Up to 700 people believed to be held hostage in Moscow

[DinoDoc]

muxec: You're an idiot that can not see beyond his own petty bigotry and shouldn't even be allowed near weapons now or any time in the future.

[Sonic]

Probably you were banned not because your opinion but because of your frequent insults to other people...

Anyway (not arguing to everything currently because I don't know if you will read anymore this thread. If you will I will however answer to other your arguements also)...
Sharia'h is nothing bad, it is just another law system. Like English common law or French common law. Your claim that Chechenyans were bad because they used Sharia'h is an absolute blame. Like if I would say that Russia is absolutely bad state because it uses Russian laws.

YES, I would prefer to be terrorist, nazi, have Sharia'h or even inquisition in my country, only if it would remain independent. Any independence is better than any occupation.

Russia isn't by the way actually so far from the Soviet Union as one might think.

By the way, Russian army is also very cruel in Chechenya. They killed like 200'000 Chechenyans, most of them were innocent. They tortues innocent people. I could talk on specifics more on and on but again, I will do that if you will show on this thread again.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Sonic
Probably you were banned not because your opinion but because of your frequent insults to other people...

A classic example of not reading the whole thread

[Lars-E]

It doesn't look like it now, but I think this conflict will be resolved peacefully...

[Serb]

Ming,
You are right I am terribly sorry. I fell so ashamed. I guess I become a bit paranoid with all those terrorists sneaking around.
Thank you. I knew that you are a good fellow.
I'm sorry once again and thanks that you didn't banned for DL. I've made terribly bad example for others.

Btw, are your media channels already demonstrated a video type created few days before attack on theater and where Maskhadov saying that they decided to change their tactic to offence and soon they will launch unique operation. Also terrorists inside the building admitted that they commanded by Maskhadov and Basyev.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sonic
Probably you were banned not because your opinion but because of your frequent insults to other people...

Anyway (not arguing to everything currently because I don't know if you will read anymore this thread. If you will I will however answer to other your arguements also)...

I will not disscus this anymore. Fate of hostages deserves more attention in this tread then your silly attempts to justify terrorist who commited one of the most terrible terroristic act in human history. And left your excuses for yourself.

Sharia'h is nothing bad, it is just another law system. Like English common law or French common law. Your claim that Chechenyans were bad because they used Sharia'h is an absolute blame. Like if I would say that Russia is absolutely bad state because it uses Russian laws.

If we talk about the same codex of law, then I see now (and it proves once again who are you, you know this word) and I guess everyone what kind of guy you are.
Let’s see: women treated like crap; cut off of criminal’s hand for theft; death sentence for homosexuality; slavery is OK; any means to gain money for holy war (including cut off fingers of hostages to send it to their relatives) is OK; etc. Sure from point of view of guy that thinks that Hitler was a nice fellow there is nothing bad in such codex of laws.

YES, I would prefer to be terrorist, nazi, have Sharia'h or even inquisition in my country, only if it would remain independent. Any independence is better than any occupation.

Do you have any idea that after Vahhabites established their "state" in Chechnya, more Chechens refugees has run away from there to Russia, then during both time when active millitary actions had place there?
I guess it's answer your question. You have terrible complex. A complex of enslaved country and you will try to justify any bandit who would telling you stories about occupation.

Russia isn't by the way actually so far from the Soviet Union as one might think.

Your country is pretty close to nazi Germany as one might think. Feel better now?

By the way, Russian army is also very cruel in Chechenya. They killed like 200'000 Chechenyans, most of them were innocent. They tortues innocent people. I could talk on specifics more on and on but again, I will do that if you will show on this thread again.

You mess the sides that did this. Those freedom fighters killed about 200 000 non-Chechens. One of the reasons why Russian forces engaged in Chechnya in the first time was genocide against non-Chechen population. What do you think we should have did- just seat and watch how they cut throats (this is not metaphor, but just their favorite mean of murder) to non-Chechen civilians?
Case is closed I'm going to watch news.
EDITED: Grammar errors.

