I'm at home now) ... but I think that's what the alert said.

Gatekeeper

notyoueither · October 24, 2002, 03:35

I don't think it will go according to the thugs' agenda.

They are not dealing with a bunch of liberal neer-do-wells.

Ned · October 24, 2002, 03:46

Simply amazing that muslim terrorists can find 40 men and women to undertake a suicide mission. This is just as about as bad as 9/11.

Gatekeeper · October 24, 2002, 03:51

I'm not so sure the Chechens are doing this strictly because they're devout Sharia-observing Muslim. There are women w/i the group of hostage-takers and a number of stories have mentioned that some of the terrorists have lost family members in the war against Russia.

Gatekeeper

Sonic · October 24, 2002, 04:54

Yes, Boris Godunov is right, I DID'NT justified terrorist by any means, I just said it isn't big surprise that they taken these hostages. I didn't said that it is right. Yet another troll from Serb it seems.

Sonic · October 24, 2002, 04:58

MichelTheGreat, probably you would be right if that would be first such Serb's attack. However he keeps insulting me, he claims I am neo-nazi, also uses a lot of **** words in many posts.

Al'Kimiya · October 24, 2002, 05:03

If only somehow this will change Russia's opinion about war in Iraq...

MichaeltheGreat · October 24, 2002, 05:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Sonic
MichelTheGreat, probably you would be right if that would be first such Serb's attack. However he keeps insulting me, he claims I am neo-nazi, also uses a lot of **** words in many posts.

I've banned Serb before.

Considering the gravity of the subject of this thread, though, I'm giving him more slack in responding here than I would elsewhere.

In a way, right now it's emotionally worse than September 11 for those most closely affected, because the fate of these people is still hanging in the balance, and we know neither when or how the situation will be resolved.

Before suggesting that Serb was the one trolling (in this thread

), perhaps one should reconsider the timing of discussing Russia's perceived sins in Chechnya or elsewhere.

I hope that's not too subtle of a hint.

Serb · October 24, 2002, 05:40

Sonic:... mummy....this bad guy is hurt me.
*throw up*
Keep to post the same crap as you posted in different topic and I will never change my attitude toward you, even if I'll be banned forever.
And next time when you want to sell somebody PM to moderator, not post your whine in topcs.

back to news,
Terrorists refused to release foreign citizens. Last time news said about 67 forign citizens inside of the theater, Yougoslavia and Hungary added to list, also news said that one American citizen could be there and that few FBI officers were sighted near theater. Also Australia wasn't mentioned in this list, which is strange, because in previous reports they show a car with small Australian flag near theater and voice was saying that its a car of Australian embassador. So they refused to release them and made new demands. They demand representatives of "Red cross" and members of "Doctors without borders". Also they demanded meeting with two members of Russian parlament (actually leaders of two parties) Grigory Yavlinsky and Irina Hackamada. Also they wanted meeting with one Russian reporter (don't remember her name).
Two TV journalist's groups was allowed to go inside the theater they already there and suppose to return soon.

It's admited again that there are many children among the hostages, entire two classes of school pupils were in theater when it was took by terrorists.
I don't heard nothing new. I was outside for lunch and noticed additional police units, consider how far away I live from Moscow I could only imagine what's goin on in capital.

Serb · October 24, 2002, 05:43

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
In a way, right now it's emotionally worse than September 11 for those most closely affected, because the fate of these people is still hanging in the balance, and we know neither when or how the situation will be resolved.

Exactly

Thanks for understanding.

MOBIUS · October 24, 2002, 05:52

Man I can't believe this thread!

There are hundreds of innocent civilians taken hostage in a situation which has the potential of becoming a bloodbath and the overwhelming posts on this thread are either joking about the situation, claiming the Russians deserved this, or using this moment of extreme vulnerability to post a raft of anti Russian, or in Boris' case assuming some kind of smugly holier than thou attitude over the way Serb is taking the fact that hundreds of his countryfolk's lives are hanging in the balance!!!

I'm not sure what's worse - the Israeli nonchalance (they should f*cking know better!!!

), Boris in preach mode or Sonic choosing this moment to time his anti Russian attack...?

Sure Russia is not the most innocent of nations in it's past, but if this level of disrespect were to have occurred during 9/11 the offenders would have been vilified and run out of Dodge in a hurry!

If I remember rightly some of the stuff that was posted around then made Serb's little outburst positively saintly! MtG is right to give Serb the slack here that was given back in 9/11 - it is a situation with a potentially similar gravity...

As for the merits of Russia's involvement in Chechnya - that is for discussion in another thread, but it's not the one sided traffic that some of the posters here would have us believe...

Some of you here ought to be really ashamed!

The Mad Monk · October 24, 2002, 05:57

Agreed.

MOBIUS · October 24, 2002, 06:01

Serb, Tass et al. Russia has my utmost sympathy and it is my sincere hope that there will be no loss of life during this crisis...

Serb · October 24, 2002, 06:56

Thank you. I also want to thank people of all countries of the World who showed their solidarity to Russian people. Thank you friends.

Last news,
They released 3 children, one women and citizen of Great Britain. He is 50-60 years old and has bad health.
Overall 711 tickets were sold to musical and there were over 100 artists and theater personal. As I said earlier terrorists released all Chechens, Georgians, Abkhazians and foreigners from Arabic countries. Also many actors managed to escape. Overall 180 escaped. 41 people were released by terrorists. Still about 500 hostages held inside.

Terrorists threaten that they will kill 10 hostages every hour if their demands wouldn’t be fulfilled. Grigory Yavlinsky they demanded to meet is in different city but already on plane to Moscow. Now they demand meeting with different party leader- Boris Nemzov. Also they demanded meeting with reporter Anna Politovskaya, but she is in USA now. They said that they are ready to exchange 10 hostages for every member of Russian parliament.
Russian parliament after emergency session made declaration when they said that main goal is to save people lives. Russian president made declaration too, when he said that this act was part of worldwide terrorism and that people who did this received instructions from foreign countries and they close connected to worldwide terroristic network. TV says that released hostages say that terrorists call themselves “Shahids”.

Saint Marcus · October 24, 2002, 07:03

hey! leave Serb alone! when it was Sept.11th, we didn't tell all you Americans that you had it coming, did we?

Az · October 24, 2002, 07:15

you really should've posted a

smiley there, Marky Mark.

my sencerest hopes that no hostages or Russian soldiers will get hurt. The chechens, however....

aaglo · October 24, 2002, 07:30

I'm glad that my sister isn't among the hostages.