Cradle 1.34a

[hexagonian]

I posted 1.34b as an 'unofficial' patch as the changes had not been tested in a game.

I'm assuming that you did have 1.34a already on your system and unzipped 1.34b over existing files. 1.34b included only the files that changed from 1.34a - and you do need to have 1.34a.

The files included in 1.34b are all in the default_aidata folder...
CRA_Goals.txt (numerical changes only)
CRA_strategies.txt (numerical changes only)

and default_gamedata folder...
CRAEU_gamefile.txt (changes the Modswapper option to 1.34b)
CRAS_gamefile.txt (changes the Modswapper option to 1.34b)
CRARR_gamefile.txt (changes the Modswapper option to 1.34b)
CRAB_gamefile.txt (changes the Modswapper option to 1.34b)
CRAG_gamefile.txt (changes the Modswapper option to 1.34b)
CRAI_pw_cheat.slc (numerical changes only)

Since I have never worked with the foreign language files, I'm not sure about the process, and exactly what files you have to switch to get it to work on the Italian version that you have, but I'm assuming that all you need to change for language compatibility are in the english_gamedata folder.

But if you want to do the changes yourself on your current setup, the changes are listed in this thread.

To cut the AI tech gap, go into
CRAI_pw_cheat.slc

and locate the line
my_gold = my_pop * 5;

and change to
my_gold = my_pop * 2;

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Turambar
I had the same problem.

Make a copy of the MESSAGEICON.TXT file in the Ctp2_data/default/gamedata directory and rename it CRA_MESSAGEICON.TXT and it should work.

Thanks that seems to sort the problem - i'll post my impressions later.

[Adriano]

Hey the barbarian kicks!!!!.
Three times I was banished before 1500 BC.

The last time 2 hordles of 10,7 units approached my capital Hextapul..... ......no way.

Now I wanna try 1.34a with A.I. bonus reduced

Cradle 1.34b
UG Map
Hard level
Nasty barb.

[child of Thor]

Craddle 1.34b (used the more relaxed Diplomod, 3.6 i think?).
Huge map
8 civs
Medium dif
Roaming barbs.

Present year 510bc(about 4hrs ish total play).

Something strange with the Science graph in the rankings tab. I shows rather odd readings, i don't know if it does it from the begining(I don't like to check the rankings untill i've met a few other civs). It was showing that at around turn 97ish all civs apart from myself and the Zulu's 'crashed' and decided not to pursue science anymore???? This may not be specific to 1.3b but as the science files have been changed - i dunno.
Anyway the Zulu's according to the chart have a huge science lead(like maybe the combination of all the other civs?) and then there is me.......no one else.....strange.

I tested this out by establishing a few embassies and of course the Zulu's didn't have more than a few techs over myself and a couple of the other civs were showing normal tech levels - so it's just the science graph that is messed up.

The game itself is going very nicely. I'm about the second emerging superpower with a few very close 3rd and 4th civs nipping at my heals.
I've lost cities on 5 occasions(and reclaimed 4 of them) and failed to take cities about the same amount of times. I've been spectacularly betrayed by my closest ally(cost me one city!).
I have seen a few barb cities(I took one and gave it my ally) and have had a small amount of barbarian sightings within my empire, but not to the degree Hexagonian hinted he was seeing(different barb setting?).
I've built 6 wonders(maybe too many?!) and have a nice internal trade system going on(about 320gold per turn).
I'll have to play the unchanged diplomod 1.34b to see the difference with diplomacy compared to my current game - but it's been quite fair overall, I win some i lose some.

Ok a few other things, I do see what you(hex) meant by the barbs disrupting the ai civs alot. One civ has been having a constant back and forth problem with cities within it's empire turning barbarian. It even built Hadrians Wall wonder to sort it out i think(!), but after about 20-30 turns they were back. The barbs never threatend to take over the civ, but were constantly getting one or two cities, loseing them and getting them back again.
Early on i destroyed one civ and recently a new(not one of the origonal 8) civ took over a city of an existing civ in much the same way the barbs seemed to spring up?