[Serb]

Originally posted by muxec
The only way of stopping civilian support is ... killing civilians. In war, when they kill us, civilians, we must do the same. Russia must say to terrorist who captured 700 hostages, that for each killed hostage 100 Chechnyan civilians will be killed. And Israel must say that we’ll burn Palestinian village for each explosion, and USA must strike Iraq.

This is not a method. This is the good way to destroy all humans on this planet. Violence born violence this war will last forever until all humans will be destroyed.
Also I would like to notice that not all Muslims support them. In fact in majority of Russian Mosques Muslims are praying now for release of hostages. I live in city which have a lot of Mosques (it's on south of Siberia and almost in Asia), Catholic Churches (we have a large German community here) and Orthodox Churches and lesser number of other Churches. And there is no hatred or conflicts between us and never were.
Most of Muslims in Russia don't consider those terrorists a Muslims. They admit it again and again. However I'm afraid that this event it Moscow could have very bad consequences if it will end badly. I'm really afraid of this. And sure it was one of their goals to spread nationalistic and religious hatred among population of Russia. Remember? They released most of the people from Caucasus during first hour. It's clearly that it was a provocation.

The second fact is related to those countries who think “we are invincible”. Countries like France, Scandinavian countries, and some other countries, who never suffered from terror, think that Arabs will never strike them. It is wrong.

With this however I can agree. There are no invincible countries anymore. No one could guaranty that next disaster wouldn't happen near your house. There is no way to stay away from this and being sure that you are in safety. Global terrorism is new phenomenon. If terrorists from all around the world united, the only way to stop them is to unite all countries in war against them. There is no another way.

[Serb]

“Izvestia” has information that one of the hostages said that terrorists has only three days to complete their mission he said that tomorrow morning terrorists could start execution of hostages. Representative of FSB Sergei Ignatchenko said that it’s possible.

I guess you already know this. Terrorists return phones to hostages and demanded that they called to their relatives and convince them to launch an anti-war meeting, otherwise terrorists threaded to kill hostages. I guess relatives have no choice.

[Serb]

There more people inside theater then were said before. The fate of at least 30 children is still unknown. In moment of terrorist attack a class of Irish dance had repetition in one of the theater’s classes. At least one girl released today is member of this dance class.

[muxec]

So why Crimea can not be independent? They want to. But why World community say that Russia occupy Chechnya. It's their territory. When they knew that any attempt of terror will be unsuccessful (as in Stalin's time) they were silent.

[Zero]

They released some children today (7 or so)

It's weird that terrorists often given in "too much" to authorities when in actuality they have alot more control then they think they have. If your gonna hold some people hostage, at least do it right...

[Zero]

Originally posted by DanS
"The only way of stopping civilian support is ... killing civilians. In war, when they kill us, civilians, we must do the same. Russia must say to terrorist who captured 700 hostages, that for each killed hostage 100 Chechnyan civilians will be killed. And Israel must say that we’ll burn Palestinian village for each explosion, and USA must strike Iraq."

In my opinion, this line of thought is monstrous.

monstrous or not, people do it cause they think it works. Otherwise they wouldnt

PS I think its monstrous too.

[Sonic]

OK, so let's drop the terrorist discution then.

However, one more thing about Sharia'h - who says that laws we have are right? Who can say what is right and what is not? Probably like after 100 years there will be no jails and people will call our culture very bad because we had jails (some people might call that psychological tortue). Probably after 100 years there will be no zoos or circuses and such things would be banned because of "bad treatment of animals". But would that indicate that our current laws are very bad and cruel? No, because we live with laws we like. In middle ages for example, people actually attended into auto-da-fes and looked the "heretics" burning. We could call that bad, but again, who are we to say so? In Roman Empire men had to keep balance between men and women in sex (50% of sex had to be homosexual). Is this also bad? Answer to both questions in no. Everybody in each country and time has to live under laws they want. The only power to decide what is good and what is bad is the people of that country. The only bad laws are laws people disagrees with. Remember, there are no good or bad countries, there are just different cultures.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Sonic
OK, so let's drop the terrorist discution then.

