Russian Forces Enter Theatre, End Hostage Situation

[Saint Marcus]

Well, I guess I have to apologise to St. Marcus for my (ahem) little outburst before...

refresh my memory.

As opposed to having them all die at terrorist hands.

despite their claims, the terrorist didn't start killing hostages. You can see that from the total dead count. 2 killed by terrorists, 117 killed by special forces.

[The Mad Monk]

I see that as proof that the terrorists didn't get the chance to finish their work.

[Saint Marcus]

they didn't even start...

[Ned]

What is your bottom line, St. Marcus? Are you suggesting there was some other way of ending this standoff without an assault by special forces? IIRC, the last time these folks captured a lot of Russians, they let the terrorists go free. (I don't recall whether they gave into to their political demands.) But that action only incented this action, which is much worse.

As to the gas used, a 17 year old hostage was just on CNN. He said the gas was the same as the gas one uses to knock people out for operations. This could help explain the vomiting. I understand that one must not have food or water for at least 12 hours prior to being anesthetized. I also understand that the gas is very dangerous itself, which is why one needs a separate expert to administer the gas for operations.

Dumping the gas wholesale into a theater was a very dangerous thing to do. But, it seemed at the time, necessary.

[Saint Marcus]

normal anasthesia doesn't kill 1/7th of the people...

[Ned]

Saint Marcus, I understand the opposite. Normal anethesia is very dangerous and can kill.

[Saint Marcus]

so why didn't they use a lower dosage just to knock everyone out, without killing 1/7th of them?

[Ned]

Saint Marcus, I don't know. But I think they wanted to make sure the terrorists were knocked out.

[Ming]

And if a few had managed to stay awake and detonated their explosives... what then?

[The Mad Monk]

That is in fact the case.

It would not take too many alert terrorists to spark a total bloodbath.

[Saint Marcus]

so you three are all saying: just to be on the safe side, let's kill some more hostages.

[Lord Merciless]

They need enough dosis to knock a 150kg terrorist, but that dosis may well kill a 70 years old with heart problems. I bet the terrorists are physically certainly tougher than most theater goers.

As for normal asnesthetics, there are always 3% of patients who will suffer some kind of side effects despite the recommendation about inhibiting food intakes and having received the correct dosis.

I think the only blunder here was that they didn't tell doctors quickly enough about the type of the gas. I understand why they didn't tell the doctors before the assault because there might be traitors, like that policeman they recently arrested.

[The Mad Monk]

Is St. Marcus the Patron of Lost Causes?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
so you three are all saying: just to be on the safe side, let's kill some more hostages.

Regrettably hostages sometimes die in rescue opperations. It's why they are used as a last resort.

[Saint Marcus]

They need enough dosis to knock a 150kg terrorist, but that dosis may well kill a 70 years old with heart problems.

yes. some people would have died anyway, even with simple tear gas. BUT NOT 117 PEOPLE!!!

Is St. Marcus the Patron of Lost Causes?

[Saint Marcus]

Regrettably hostages sometimes die in rescue opperations. It's why they are used as a last resort.

yes, sometimes some die, usually by the hands of the terrorists. though 117 hostages is a bit too much, don't you think?

[Ming]

In this situation... even one terrorist awake and armed with a bomb would have led to a far worse situation...
A rock and and a hard place... sad, but true.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Is St. Marcus the Patron of Lost Causes?

Naah!! Simply Patron Saint of Hindsight and Second Guessing

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
yes, sometimes some die, usually by the hands of the terrorists.

Not usually.

[Capt Dizle]

The Life and Work of Saint Markos

In the Acts of the Apostles we learn that Markos , the son of Maria, lived in Jerusalem during the early formative years of the Church. His mother was one of the first members of the Church, and it appears that she was a person of means. This can be assumed from the description of her home which was decorated with columns, and which had large facilities capable of receiving great numbers of the followers of Jesus (Acts 12. 12).

