Russian Forces Enter Theatre, End Hostage Situation

[Boris Godunov]

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=...6-042240-6442r

The doctors in the footage described the gas as being a neuro-paralyzing agent, one that disables the body's nervous system. The description contrasts with other reports that described it as a sleeping gas.

Fez, remember how you promised to change your ways and back up your claims with sources?

[Saint Marcus]

sigh. it is done, this thread already has degenerated into another Everyone Vs. Fez's Stupidity.

well, the positive thing is that we've established that tear gas was not used, and that this therefor wasn't a clean raid.

[Ned]

Just reading the news, it appears that the plan was to use the gas to knock everyone out, and administer anti-dote to the hostages.

But something went wrong. Either some of the gunmen were able to avoid the gas and hold up the rescuers for a while, or the special forces didn't have enough of the the anti-dote.

[Saint Marcus]

in other words: a huge **** up?

[Urban Ranger]

I don't see it as anything but a decisive victory. Given the circumstances, there's very little that can be done.

[Boris Godunov]

The hostage death toll is up to 118 now.

[Sprayber]

Marcus: What exactly would you have done differently. Like Urban stated there wasn't much of a choice for the Russians. I'm no fan of what they do in Chechnya but given the prospect of what could have happened, it turned out better than what everyone thought it would.

Interesting how they were proud of the fact the theater wasnt destroyed. It must be an impressive building to house all those people. Does anyone know if it was an old structure.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Breaking news on CNN:

All but one of the 118 dead hostages died from inhalation of the nerve gas.

[Saint Marcus]

Like Urban stated there wasn't much of a choice for the Russians.

what if the gas used turns out to be some internationally banned chemical agent? you still support them then?

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


what if the gas used turns out to be some internationally banned chemical agent? you still support them then?

Why dont you wait till that is determined one way or the other before you make up your mind. I'll reserve judgement till then. If they have used a banned chemical agent then I'll join you in condeming them. But until then all I see is that things turned out a lot better than everyone feared. Keep in mind that I think what they have done in Chechnya is a horrible thing. But the Chechens did not endure themselves to anyone by taking the hostages.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


what if the gas used turns out to be some internationally banned chemical agent? you still support them then?

Unless someone shows me a way that would have been as successful, yes, even then.

[Dr Strangelove]

IIRC Sarin and VX generally kill within 5 to 10 minutes, so I would doubt that they or something like them was used. That particular class of nerve gas agents I believe act by paralyzing the nervous system, not by knocking people out. When people pass out due to classic nerve gas poisoning it's because they are dying of asphyxia. There is an antidote, but It's difficult to imagine someone planning to use this type of agent with the hope of giving the antidote to some 700+ people within the narrow time limit before resuscitation is not possible. Then again, one report said that the Russians sent in over one hundred troops. Maybe each one was supposed to give the antidote to 5 to 10 hostages. Next problem: giving the antidote IV would take too long, but giving it IM the absorption might not be fast enough to take effect before circulatory collapse sets in, particularily if you've already waited long enough for the gunmen to become incapacitated and you've got to move one hundred troops into the building and disperse them to all the victims. Oh, and you've also got to disarm the boms.

[Saint Marcus]

All but one of the 118 dead hostages died from inhalation of the nerve gas.

in other words: the hostage takers weren't killing the hostages at all!!!

[JCG]

Well, at least TWO people did die from gunshot wounds...

Taken from CNN.com:

"'A lot of blood'
Details of the run-up to the special forces bursting into the theatre became clearer on Sunday.

A reporter for the Interfax news agency, Olga Chernyak, who was among the hostages, said: "I lost consciousness and woke up in the emergency room," she said, but she insisted the operation was necessary.

"We were all waiting to die. We understood that they would not let us out alive," Interfax quoted her as saying.

"They (Chechen rebels) killed two hostages before our eyes, a woman and a man. They shot the man in the eye, there was a lot of blood."

But she went on to say that the two hostages were killed in response to a young boy having a tantrum and running for the exit.

"He dashed towards the exit, shouting: 'Mummy, I don't know what to do.' They opened fire on him, but missed and hit seated people instead," she told Russian television from her hospital bed late on Saturday."

[The Mad Monk]

*Ahem*

'A lot of blood'
Details of the run-up to the special forces bursting into the theatre became clearer on Sunday.

A reporter for the Interfax news agency, Olga Chernyak, who was among the hostages, said: "I lost consciousness and woke up in the emergency room," she said, but she insisted the operation was necessary.

"We were all waiting to die. We understood that they would not let us out alive," Interfax quoted her as saying.

"They (Chechen rebels) killed two hostages before our eyes, a woman and a man. They shot the man in the eye, there was a lot of blood."

But she went on to say that the two hostages were killed in response to a young boy having a tantrum and running for the exit.

"He dashed towards the exit, shouting: 'Mummy, I don't know what to do.' They opened fire on him, but missed and hit seated people instead," she told Russian television from her hospital bed late on Saturday.

Putin called the operation on the theatre part of the international fight against terrorism.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe...tin/index.html

[JCG]

Good timing.

[The Mad Monk]

Chernyak said that throughout the siege the guerrillas kept threatening hostages with imminent death, telling them the building was rigged with explosives and nobody would escape.

Before the raid early on Saturday a man stumbled in, saying he had managed to get past the security cordon outside the theatre and that he was looking for his son who was among the hostages.

"They did not find the boy. So they started to beat him up in a terrifying manner," Chernyak said.

"Before that in the same way they beat up a guy who had left the toilet -- the orchestra pit -- the wrong way, just climbed out of it," she said. "He was beaten, kicked, it was awful."