However, one more thing about Sharia'h - who says that laws we have are right? Who can say what is right and what is not? Probably like after 100 years there will be no jails and people will call our culture very bad because we had jails (some people might call that psychological tortue). Probably after 100 years there will be no zoos or circuses and such things would be banned because of "bad treatment of animals". But would that indicate that our current laws are very bad and cruel? No, because we live with laws we like. In middle ages for example, people actually attended into auto-da-fes and looked the "heretics" burning. We could call that bad, but again, who are we to say so? In Roman Empire men had to keep balance between men and women in sex (50% of sex had to be homosexual). Is this also bad? Answer to both questions in no. Everybody in each country and time has to live under laws they want. The only power to decide what is good and what is bad is the people of that country. The only bad laws are laws people disagrees with. Remember, there are no good or bad countries, there are just different cultures.

my feelings exactly... It is almost impossible to reason that something stands as absolute right. It seems to me right is always a subjective thing as opposed to an objective.

we may know some laws established now to be morally wrong. So law is definitely not a representative of what we view as right and wrong. But that can also go as far as challenging what we believe right and wrong to necessarily be an absolute right.

[Pekka]

I just heard on the news that the terrorists have threatened to start killings tonight?! Did I hear wrong? I hope so I heard wrong.

[Zero]

First of all, I dont want anything bad to happen so dont take it the wrong way but..

I wonder how the authorties and public will react... and what will become of the terrorist if that happens.

If they stated so and they do not act, their credential and their control will be jeopardized.

[Sonic]

Pekka, you are right, they claimed they will start shooting people at 6:00 AM

By the way Serb, you claimed I have some kind of occupied country syndrome. Well, you can't know what it is to live in occupied country (as a native person of that country) because you never did that. It is very bad when your native people are being treated like sh*t in their own, native, land.

[Az]

However, one more thing about Sharia'h - who says that laws we have are right? Who can say what is right and what is not?

I am tired of explaining it again and again.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
hey! leave Serb alone! when it was Sept.11th, we didn't tell all you Americans that you had it coming, did we?

That's a good question.

Mobius seems to be accusing others of doing something he does in ever Israelie/Mid East thread.

Oh and in case everyone has forgotten, it's not really about Serb.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Sonic
Baltics doesn't dislike Russians at all. This is a wrong opinion, probably you also got trolled by Serb. Neither we are dependent on foreign aid from Russia.

I think you may have misunderstood me. I was refering to the Western Aid that would come to a screeching halt if the Baltics tried to do something like this.

BTW, there was also a document movie in which it was claimed that Russian Security itself perhaps was responsible for bombings to have a pretext to invade Chechenya. I don't know how much truth there is in that film however.

Yeah...kinda like how the Mossad staged 9/11.

[Capt Dizle]

Let us all pray that Putin does not cave in. Giving in to terrorists only leads to more terrorism.

[Lord Merciless]

What Putin needs to do are the following:
1. Arrest the families of hostage takers and use them as bargain chips.
2. Threaten to kill 50 Cherchens for every hostage killed.
3. Escalate the war in Cherchnia.
4. Pressure on Georgia to finally do something against terrosits or else.
5. Work with the US on Iraq to avoid possible Western critics.

[DanS]

The thing with threats is that you have to be prepared to follow through with them--otherwise the game doesn't work. I can't believe you would actually advocate killing 50 innocent Chechens for each innocent Russian killed.

[JCG]

Let us *hope* that the hostages aren't all horribly killed needlessly, rather.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by DanS
The thing with threats is that you have to be prepared to follow through with them--otherwise the game doesn't work. I can't believe you would actually advocate killing 50 innocent Chechens for each innocent Russian killed.

I know we won't do it, but Russians might. In the days before Gorbatchev, Russians wouldn't hesitate for a moment doing those things. But that's also why nobody bothered to take hostages against Russians back then.

