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Old October 29, 2002, 01:00   #301
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Dr. Strangelove, well that is what he said.
Again, he = 17 year old.
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Old October 29, 2002, 01:22   #302
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Don't let it go to your head. Even a broken clock is right twice a day . . . unless it uses an electric or LED display.
I thought that my watch reading "88888:88:88" was a little suspicious!
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Old October 29, 2002, 01:52   #303
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Is it possible to administer such gas under high pressure to achieve quicker results. Like a gas bomb?
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Old October 29, 2002, 01:54   #304
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Unless administered under high pressure I wonder at how so many were affected so quickly. I supposed oderless, tasteless and invisible but really....
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Old October 29, 2002, 02:08   #305
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Moscow Theatre Gas May Have Been Fentanyl

Link:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/articl...-462171,00.html

Thanks to Drudge for the link

Quote:
German survivors provide clue to deadly theatre gas
By Daniel McGrory

DOCTORS who are treating two German survivors of the Moscow theatre siege believe that they may have identified the gas used by Russian special forces.
After examining an 18-year-old woman student and a 43-year-old businessman who were knocked out by the powerful drug, experts at a clinic in Munich believe that a narcotic called fentanyl could have killed the 115 hostages.

The drug is often found in powerful pain-killing body patches used by cancer sufferers. It is also sought by heroin addicts as it is an opiate similar to morphine and is very strong in its pure state.

Experts at the Pentagon said yesterday that they also strongly suspected that an opium-based drug had been used, but would not say if American doctors had tested any of the survivors.

Thomas Zilker, a toxicology expert at the specialist German clinic, ruled out a nerve gas, as it would have left traces in the victims’ bodies, which he had been unable to find. He said that the gas was probably something that the Russians had developed for themselves, but he was having difficulty finding information because of Russian “mystery-mongering”.

Russian officials were maintaining their mystery last night, although a top aide of President Putin insisted that the purpose of the raid “was not to kill everyone, and so the use of sarin or any other poison gas can be ruled out”. Viktor Fominykh, the Russian presidency’s top medical official, added: “Consequently it is not essential to know its composition exactly in order to provide treatment.”

Bombarded by questions, Dr Fominykh admitted that not even he had been told the precise composition of the gas pumped into the auditorium.

The Russians were reluctant to allow foreign embassies to airlift the injured, to prevent independent examinations, but Professor Zilker and his team at the Munich Klinikum Rechts Der Isar said it was “strongly indicated” that the two German survivors had consumed an unknown quantity of a synthetic narcotic with chlorinated hydrocarbons, including fentanyl.

He said that there was a very fine line between an appropriate dose of an anaesthetic and a potentially fatal overdose leading to suffocation. “You wouldn’t really have the opportunity to regulate the dosage in such a large theatre,” he said. It was possible that so much gas had been pumped into the theatre that there had not been enough oxygen.

Andy Oppenheimer, a nuclear and biological weapons expert with Janes Defence Weekly, said that fentanyl was an anaesthetic and was used as an alternative to morphine, but had never been used as a chemical weapon before. He said it was “very likely” that the Russians were reluctant to reveal the type of substance used because it would alert the US to their experimentation with it as a chemical weapon.

“These have not been outlawed by the Convention on Chemical Weapons,” he said. “There are grey areas in the way these gases can be used and the Russians may be exploiting this to be able to develop chemical weapons without contravening international law. The symptoms caused by fentanyl in this context would have been vomiting, disorientation and a collapse of the respiratory system.”

Fentanyl was first synthesised in Belgium in the late 1950s and has been used in clinical practice since the 1960s. It is an exceptionally potent analgesic for use in heart surgery.

Illegal use of the drug first appeared in the mid-1970s among the medical profession and quickly spread to other drug-users. Its biological effect is indistinguishable from that of heroin, with the exception that it may be hundreds of times more potent.



Interesting. Not a nerve gas, but not necessarily something you want your neighbors to know about.
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Old October 29, 2002, 02:15   #306
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Interesting. Not a nerve gas, but not necessarily something you want your neighbors to know about.
Isn't there already a thread on this?
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Old October 29, 2002, 02:18   #307
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This belongs here and that belongs on page 8.
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Old October 29, 2002, 02:41   #308
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I wonder when the Russian authorities will start to respect their own citizens. The way they handled this crisis is no different from the Soviet style. A human life doesn't seem to be much worth even today.
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Old October 29, 2002, 02:48   #309
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Hurricane, I do not see it that way at all. Western nations would be hard pressed to do as well.
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Old October 29, 2002, 02:49   #310
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Quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Quote:
Interesting. Not a nerve gas, but not necessarily something you want your neighbors to know about.
Isn't there already a thread on this?
How good of you to notice.
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Old October 29, 2002, 03:18   #311
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Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Hurricane, I do not see it that way at all. Western nations would be hard pressed to do as well.
But a Western nation would not try to cover up what gas was used. A Western nation would do everything in their power to treat those poisoned by the gas. A similar cover-up in a Western nation would have brought down the government in no time.
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Old October 29, 2002, 05:37   #312
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You don't think they tried their best to save lives?
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Old October 29, 2002, 06:10   #313
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Not telling doctors how to treat the wounded does not sound like the best way to save lives to me.
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Old October 29, 2002, 07:48   #314
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You don't think they tried their best to save lives?
according to the doctors: they didn't
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Old October 29, 2002, 08:34   #315
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What, the Speical Forces people? It would be entirely stupid to do anything other than rushing them (hostages) to the hospitals. I am sure the doctors know how to treated the wounded. Otherwise there would be a lot more dead by now.