The hostage-takers had threatened to kill all the hostages



The presence of 18 female suicide fighters with explosives strapped to their waists among the hundreds of frightened theatregoers added to the atmosphere of fear and violence, Chernyak said.

"These Chechen girls, they were so happy that finally they were about to be free, that finally they were about to blow themselves up," Chernyak said.

She said the women -- each carrying up to two kilos (4.4 pounds) of explosives stuffed with ball-bearings and nails -- repeatedly told terrified hostages they were looking forward to dying and taking others with them.

"When they heard a noise from outside -- some eight hours before the storming -- they immediately dispersed among the audience," Chernyak said.

After the siege was over, Russian television showed the women's bloodied black-clad bodies sprawled or slumped in their seats, still attached to their explosive devices.

None of the "black widows," so named by some local media because three of them were married to Chechen field commanders killed by Russian forces in Chechnya, managed to detonate their bombs.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe...eut/index.html

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by JCG
Good timing.

[Giancarlo]

If Mark was in charge of the rescue operation I probably see headlines saying:

"Building explodes. 100 Russian Soliders killed when in building, 750 Hostages Dead, all hostage takers killed"

hey Fez, there's a big protest in Spain against a war against Iraq. CNN reports that the majority of the people in Spain are against a war in Iraq. How do you feel about that?

They are idiots. I say the police must fire rubber bullets. They don't speak for my country. They are traitors.

CNN is wrong.

We are for the strike on Iraq... some dumbarse newstation thinks that a little group of traitors who love Saddam Hussein speaks for everybody. They do not.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
"Despite government denials, evidence quickly mounted that many if not most of the hostages had died not at the hands of their captors, but from the knockout gas used in the attack."

Thanks Mad Monk. And there you go Fez, you've once again been proved wrong. No surprises there, though he won't admit it and won't comment on the BBC and NY Times articles. The little chicken.

You really are this dumb? Go ahead and further your political agenda... if you were in charge of the operation you probably would of got everybody killed. You have no frigging idea how bad of shape the situation was... and neither do I... but it was bad... the Russians had a logistical nightmare. And yet you deny the facts? What else... another leftist in denial.

[Sonic]

Fez, so probably it otherwise if many Spanish people says against a war with Iraq and you say for the war. perhaps you are traitor then?

Anyway, as facts shows terrorists weren't killing hostages at all on regular basis (they just shot at ones trying to escape), thus probably invation wasn't needed at all? Probably terrorists would have negotiated into smaller things after they would have started wanting to eat, etc. At all Chechenyan terrorist hostage-takings terrorists said that they don't wnat to stay alive, but in all such situations before they actually agreed to much smaller demands then removing troops from Chechnya. I think probably after several days (after seeing that removing trops demand will not be accomplished) these terrorists would have also agreed to just letting them free and probably getting something like 500000 dollars. You say maybe too much for terrorists? I doubt you would say that if one of killed hostages would be your relative...

[Ming]

Originally posted by Sonic
Anyway, as facts shows terrorists weren't killing hostages at all on regular basis (they just shot at ones trying to escape), thus probably invation wasn't needed at all

Gee, they were only KILLING people that were trying to escape... Those terrorists must not have been such bad people after all... There was absolutely NO reason for the Russians to go in after them All the explosives they had were just for show, they were probably very reasonable people...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sonic
Fez, so probably it otherwise if many Spanish people says against a war with Iraq and you say for the war. perhaps you are traitor then?

Wrongo. The Spanish government which is support by an overwhelming majority of people support the war in Iraq. No, many Spanish people are not against the war. Stop accepting skewed information. CNN is famous for focusing on anti-war crowds, and not those in favor of war. I am no traitor.. I stand with my government, which is one of the biggest allies after Britain with the US. Thousands of US troops are located in my country, and I am betting nearly 100% that my government will give access to US ships in our naval bases as we did in the Gulf War.

[DinoDoc]

People die in rescue attempts, get over it.

[Giancarlo]

I am still surprised Russia did this good of a job... the Chechynans had their hands on explosives and the Russians managed to stop them from blowing up the building.

[Saint Marcus]

Fez: still think it was tear gas?

[Giancarlo]

Yup... or one of the ones I specified... I posted two links to two different kinds of anti-riot/rescue tear gas. They are american varients but the Russians have similar. I don't remember which page it is in but I suggest you have a look.

[Saint Marcus]

funny. BBC, New York Times, CNN, United Press and others report it is not tear gas...

source?

also, most of the population of Spain is against a war:

An ICM/Guardian poll found that only 33 percent of the British population support an attack on Iraq, while 44 percent oppose it.

According to an Irish Times/MRBI poll, only 22 percent of the Irish population supported the war, while 68 percent opposed it.

Most decisive was opinion in Spain, where, according to a poll held by Instituto Opina and El Pais, 87 percent opposed war, while a mere 9.3 percent supported it.

so you're the traitor. only 9.3% of your people support the war. no wonder you fled to Argentina.

[Giancarlo]

Most decisive was opinion in Spain, where, according to a poll held by Instituto Opina and El Pais, 87 percent opposed war, while a mere 9.3 percent supported it.

so you're the traitor. only 9.3% of your people support the war. no wonder you fled to Argentina.

Nope you are wrong. Once again.

My government supported by the people, is a conservative one and supports the US fully. That poll is purely crap and leftist bullshit. Stop with the leftist tantrums. Thank you and have a nice day.

[Giancarlo]

Oh and don't try to speak for my people. It is rude... I don't give a crap what you think.. because my country is going in full force to support the US. We have said they same thing the US has... UN must push hard resolutions or there should be a military strike. That simple. Those polls you should are clearly leftist, and irrelevant. I never liked El Pais... it was a lousy newspaper.