[Sonic]

Lord Merciless, no, he shouldn't do this, this would lead to just more terrorism seriously and destroy Russian international prestige (not even talking about it being by all means wrong). By the way:
1.Most of terrorists don't have families, Russia already killed them
2.Killing fifty for one would still end up in slaughter. I have no doubt that terrorists would still kill all hostages (and they would probably would be even more likely to do so after such threats; if for example terrorists incidentally kills 1 hostage and Russia kills 50 Chechenyans, than most likely terrorists will kill 50 hostages. If Russia will kill 2500 Chechenyans, than terrorists would kill all hostages, probably also explode theater. This is definitely not a way to safe hostages)
3.Escalating the war would just make terrorists kill more hostages
4.Georgia does everything it can about terrorists in Pankis. NATO helps Georgia with advices, etc.
5.If you don't know, Iraq condemned Chechnyan terrorists, thus there is no reason for Russia to take part in yet another war.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Sonic
Lord Merciless, no, he shouldn't do this, this would lead to just more terrorism seriously and destroy Russian international prestige (not even talking about it being by all means wrong). By the way:
1.Most of terrorists don't have families, Russia already killed them
2.Killing fifty for one would still end up in slaughter. I have no doubt that terrorists would still kill all hostages (and they would probably would be even more likely to do so after such threats; if for example terrorists incidentally kills 1 hostage and Russia kills 50 Chechenyans, than most likely terrorists will kill 50 hostages. If Russia will kill 2500 Chechenyans, than terrorists would kill all hostages, probably also explode theater. This is definitely not a way to safe hostages)
3.Escalating the war would just make terrorists kill more hostages
4.Georgia does everything it can about terrorists in Pankis. NATO helps Georgia with advices, etc.
5.If you don't know, Iraq condemned Chechnyan terrorists, thus there is no reason for Russia to take part in yet another war.

So, you are basically saying that Putin should cave in to those barbarians and let future terrorists regard hostage takings as a viable means to push through their agendas.

No, Russia has already pissed off Cherchens beyond the point of appeasement. What they need to do now is to fvck those rebels so badly that none of them would dare to rise up. Then we can talk about appeasing the masses.

I doubt that Georgia has the means nor the courage to beat up on those bandits, yet they refuse Russian interventions. Forget about NATO personnel, a dozen of these guys aren't going to root out thousands of bandits from easily defensible terrains. You need an operation in size of Anaconda to have any kind of effect.

As for Iraq, I meant that Russia should let US have its way, and in turn the US would certainly keep a blind eye on Russian "methods".

[DanS]

I am hoping that the Russians can use their ingenuity to bring this situation to a close. It doesn't seem likely that Putin is sitting on his hands just waiting this thing out.

The US has troops trained to play these kind of games, so I'm sure Russia does too.

[Sonic]

Georgia shouldn't and wouldn't let Russian army to it's territory, it could very possibly end up in annexation of a country. The exacly same thing happened in the middle of past century (WW2), when Russia said they are coming to Lithuania with troops to save it from nazi attacks, while in reality Russia just annexed Lithuania. So it is quite common practice for Russians.

You, btw, seem to be very against Islam as a religion.

[MOBIUS]

Dino, Arrian, Spray, Siro and anyone I forgot to mention…

This is not the place for this – at least Boris was good enough to take it to PM, which I have duly answered. Chechnya and Palestine are two different situations in so many ways, I will start the thread I suggested seeing as so many of you here apparently can’t see past your prejudices enough to carry out that suggestion.

Anyone wishing to take this further PM me, or post in another thread.

======

Back to topic.

What makes people think that attacking obvious innocents is a good tactic? What a fundamental miscalculation.

That is the whole point, this will just further escalate the cycle of violence! If the hostages are killed, Russia will most probably throw everything short of nukes into the region – including the possibility of invading a portion of Georgia in an attempt to root out the rebels! If the rebels are allowed to escape (as they’ve done before) or the crisis is resolved peacefully in other ways – I still feel that Putin has been so badly humiliated that things will be bad for Chechnya…

It all depends on just how serious these terrorists are about dying – in the past generally they have actually shown a healthy interest in staying alive. So that is some hope at least. The other hope is that they will still gradually release hostages in order to bring more to safety.

Let’s hope they’re bluffing about dying – because the Russians absolutely cannot give in to the demands of these terrorists no matter the cost!