This is the same house where Petros met his other brethren, after being miraculously freed by the angel of God from jail, and where he baptized Markos into the new faith. Petros, in his first letter (A' Epistle 5.13) refers to Markos as his "son", although there is not any apparent relationship between them. In Colossians 4.10 it is shown that Markos was the "nephew of Barnabas", a levite from Cyprus.

The first direct mentioning of Markos is in the Acts 12. 25. There, prior to the description of the first apostolic voyage of Paul and Barnabas, the two return to Antiochia after delivering supplies sent by the Christian brethren to the Christians of Jerusalem. There with them was "Ioannis who is also called Markos". Given that the assistance had been send at the time when Emperor was Claudius Ceasar, the trip of Markos to Antiochia took place during the 15th or 16th year from the Resurrection of our Lord.

A little later, directed by the Holy Spirit, Paul and Barnabas, taking with them Marcos, arrive to Salamis, Cyprus, where after they cross the island arrive to the city of Paphos. There takes place the conversion to Christianity of the first Roman official, Sergius Paulus.

Markos accompanied Paul and Barnabas in their second missionary journey, and again followed Barnabas when he visited Cyprus to teach about Christ. More information about Markos comes to us in the letters of St. Paul.

Ten or twelve years later, as we read in the Epistle of Paul to the Colossians (4.10) and again in Philemon (6.24) Markos is with Petros in Rome, among the few who stood by the Apostle during those trying days.

Our ecclesiastical tradition has it that Markos came to Alexandria in the year 42 and established the Church of Alexandria, and was its first bishop for 22 years.

Markos died the death of a martyr while he was being pulled through the streets of Alexandria by a pagan mob, and was buried in a nearby village.

In the year 828, Venetian merchants transported his relics to Venice, and since then he has been considered as the protector saint of this city.

[Saint Marcus]

yep, c'est moi

[Capt Dizle]

Has anyone a pagan mob handy?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Its near to Halloween. Perhaps we can dig up a Pagan ritual or two.


I used to know a bunch of Pagans up in Pennsylvania, always lookin for a brawl when anyone got near their mule.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


yes. some people would have died anyway, even with simple tear gas. BUT NOT 117 PEOPLE!!!

Details are still sketchy. We don't know about the demographic makeup of the people died. But I predict the following:
- Elderly people and people with dangerous health conditions will be disproportionaly largely represented.
- Gas distribution should be non-uniform. People from certain locations in the auditorium were more likely among the dead.

As I said before, anesthetics are dangerous.

[Boris Godunov]

Turns out the doctors are saying the deaths could have been avoided had the Russian government provided them with antidote or told them which antidote to use to treat the victims:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe...gas/index.html

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Calls are growing in Russia for an investigation into why doctors were not provided an antidote to the gas used during an operation to free hostages held at a Moscow theatre.

Captors demanding an end to the war in Chechnya held about 800 hostages for 58 hours, killing two before Russian forces stormed the building early on Saturday.

Moscow's chief doctor said 115 hostages died from health problems stemming from the "knockout" gas pumped into the building to subdue the Chechen rebels just before the raid.

Alexei Arbatov, head of the Russian parliament's defence committee, told CNN: "I blame the authorities for not providing the doctors with antidotes and instructions on how to use them.

"That was certainly a great blunder, and many people are paying for that blunder with their health -- and some even with their life," he said.

Because Russian authorities refused to tell doctors what was used, doctors spent the first few hours testing various antidotes before they found something that worked. The situation has angered doctors and the public.

About 400 people remained hospitalised on Monday.

Anguished relatives have descended on Moscow hospitals, begging for news of their kin, while others have been scouring the city morgues.

Tatiana Lukashova's 26-year-old daughter, Masha Panova, was a hostage and is now missing.

Lukashova saw a broadcast on the ORT television station Saturday that showed her daughter lying on a mattress in a hospital corridor with an oxygen mask on.

"But we didn't hear what hospital it was, and our search through all the hospitals was in vain," Lukashova told Reuters.