The only thing they didn't do was not bring paramedics with them.
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Old October 29, 2002, 08:40   #316
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Did you notice that it's all the American righties that support the actions of the Russians? Why so? There must be some motive behind this support, otherwise there would be no difference in POV with the Euros.

Is it because all Americans are basically impulsive cowboys (of the kill'em all type)?

Is it because they have grown up in an environment with little respect on human life (with all those guns and crime and the death penalty..)?

Is it because of their anti-terrorist frenzy?

Is it because their government is developping such illegal chemical weapons and is abstaining from the relative inernational treaties? Maybe they anticipate the use of such agents by the US, in some war or hostage situation?

To everybody here: Would you accept your government to do such a reckless and inconsiderate thing, if you had been a hostage?
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Old October 29, 2002, 09:25   #317
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It is very easy for us to criticize people who are facing a life and death decision without much time to act. Some on this forum were suggesting that we deal with hijackers with the use of non-lethal gas. This is one reason that idea is not practical. You cannot control the dossage or its effects on the elderly etc.. There simply is not time however in some instances to do that which is ideal. The "right wing" has nothing to do with this. The Russians tried to save lives with the means at their immediate disposal. I would expect my government to use the best methods available but I would also expect them not to sit back waiting for the ideal situation while the hostages are being killed and threatened with mass and immediate destruction with bombs.
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Old October 29, 2002, 11:07   #318
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To everybody here: Would you accept your government to do such a reckless and inconsiderate thing, if you had been a hostage?
It depends. If the hostage takers are just a bunch of criminals, and all they want is money. Probably not. The chances of a successful negotiation is high, and it is highly implausible that the criminals want to kill themselves to blow us up.

On the other hand, if these are crazed extremists who are demanding something impossible, with bombs everywhere and strap to themselves. Sure. There is virually no chance of a peaceful outcome, and the longer the situaton drags on, the worse it becomes.

Will you argree to an operation with only a 30% chance of success, when result of not doing it is certain death?
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Old October 29, 2002, 11:11   #319
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Hey, aren't we forgetting that the Russian authorities are NOT cooperating with the hospitals treating hostages with gas poisoning?
What possible excuse can there be for such behaviour for a supposedly democratic government?
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Old October 29, 2002, 11:13   #320
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They are not?
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Old October 29, 2002, 11:15   #321
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they still aren't...doctors and families of the victims are furious
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Old October 29, 2002, 11:16   #322
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They keep saying the gas is "classified", and that no information can be given to the doctors.
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Old October 29, 2002, 12:34   #323
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Waco is the closest thing we have had in the United States. While we certainly didn't intend to kill everybody, that is what happened. Why? Because we did not us gas.

The question is whether Putin and the other leaders knew the risks. They saw Waco and knew that there was a very good possibility that the terrorists would go down fighting and killing if they did not use gas. But did they know so many would die?

I suspect the truth will come out some day.

BTW, the 17 year old boy seems to have been vindicated.
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Old October 29, 2002, 13:03   #324
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When governed by Stalin Chechens were not able to do anything of this kind. Deportation of all Chechens to Siberia will solve this.
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Old October 29, 2002, 13:09   #325
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Quote:
Originally posted by axi
Did you notice that it's all the American righties that support the actions of the Russians? Why so? There must be some motive behind this support, otherwise there would be no difference in POV with the Euros.

Is it because all Americans are basically impulsive cowboys (of the kill'em all type)?

Is it because they have grown up in an environment with little respect on human life (with all those guns and crime and the death penalty..)?

Is it because of their anti-terrorist frenzy?

Is it because their government is developping such illegal chemical weapons and is abstaining from the relative inernational treaties? Maybe they anticipate the use of such agents by the US, in some war or hostage situation?
You are quite the paranoid loon, aren't you?
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Old October 29, 2002, 13:33   #326
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Waco is the closest thing we have had in the United States. While we certainly didn't intend to kill everybody, that is what happened. Why? Because we did not us gas.
you did use gas in Waco!
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Old October 29, 2002, 14:24   #327
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Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
you did use gas in Waco!
We didn't use the wierd gas the Russians did though.
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Old October 29, 2002, 15:26   #328
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Originally posted by DinoDoc
You are quite the paranoid loon, aren't you?
What do you expect from leftiest loonies?
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Old October 29, 2002, 15:54   #329
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Ok, so I'm the paranoid?

Then why doesn't ANY single person I've discussed this in Greece and any of the Euros in here say that it was ok to use gas? Why does it have to be you and your kind? Don't you see a dislocation here? Don't you recognise that the Americans are supporting the Russian authorities with too much of a nationalistic attitude? Why didn't you do the same with the Kursk case? Back then, all you had to say is that the Russians are incopetent and your navy would never have handled the case in such a way, etc...

Isn't this somewhat bigoted, or not?
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Old October 29, 2002, 16:13   #330
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Why didn't you do the same with the Kursk case?
I don't really remember what I said about the fate of the Kursk. Would you care to enlighten me while explaining me what this has to do with anything? I'd also like to know how UR counts as an American rightie.

Why don't we try this another way? Why don't you tell me why I should be up in arms about this the way you are?
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