Article: Government Changes - Page 3

Gilgamensch · November 21, 2002, 06:57

As I am tired of live I thought let's get myself killed.

But is it my mistake if YOU do the mistakes, which I consider to be istakes by mistake

And by the way: Neither am I (native english speaker). I just speak it every day, kind of 8 hours a day

I think so too. Let's wait another day and let's start a poll HUUUUURRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY !!!!!!!!!

PS: Let's hope nobody will find anything else

ray:

Pedrunn · November 21, 2002, 07:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
As I am tired of live I thought let's get myself killed.

But who will correct our constitution mistakes and we do need more active people like you around here. So Wait to kill youself until we finish the demo game

Quote:

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
But is it my mistake if YOU do the mistakes, which I consider to be istakes by mistake

I dont make mistakes!!!

Pedrunn · November 21, 2002, 07:13

Quote:

PS: Let's hope nobody will find anything else ray:

Just hit me!
What would we do if our constitution dont get enough votes in the poll in which they will be presented?
T
herefore it doesnt pass

Gilgamensch · November 21, 2002, 07:19

You think we'll only have one DG????????????????

I hope we'll be able to have more than one, No not at the same time, but one after the other............

OK, I'll wait a bit

Gilgamensch · November 21, 2002, 07:24

According to the connie we would need to have 50% of 1/3 of the population...............could be quite a problem

Did you voted in my poll about the # of cities????????

J Bytheway · November 21, 2002, 10:19

You still have masculine references (ie. he, or him) in sections 1(e), 2(c), 2(d) [in which you called the officer both "him" and "it"], 2(f).

In 2(e) you say that "this overrules 2(e)" - you mean 2(f).

2(h) is meaningless and should be removed.

J Bytheway · November 21, 2002, 12:21

Also 1(i) is problematic - since, in the case of minister at least, the rest of the cabinet is being elected at the same time. Is it the old cabinet or the new that makes the decision? If it's the new, then what happens if all/most votesare tied?

Pedrunn · November 21, 2002, 13:50

UPDATE (i know i did an update today, but i think it will be nice to have the article in this page)

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Article: Government Changes

1) Elections.

(a) The Court is empowered to oversee all elections and is empowered to resolve any election disputes according to the rules in this Constitution.
(b) An election for a given government position is started if the term of the position has ended or the person in the position can no longer perfom his duties.
(c) If the reason for an election is the end of a term, the election process must start seven days before the end of the given government position term. The previous official will remain in office until the end of the term or until a new candidate is elected, whichever is the later.
(d) If the reason is the decision that the citizen in the government position can no longer perfom its duties, the election process must start immediately after this decision is made. Until a new candidate has been elected, the other members of the branch of government in question will appoint a substitute to temporarily take over the open position, allowing the game to continue.
(e) At the start of the election process, all citizens who wish to be candidates for an office must publicly express their candidacy. For this they have two days. No citizen may be a candidate for an elected office if such candidacy might cause this citizen to be in more than one elected office simultaneously.
(f) Once the time in which citizens may express their candidacy for a given elected office has expired, the Court will create an Election poll (see Article II, section 3.I) for the office, with the names of the candidates as options. The poll shall expire in five days.
(g) If only one candidate is available for an office, a Yes/No poll shall be held to decide if this person may serve in this office. This poll shall expire in five days.
(h) The candidate who received the majority of the votes and the election thread expires, this person will be declared the new holder of the office for which he was a candidate.
(i) In case of a tie in the election poll, the other newly elected members of the same branch of government position in question whose election polls were not tied will vote again to decide which one of the tied candidates will take over this position. If all polls for executive branch positions are simultaneously tied then the Court (including the newly elected member, if there is one) shall select the President, and the President shall select the other ministers from the tied candidates in their respective election polls.

2) Impeachment, Resignations or Assassination.

