Play the world... - Page 2

Tuberski · November 6, 2002, 22:24

Quote:

Originally posted by HappySunShine
It doesn't even really matter that the MP isn't working because the game still sucks. It still takes forever to research techs, there's still an enormous corruption rate so there will always be a cap on cities, maps are still horrible and will start you next to a sea of swamps or forest, and the list goes on and on. It was a bad game to begin with and MP hasn't made any improvements. I've already uninstalled everything having to do with civ3 from my computer.

Or it could simply mean that the Civ 2 MP god sucks at civ 3.

ACK!

HappySunShine · November 7, 2002, 02:18

Civ3 is easier than civ2. I mean it's not like you can fall behind in civ3. If you fall behind techs get cheaper and your opponent is awarded massive corruption for having more cities. Civ3 awards the lesser player and handicaps the better player. But then again nobody accused the people at Firaxis of being intelligent.

rah · November 7, 2002, 11:21

While I agree with you that I really dislike the tech model and the corruption model (rumor has it that it's quite easy to change the corruption levels), one might argue that the continual equalization of opponents will require even more skill to keep an edge in the game. Many of the old tired strats that were so effective in civII won't give you the same edge. The old dogs will have to learn new tricks. If after your limited experience, it's your contention that there are no new tricks to be learned, I might say you're satisfied living off your past victories instead of striving for new ones.
But I know you're way to competive for that.

But we'll see. Originally most of the discussions claimed that it would be quite modable to suit a wide range of desires. That will be one of the first things that I check out when I get it. Hopefully this weekend.

RAH
But based on what I've read and my experiences with SP III. I still much prefer MP II.

HappySunShine · November 7, 2002, 14:44

Quote:

While I agree with you that I really dislike the tech model and the corruption model (rumor has it that it's quite easy to change the corruption levels), one might argue that the continual equalization of opponents will require even more skill to keep an edge in the game. Many of the old tired strats that were so effective in civII won't give you the same edge. The old dogs will have to learn new tricks. If after your limited experience, it's your contention that there are no new tricks to be learned, I might say you're satisfied living off your past victories instead of striving for new ones.

Nobody accused Rah of being intelligent either. Of course the game is modable, but then you have like 60 different versions of the game floating about and that never works in MP. Not to mention that in order for MP to work you need to have a standard that can only be set by the developer. Well we have their standard and it sucks. But lets face it, Firaxis never expected MP to be successful in the first place, the single player add ons are why they did PTW. MP has never sold well and it never will. You think Firaxis doesn't know this? You think it was just an accident that MP doesn't work right now?

rah · November 7, 2002, 15:47

I agree that it would be good if the developer sets the standard, but as you said it sucks. (and I'm sure I'll agree with you when I check out the game since the base SP game sucked) But I have full faith that groups of people will be able to come up with their own standards that will make it enjoyable to them. There are some standard rules sets for CIVII MP that are quite popular. And a lot of people use them with slight modification, so I think you're overstating the problem.

I really don't care if MP is commercially successful as long as we get a playable game out of it. That will be worth the money to me. I've gotten 100 x my money's worth out of II.

RAH
Your attempts at insults are quite feeble for a clever person like you. I suggest you work on them a bit.

DrSpike · November 7, 2002, 15:51

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths Rah goes to to post reasonable responses when Eyes flames him.

It might be fun to start a thread with examples of when Eyes has successfully baited Rah, but I can only remember a couple of times.

rah · November 7, 2002, 16:41

Actually it's quite easy not to be baited.
Despite his abrasivness, Eyes is a premier CIV player, who's skills/opinions I respect quite highly. Even if he gets a bit repetitive, his insights are sharp.

And when he responds to my posts, once the insult is done, it is obvious that he read what I said and makes an attempt to actually respond to it. Much better than in the OT, where people never seem to listen, but still respond. (not to be taken as a general condemnation of the OT, I've just spent way too much time there recently.

)

Besides, if he really gets my goat with an insult, I can always ban him.

But I doubt that will happen.

War4ever · November 7, 2002, 17:05

WELL FiiCK DOES THIS MEAN WERE GOING TO BE PLAYING CIV3 MP NOW

or is civ2 still the standard

Ming · November 7, 2002, 17:09

Until I get my CD drive running again, I'll still be playing Civ II. Which is fine by me

rah · November 7, 2002, 17:13

From all reports, it will be a while before CIV III is really ready for us. I'll bet we'll still be playing II for the next 3 or 4 months, and then again 8 or 9 months later.

Rich

Hydey · November 7, 2002, 17:18

5 years later

Ming · November 7, 2002, 17:32

Hopefully shorter than 5 years. Some of the new victory conditions for Civ III will make for one night games that can actually be one. Some of the concepts are interesting... now if they can only make it work

War4ever · November 7, 2002, 18:34

ok sounds good....you had me scared there for a momment....i thought i was going to have to practice my civ3 mp some more....

and rah, that time frame looks right.... from my trials of civ3 mp....the game so far is a major flop...but thats not to say that the victory conditions wont make for some fun games when there work out the bugs, but lag right now for anything less than a duel isn't really desirable.....

but i would like to play test with you guys...so let me know once you have it ...

rah · November 7, 2002, 18:42

Like I said, I'll probably buy it this weekend. I'd really like to test it with players of similar skill level

Flatlander Fox · November 7, 2002, 18:51

Until they get a direct IP connection, I don't think that many are going to be able to play it anyway.

I have tried about four games, and am actually pleasantly suprised with the SP now. How that translates to MP will be a whole other ball game though.

I will be around for testing though, and as soon as the IP connect patch comes out, we will really be in business.

