Russian Forces Enter Theatre, End Hostage Situation

[The Mad Monk]

Interesting how the gas knew to hit a larger proportion of terrorists than hostages.

[Saint Marcus]

yet...

cause more and more hostages are reported dead...hundreds are in the hospital now.

[Sonic]

Mad Monk, proportion was the same. Only some terrorists died, other were nconscious and special forces just shot them.

[The Mad Monk]

Same goes for the hosteges; reports say a number were killed in the crossfire, and others tripped booby traps.

[Saint Marcus]

source? all the sources I read say that most of the hostages died because of the nerve gas...

[The Mad Monk]

Analysis:Putin's dangerous gamble pays off
By Roland Flamini
UPI International Editor
From the International Desk
Published 10/26/2002 4:49 AM
View printer-friendly version


WASHINGTON, Oct. 26 (UPI) -- On Friday night, when the Chechen gunmen in the Moscow theater gave President Vladimir Putin a deadline of Saturday to give a commitment to end Russian military operations in their country, the Russian president faced two choices: give in and open negotiations, or take a dangerous gamble. He chose the gamble -- and it seems to have paid off.

As the third day of the crisis dawned in the paralyzed Russian capital special forces moved in on the theater. For two hours newsmen kept at a distance from the scene could hear gunfire and explosions. Then the Russian Interior Ministry announced that the occupation was over. Of the 70 or so men and women hostage-takers about 36 had been killed, others had been captured, even though -- more ominously -- a few had managed to escape.

Four hours after the rescue operation the authorities had still not produced a tally of casualties among the approximately 700 hostages, but according to some reports over a hundred members of the audience had been caught in the cross-fire and lost their lives, and scores of others had been injured.

Putin decided to act because the prospect of a series of hostage executions carried out by Chechen militants in his own capital was politically unacceptable. Many Russians view the fight against the breakaway Islamic republic as Putin's personal responsibility. After all, his promise of a quick and decisive end to the conflict in 2000 had got him elected president, and they would expect him to hang tough in this situation.

But the risks connected with a police action against the hostage-takers were enormous. The hostage-takers had mined the theater and threatened to destroy it if the Russians attempted to storm the building. When the Russians stormed the theater, however, there was no major explosion.

"We managed to save the theater from being blown up," Deputy Interior Mnister Vladimir Vasilyev announced Saturday, pointing to the squat bulk of the theater looming intact behind him.

The hostage-takers themselves were wired with explosives and vowed to blow themselves up rather than be taken prisoners. Considering the havoc individual Palestinian suicide bombers leave behind in a crowded Israeli bus or popular cafe, the combined impact of 70 suicide bombers would have been a major bloodbath. But again there was no indication that any of the Chechens had carried out on his or her threat.

A huge dose of luck and -- according to some Moscow analysts -- a skillfully conducted operation by elite Russian army special forces seemed on Saturday to have given Putin the outcome he was hoping for.

Why did the self-proclaimed martyrs prefer to die in the more mundane circumstances of a shootout? Skeptical Russian officials had said from the start that the Chechen militants' main objective was not to die for the Chechen cause but to focus international attention on it.

Putin's strong commitment to the U.S.-led war against international terrorism in the wake of 9/11 -- last year's terror attack on New York and Washington -- had yielded dividends for Moscow in stopping U.S. and international criticism of the Russian handling of the Chechen situation. During his election campaign, Republican candidate George W. Bush had called on Putin more than once to withdraw Russian troops from Chechnya.

After 9/11, Bush showed greater understanding of Putin's problems in dealing with Chechen separatists. After 9/11 the Russians could operate inside Chechnya without having to worry about charges of human rights violations from Washington and elsewhere.

In the past year the Russians portrayed Chechnya as a terrorist enclave. At the same time the Chechen guerrillas' links with Osama bin Laden's terrorist organization al Qaida -- real, though probably overstated -- further tarnished Chechnya's international image.

So the Russian officials are probably right to see the occupation of the theater as a desperate attempt to put their half-forgotten war

back in the world headlines.

On Friday, Red Cross negotiators apparently came close to securing the release of the 70 or so foreigners among the hostages, including Americans, Germans, and Britons. At the last minute, the Chechen militants refused to let the foreigners go partly -- observers said -- to continue to hold international attention, and to embarrass Putin.

The bonus for Putin was the reaction in Russia itself. The militants' attack is likely to harden attitudes towards the Chechens and strengthen Putin's hand in fighting separatism.

The crisis caused Putin to cancel his participation in the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Los Cabos, Mexico, Saturday but Moscow was where he had to be this week. Anyway, it rained in Mexico.






Copyright © 2002 United Press International

Link:

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=...6-041707-8858r

Thanks to Drudge for the link.

[Saint Marcus]

that's "old" news...

"Of the 70 or so men and women hostage-takers about 36 had been killed"

now: 118 hostages dead and 50 hostage takers dead. and rising...

[Giancarlo]

This is far from what could of happened... it could of been 700 hostages dead... far from worse.

false, false and false. 150+ people died because of the gas. Also, it worked way too fast for standard tear gas. In the waco raid, many were killed by the tear gas. However, that took some time to set in, while this gas killed instantly. Some of the people didn't even get time to get up out of their chair when the gas hit them, that's NOT the case with tear gas. Also, the number of deads do not correspond with the normal ammount of people allergic to tear gas.

Incorrect. Incorrect. Incorrect. Stop pulling these words out of your ass.

Also mark, I suggest you don't further your political agenda because of this. That is disgusting.