(a) Any Citizen may bring the case of impeachment of an elected Minister, President, or Judge to a member of the Court.
(b) The Court shall review the allegations made, allow an answer by the accused, and by a vote determine if there are proper and legal grounds to hold a Resolution poll to decide on impeachment. If the accusations are found to be without legal merit, the allegations shall be dismissed.
(c) Should a member of the Court be the subject of impeachment, he shall not take part in the decision by The Court. The President shall sit in this Court member place for the sole determination of whether the impeachment has merit, and shall be considered a “Judge” for that vote only.
(d) If the Court decides there are grounds for impeachment, it shall start a poll in which it clearly states the person to be impeached and outlines the events that led to the request for impeachment. If the impeachment is confirmed by a majority of the voters in the poll, the officer in question shall be removed from the office, losing all rights and responsibilities thereof and the court must initiate nominations for an election to fill the office.
(e) If an officer wishes to resign this officer will be asked to remain in the office until the end of the election to decide who will replace him. This overrules section 2(f). If the officer is unwilling to remain in office then paragraph 2(f) applies.
(f) Until another citizen is elected to fill the office in question, the Court will choose a willing citizen to fill that office. The Court shall give preference to its members or the citizen who disputed the office with the impeached person in the last election. The chosen citizen will have the word temporary as a prefix to the name of the office this citizen holds.
(g) If the term of an office filled by a temporary officer will end in less than two weeks the temporary officer will remain in the office until the end of the term. Otherwise a new election process for the office in question shall start and the temporary officer will remain in the office only until a new officer for the position is elected.

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All J ByTheWay Suggestions taken.

EDIT:

even more J ByTheWay sugestions taken

J Bytheway · November 21, 2002, 15:30

I'm sorry to be nitpicky but I still don't like 2(d). You're breaking with conventions used elsewhere. I suggest:

(d) If the Court decides there are grounds for impeachment, it shall start a poll in which it clearly states the person to be impeached and outlines the events that led to the request for impeachment. If the impeachment is confirmed by a majority of the voters in the poll, the officer in question shall be removed from the office, losing all rights and responsibilities thereof and the court must initiate nominations for an election to fill the office.

I'm not sure it's necessary to mention the election at all, however - I believe that is covered elsewhere.

The problem in 1(i) is still present, perhaps this would cover all possibilities:

(i) In case of a tie in the election poll, the other newly elected members of the same branch of government position in question whose election polls were not tied will vote again to decide which one of the tied candidates will take over this position. If all polls for executive branch positions are simultaneously tied then the Court (including the newly elected member, if there is one) shall select the President, and the President shall select the other ministers from the tied candidates in their respective election polls.

mapfi · November 21, 2002, 15:42

all elections tied??!!

Talk about writing a constitution for a one in a million event!

Just as a side note and not a proposal: In politics a tie in votes is usually resolved with a draw. Has happened before, I can recall a mayor election in a size 60'000 city in Switzerland where this was the case.

J Bytheway · November 21, 2002, 17:04

With a voting population as small as we are likely to have, I don't think it's as unlikely as it might sound. Probably only 1 in 1,000 or so.

mapfi · November 21, 2002, 17:45

Aren't you one of those math nerds?...

If we took a vote as a bernoulli experiment with p=0.5 and have 20 voters (who choose between two canditates) then the chance of having a tie comes from a binomial distribution and the probabilty would be 20!/10!(20-10)! * (0.5)^20 which is equal to 0.176... Now if we assume 4 minister elections the chance of an all tie would be this to the fourth power, that's 0.00096..., so yes one in a thousand is a good guess John!
Of course that's only math - real life chances could be significantly lower...

OK, sorry for boring everybody else to death...

J Bytheway · November 22, 2002, 06:21

That's quite scary. Perhaps all this probability I'm learning is helping my probablistic intuition.

And there's another problem: what happens when there's only one candidate and a majority votes to reject?

Gilgamensch · November 22, 2002, 07:12

My suggestion:

first: asking for more volenteers.
second new poll.

If still the same result, s(he) is choosen anyway............

Locutus · November 22, 2002, 07:26

Yes, ending up with all ties is quite possible. I wanted to have a run-off poll when possible to reduce chance of locking up the whole system in the first place...

Quote:

Originally posted by J Bytheway
And there's another problem: what happens when there's only one candidate and a majority votes to reject?

In the earlier drafts, we used to have this:

(k) In the event that there is no candidate for any government position, the Court must immediately choose a willing Citizen for this office. The appointed citizen must be confirmed by a majority of the voters in a Yes/No poll that shall last three days.

(So if all candidates are rejected, the Court will have to find a new one). I don't know what happened to it in the latest drafts though...

Also, I'd like to second John's earlier comment: WTF is assassination? You planning on hiring hitmen to visit me at my house and actually kill me?

mapfi · November 22, 2002, 07:32

probablistic intuition? There's no such thing - you were just lucky

Gilgamensch · November 22, 2002, 07:53

Actually Locutus, where you mentioned it, yes you are right.