Tuberski · November 7, 2002, 19:27

Quote:

Originally posted by HappySunShine
It doesn't even really matter that the MP isn't working because the game still sucks. It still takes forever to research techs, there's still an enormous corruption rate so there will always be a cap on cities, maps are still horrible and will start you next to a sea of swamps or forest, and the list goes on and on. It was a bad game to begin with and MP hasn't made any improvements. I've already uninstalled everything having to do with civ3 from my computer.

This, followed by this:

Quote:

Originally posted by HappySunShine
Civ3 is easier than civ2. I mean it's not like you can fall behind in civ3. If you fall behind techs get cheaper and your opponent is awarded massive corruption for having more cities. Civ3 awards the lesser player and handicaps the better player. But then again nobody accused the people at Firaxis of being intelligent.

Bad starts I agree with, corruption I agree with, but is getting Techs easier or harder?

You have to choose one, not claim both.

ACK!

Ming · November 7, 2002, 19:33

Both points are correct. If you are in the lead, there is a tech development penality. If you are behind, it's easier for you to get a tech then it is for the leader. As Eyes points out, there is a built in equalizer to help people that are behind in techs.

Like Eyes, I'm not a big fan of this feature. If you are the first to research a science, it takes forever to get it.
It does tend to make it impossible to maintain great science leads like you can do in Civ II.

Tuberski · November 7, 2002, 20:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
Both points are correct. If you are in the lead, there is a tech development penality. If you are behind, it's easier for you to get a tech then it is for the leader. As Eyes points out, there is a built in equalizer to help people that are behind in techs.

Like Eyes, I'm not a big fan of this feature. If you are the first to research a science, it takes forever to get it.
It does tend to make it impossible to maintain great science leads like you can do in Civ II.

Only thing I can say to that is. When I'm ahead, I usually get Tech in 4 turns.

The fastest another player can get that tech is also 4 turns.

So, once again, we are back to the conclusion that Eyes is very good at Civ 3.

Of course, playing the game helps that.

ACK!

Ming · November 8, 2002, 03:04

If all players are going for a "new" science, you are probably correct. The problem is, if you are going for a new one, you face the new science penality. This allows people behind you in techs to catch up faster. This was NOT the case in Civ II... This let's screw the leader in science stuff is fine playing against a bunch of AI's... but really sucks in a MP game. To get screwed by being in the lead takes a lot of fun out of the game.

Tuberski · November 8, 2002, 18:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
If all players are going for a "new" science, you are probably correct. The problem is, if you are going for a new one, you face the new science penality. This allows people behind you in techs to catch up faster. This was NOT the case in Civ II... This let's screw the leader in science stuff is fine playing against a bunch of AI's... but really sucks in a MP game. To get screwed by being in the lead takes a lot of fun out of the game.

It is still possible to get a "new" tech in 4 turns, no matter how cheap previous techs are they still take a minimum of 4 turns to research.

You can't increase your tech lead, but it won't shrink at this rate.

ACK!

atawa · November 10, 2002, 10:13

So whats the verdict on PTW sofar?

Worth downloading? uhm I mean buying off course

CapTVK · November 10, 2002, 11:05

From a scenario standpoint I don't like what I've read so far. No proper scenarios like the original Rome and WW2 in Civ2 have been included in PTW. Just a number of homemade Civ3 mods/maps/scen. Which you could have downloaded from the net anyway. It would be like buying the "Conflicts in Civilization" or "Fantastic World" Civ2 addons and finding out all the scenarios are fan efforts.

Cheap, very cheap...

Flatlander Fox · November 10, 2002, 12:05

Yep, I've tried many of the scenarios and don't really care for many of them (Probably my own fault, not the creators).

The editor is a complete joke, and angers me greatly. I can't believe that they even call it one.

Gaming on Gamespy(ware) is impossible. Whether it's the site, or the game, I'm not sure.

Alexander's Horse · November 10, 2002, 16:24

Huge amount of censorship going on the civ 3 boards

Even raising the Gamespot review gets you shut down

CapTVK · November 10, 2002, 16:36

I have a feeling Yin26 is feeling very smug now. Boy, he would have a fieldday with this!...

Has anyone seem him around since the world soccer championships btw?

Alexander's Horse · November 10, 2002, 16:53

Its just too pitiful to be funny.

And those Bozos from Firaxis are nowhere to be seen on those boards.

Alexander's Horse · November 10, 2002, 17:03

Mark G should let all people express their opinions so other consumers can make informed decisions.

DrFell · November 10, 2002, 19:46

You can say that again.

You really can. I've been really disappointed by the PTW reviews so far. I thought it'd be this really polished sequel, with very few bugs etc. Especially with the beta testing. How they got it wrong this time is beyond me. Good thing I have so little time to play civ nowadays anyway.

rah · November 11, 2002, 10:30

Thanks to all the GREAT

comments here, I put off buying the game this weekend again. Maybe I should just wait for the first patch (and only if it has IP to IP support).

If you look carefully, I don't think the this site is trying to censor negative comments. It looks like they're just trying to keep some order about it. I saw quite a few 1 or two response complaint threads. It's not necessary for each person to start their own ***** thread. It doesn't take much effort to find one and contribute to it.

RAH

DrSpike · November 11, 2002, 10:43

I have been keeping up with reviews and feedback and I can understand your delaying purchase. It seems these days that only games that are clearly aimed at a MP audience (usually RTS games like Warcraft 3 and Age of Empires/Mythology) actually function well in MP with good support.

I have also been playing Medieval: total war (unlike PTW I bought this as soon as it came out), which was unplayable for MP out of the box, and even the first patch hasn't addressed that many MP issues.

In retrospect it was probably quite lucky that civ2 makes such a great MP game............outside of popular RTS the trend seems to be unpromising for MP strategy.

A pessimistic 2 cents.