[Giancarlo]

Now this is the Russian Government's chance to respond in a forceful manner in Chechyna... trying to track down the leader of this terrorist group. The terrorists were responsible for this tragedy... nobody else but them.

[Saint Marcus]

so yous till believe tear gas was used?

[Giancarlo]

Yes. And why shouldn't I believe otherwise? Based on what I know, and getting hit with a tear gas canister, and not being abled to breath for a couple of hours I think that is what they used.

[Saint Marcus]

the leader is dead...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
the leader is dead...

No, no, no... the leader of the Chechynan rebel group in Chechyna. The leader in this terrorist attack was not the leader of the rebel group.

Stop pulling words out of thin air please. It pisses me off.

[Saint Marcus]

Yes. And why shouldn't I believe otherwise? Based on what I know, and getting hit with a tear gas canister, and not being abled to breath for a couple of hours I think that is what they used.

100+ people don't die cause of tear gas. and certainly not so suddenly.

[Saint Marcus]

that leader was dead too

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


100+ people don't die cause of tear gas. and certainly not so suddenly.

I don't think they did... I think they could of died from gunshot wounds because they could of easily got caught in the cross fire.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
that leader was dead too

Source... instead pulling words out of thin air please provide a source.

[Saint Marcus]

I don't think they did... I think they could of died from gunshot wounds because they could of easily got caught in the cross fire.

really? some terrorist were sitting dead in their chairs without gunshot wounds. that means they died because of the gas, and didn't get time to get up. they died in seconds. Also, numerous people have been reported dead as the results of gas, and the doctors haven't been able to identify the gas, so it's not tear gas.

Source... instead pulling words out of thin air please provide a source.

the uncle of the leader of this operation was a key chechen leader, and he's dead.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


really? some terrorist were sitting dead in their chairs without gunshot wounds. that means they died because of the gas, and didn't get time to get up. they died in seconds. Also, numerous people have been reported dead as the results of gas, and the doctors haven't been able to identify the gas, so it's not tear gas.

Uh huh. Source?

I still think it is tear gas.

I suggest you stop furthering your political agenda against the Russian Government.

the uncle of the leader of this operation was a key chechen leader, and he's dead.

Yes but there are other leaders they have to go after.

[Saint Marcus]

I still think it is tear gas.

you're an ignorant little bugger, aren't you? if it was tear gas, why wouldn't the Russians admit it? if it was tear gas, wouldn't the doctors recognise it?

I suggest you stop furthering your political agenda against the Russian Government.

boohoo. make me tough guy

Yes but there are other leaders they have to go after.

in all likelyness, they weren't behind this

[Giancarlo]

I don't care what you think... as you are a leftist your opinion usually doesn't make sense.

Anyways... I don't want to discuss this with somebody who is as blind as a bat.

And wants to further their agenda on a terrorist strike. In my mind that is disgusting.

[Saint Marcus]

hey Fez, there's a big protest in Spain against a war against Iraq. CNN reports that the majority of the people in Spain are against a war in Iraq. How do you feel about that?

[Saint Marcus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/2365383.stm

"At least 390 freed hostages remained in hospital on Sunday, many in a serious condition after being overcome by the mystery substance."

"the Russian authorities are maintaining an air of mystery, describing the gas used only as a "special substance"."

in other words: not tear gas.

your turn

[The Mad Monk]

Despite government denials, evidence quickly mounted that many if not most of the hostages had died not at the hands of their captors, but from the knockout gas used in the attack.

News reports said a number of hostages had thrown up after inhaling the gas and then had fallen unconscious, choking on their own vomit. In an interview this afternoon, a doctor at one Moscow hospital said every hostage death at his hospital was caused by suffocation.

"The problem was that they couldn't provide medical assistance right there at the scene," the doctor said. "They had to transport them to the hospital," by which time many victims had died.

Link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/27/in...pe/27MOSC.html

[Combat Ingrid]

IIRC, several years ago a Russian chemist was jailed for revealing that Russia was developing a substance "significantly more potent" than VX, which by itself is far more deadly than the classical nerve gases, Sarin etc.
I will try to find a link to this story, I don't really remember much about the details.

The fact that they refuse to say what killed the hostages suggests it might be a "non-licensed" substance

[Saint Marcus]

"Despite government denials, evidence quickly mounted that many if not most of the hostages had died not at the hands of their captors, but from the knockout gas used in the attack."

Thanks Mad Monk. And there you go Fez, you've once again been proved wrong. No surprises there, though he won't admit it and won't comment on the BBC and NY Times articles. The little chicken.

[Combat Ingrid]

A link about Russian chemical weapons here: http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/cbw/cw.htm

From a different site:

Nerve agent research continued. One direction was in the development of even more toxic agents. The greatest strides in this direction Vil Mirzayanov, who has related details of the Soviet chemical warfare program, has stated that the Soviets achieved considerable success with this in the period 1985, developing several highly toxic agents, currently known in the open literature only as "Foliant" agents (for the program name) and by various code designations, such as A-230 and A-232.

http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Maybe they used a "light" version of these substances

[Sonic]

Fez, if you are right that doesn't means you are warmongerer. I am quite right but I am not warmongerer in most cases.

[The Mad Monk]

Actually, choking on one's own vomit is possible with many gases, especially irritant gases such as chlorpictin.

[Combat Ingrid]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Actually, choking on one's own vomit is possible with many gases, especially irritant gases such as chlorpictin.

Yes, but the weird thing is that it seems like people are still dying from it.