And as reading back, I haven't found any objection against it

Hitman? Who is using a hitman, nowadays you send a virus......far better and not so easy to trace back

H Tower · November 22, 2002, 13:36

i think by assasination, he means a roleplaying excuse for someone just disapearing

Pedrunn · December 5, 2002, 08:42

Quote:

CTP2DG Constitution
At the start of the election process, all citizens who wish to be candidates for an office must publicly express their candidacy. For this they have two days.

I think three days is for the best, dont you?

Gilgamensch · December 5, 2002, 09:57

Actually, for me it wouldn't make so much difference between 2 or 3 days, but for most important is that at least one day is a working day. (in the moment only access during the day at work........)

But that might be only me........ Have to check Locutus poll about it (again)!!!!!!!

mapfi · December 10, 2002, 07:29

Are we done with this one yet? Can you do another update Pedrunn, so we've got the constitution ready when the Court is elected.

Pedrunn · December 10, 2002, 23:14

Article: Government Changes

1) Elections.

(a) The Court is empowered to oversee all elections and is empowered to resolve any election disputes according to the rules in this Constitution.
(b) An election for a given government position is started if the term of the position has ended or the person in the position can no longer perfom his duties.
(c) If the reason for an election is the end of a term, the election process must start eight days before the end of the given government position term. The previous official will remain in office until the end of the term or until a new candidate is elected, whichever is the later.
(d) If the reason is the decision that the citizen in the government position can no longer perfom its duties, the election process must start immediately after this decision is made. Until a new candidate has been elected, the other members of the branch of government in question will appoint a substitute to temporarily take over the open position, allowing the game to continue.
(e) At the start of the election process, all citizens who wish to be candidates for an office must publicly express their candidacy. For this they have three days. No citizen may be a candidate for an elected office if such candidacy might cause this citizen to be in more than one elected office simultaneously.
(f) Once the time in which citizens may express their candidacy for a given elected office has expired, the Court will create an Election poll (see Article II, section 3.I) for the office, with the names of the candidates as options. The poll shall expire in five days.
(g) If only one candidate is available for an office, a Yes/No poll shall be held to decide if this person may serve in this office. This poll shall expire in five days.
(h) The candidate who received the majority of the votes and the election thread expires, this person will be declared the new holder of the office for which he was a candidate.
(i) In case of a tie in the election poll, the other newly elected members of the same branch of government position in question whose election polls were not tied will vote again to decide which one of the tied candidates will take over this position. If all polls for executive branch positions are simultaneously tied then the Court (including the newly elected member, if there is one) shall select the President, and the President shall select the other ministers from the tied candidates in their respective election polls.

2) Impeachment or Resignations.

(a) Any Citizen may bring the case of impeachment of an elected Minister, President, or Judge to a member of the Court.
(b) The Court shall review the allegations made, allow an answer by the accused, and by a vote determine if there are proper and legal grounds to hold a Resolution poll to decide on impeachment. If the accusations are found to be without legal merit, the allegations shall be dismissed.
(c) Should a member of the Court be the subject of impeachment, he shall not take part in the decision by The Court. The President shall sit in this Court member place for the sole determination of whether the impeachment has merit, and shall be considered a “Judge” for that vote only.
(d) If the Court decides there are grounds for impeachment, it shall start a poll in which it clearly states the person to be impeached and outlines the events that led to the request for impeachment. If the impeachment is confirmed by a majority of the voters in the poll, the officer in question shall be removed from the office, losing all rights and responsibilities thereof and the court must initiate nominations for an election to fill the office.
(e) If an officer wishes to resign this officer will be asked to remain in the office until the end of the election to decide who will replace him. This overrules section 2(f). If the officer is unwilling to remain in office then paragraph 2(f) applies.
(f) Until another citizen is elected to fill the office in question, the Court will choose a willing citizen to fill that office. The Court shall give preference to its members or the citizen who disputed the office with the impeached person in the last election. The chosen citizen will have the word temporary as a prefix to the name of the office this citizen holds.
(g) If the term of an office filled by a temporary officer will end in less than two weeks the temporary officer will remain in the office until the end of the term. Otherwise a new election process for the office in question shall start and the temporary officer will remain in the office only until a new officer for the position is elected.