One doctor expressed frustration at being powerless to help survivors. "I saw no gunshot wounds at all. Those who died had swallowed their vomit or their tongue or their hearts had stopped," he told the Nezavisimaya Gazet daily.

"If only we had known beforehand. If they had told us that... it might have been a bit different."

U.S. officials believe the gas may have contained a chemical building block also found in heroin or morphine-based agents.

"Certainly there was a huge overdose because those who used it had to guarantee that even the terrorists sitting away from ventilation hatches would not have a chance to activate and explode the devices that they had," Arbatov said.

Medical officials pointed out that the hostages had been without food and drink for almost three days, and were virtually motionless in their chairs -- making them more vulnerable to the side effects of any gas used.

"All [this] took the toll on their physical and mental condition and clearly made them much more vulnerable to the agent," Arbatov said.

Survivor Andrei Naumov told CNN: "The gas used was without smell or taste and was invisible. Soon after it was pumped in, I lay on the floor and remember nothing after that -- I woke up in hospital.

"I think the terrorists were really serious about killing us. They knew they could not get away and they wanted to kill all the hostages.

"I will always remember that day, and always the remember the people who saved us. I thank them."

Moscow declared a day of mourning Monday, and President Vladimir Putin expressed his sorrow over the hostage deaths.

"We must remember those by uniting," he said.

But he also issued a defiant message to any others considering launching a similar action in Russia, telling government members: "International terrorism is increasingly cruel... if anyone tries to apply such means to our country, Russia will reply with measures adequate to the threats in all the locations of the terrorists, their organisations or their ideological and financial instigators."

So even if one posits the Russians had no choice but to use the gas, they certainly should have provided the doctors with the antidote or let them know what antidote to use. Heads should roll over this f*ck up.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
They need enough dosis to knock a 150kg terrorist, but that dosis may well kill a 70 years old with heart problems. I bet the terrorists are physically certainly tougher than most theater goers.

Rest assured, a dose of gas large enough to knockout a 150kg terrorist would strike dead virtually every single person who has contributed to this thread.

I'll just assume you meant a 150lb terrorist. :pedant:

[JCG]

This is why the Metric system should be/or shouldn't be the international norm for every country, me thinks...

Back to the topic, I THOUGHT that the Russians had antidotes prepared since the operation began, so why couldn't they just give more of the stuff to the doctors, or plainly give them the name? Such a needless blunder...

And for that matter, why did they have to use what appears to be use some "secret" OR even a probably "banned" gas?

I'm sure that they could have used some other already known/legal gas without having to resort to all this secrecy about it, even if it had to be in a higher concentration.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ned
What is your bottom line, St. Marcus? Are you suggesting there was some other way of ending this standoff without an assault by special forces? IIRC, the last time these folks captured a lot of Russians, they let the terrorists go free. (I don't recall whether they gave into to their political demands.) But that action only incented this action, which is much worse.

As to the gas used, a 17 year old hostage was just on CNN. He said the gas was the same as the gas one uses to knock people out for operations. This could help explain the vomiting. I understand that one must not have food or water for at least 12 hours prior to being anesthetized. I also understand that the gas is very dangerous itself, which is why one needs a separate expert to administer the gas for operations.

Dumping the gas wholesale into a theater was a very dangerous thing to do. But, it seemed at the time, necessary.

That can't be right. The gases used in general anesthesia require a concentration too high to be effective via administration into the general atmosphere of a room, particularily a room as big as a theater. Even if they could pipe that much in, it would take so long to build up an effective dose that people would become wary before it took effect.

[Boris Godunov]

And let's not forget a "17 year old hostage just on CNN" is hardly an expert on such gasses, I imagine.

[Ned]

Dr. Strangelove, well that is what he said. Perhaps it was a variant of the anethesia, but much more powerful. That is possible isn't it?

I understand that German doctors are trying to discover what the gas was from a German hostages.