The tech tree has done something strange - I already have a longship but 'ocean fareing' which gives that unit has appeared in my techs to research list. I'm pretty sure i had already discovered this tech or got it in an exchange - which promted my coracle to be upgraded to the Longship????? Or maybe i've done too many hours of CTP2 recently

But overall the Ai is much less hesitant to launch an attack on a city - this is very apparent and that change is working well(in fact there has been some angry city swaping going on between the various civs, mine included ). It still pillages from time to time but i'm alot more worried when a decent stack starts heading my way - which is how it should be!
I haven't been attacked by barbs much, but that could be the setting i chose.
The tech gap is much more even and for me this makes it more fun to play. I'm not the top in advances but it just feels more balanced and i don't feel like the Ai are all swapping techs(even if they are at war with each other) between each other.
The flip side of that is that my now 15 city empire can churn out alot of Wonders and I've beaten the Ai to the last three in a row. It's now 100bc and i guess my tech level is about right - i haven't got tanks yet!
Still i have to make sure my cities are well defended where as before i would leave 2-3 units in most(more on the frontiers), i don't feel secure with less than 6 in most and more on the frontiers. I've had the Ai march straight into the heart of my civ and attack less well defended cities.

Overall i think this is going very nicely and apart from the few odd things mentioned above i'm having one of my best games of CTP2, excellent work

[Amesjustin]

I was perusing/modding the slics in this mod when I noticed there were 3 disasters in the two related slics which I have never seen in the game (which I have played extensively):

Epidemics (as opposed to Plagues)
Volcanoes
Tsunamis

I altered the statistics in Disaster.slc so the last 2 would occur at every other turn, and I think I added new messages in DisMsg.slc, unless \\ denotes comments - then I just added comments. I am new to the slic language.

My question is are these active in the game and the messages just aren't working (I have seen tiles die early in the game for no reason) or have they been disabled? If they have, why and can/should I flip them back on?

Thanks

-Justin

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by child of Thor
Something strange with the Science graph in the rankings tab. I shows rather odd readings, i don't know if it does it from the begining(I don't like to check the rankings untill i've met a few other civs). It was showing that at around turn 97ish all civs apart from myself and the Zulu's 'crashed' and decided not to pursue science anymore???? This may not be specific to 1.3b but as the science files have been changed - i dunno.
Anyway the Zulu's according to the chart have a huge science lead(like maybe the combination of all the other civs?) and then there is me.......no one else.....strange.

I tested this out by establishing a few embassies and of course the Zulu's didn't have more than a few techs over myself and a couple of the other civs were showing normal tech levels - so it's just the science graph that is messed up.

This one has me stumped because I've noticed it too, and that chart was working in Cradle 1.3. But based on your observation, the AI is researching. I would say for the time being, players will have to ignore that chart and use the overall powergraph to gauge their standings (along with embassies). Not ideal though...

Originally posted by child of Thor
The tech tree has done something strange - I already have a longship but 'ocean fareing' which gives that unit has appeared in my techs to research list. I'm pretty sure i had already discovered this tech or got it in an exchange - which promted my coracle to be upgraded to the Longship????? Or maybe i've done too many hours of CTP2 recently

I originally had Longships enabled at Hullmaking, but changed it for 1.34 to Ocean Faring. Looks like I forgot to fix the updater code to reflect the change I made for the enable advance for Longships.

Originally posted by child of Thor
I'm not the top in advances but it just feels more balanced and i don't feel like the Ai are all swapping techs(even if they are at war with each other) between each other.
The flip side of that is that my now 15 city empire can churn out alot of Wonders and I've beaten the Ai to the last three in a row. It's now 100bc and i guess my tech level is about right - i haven't got tanks yet!

The downside of tech parity is that you probably will have the inside track for Wonders.

The cut I made to the AI was a drastic cut, but I can bump it up a notch. That way the AI will maintain a good lead, but not an overpowering one.

Originally posted by Amesjustin
I was perusing/modding the slics in this mod when I noticed there were 3 disasters in the two related slics which I have never seen in the game (which I have played extensively):

Epidemics (as opposed to Plagues)
Volcanoes
Tsunamis

I altered the statistics in Disaster.slc so the last 2 would occur at every other turn, and I think I added new messages in DisMsg.slc, unless \\ denotes comments - then I just added comments. I am new to the slic language.

My question is are these active in the game and the messages just aren't working (I have seen tiles die early in the game for no reason) or have they been disabled? If they have, why and can/should I flip them back on?

Did you do a /reloadslic on your current game or start a new one???

There's also a CRA_disaster_str.txt in the english/gamedata folder that may need to be changed.

I'm not a SLIC expert either - Immortal Wombat created the code and he could probably fill you in on more of the details.

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by hexagonian

Did you do a /reloadslic on your current game or start a new one???

There's also a CRA_disaster_str.txt in the english/gamedata folder that may need to be changed.

I'm not a SLIC expert either - Immortal Wombat created the code and he could probably fill you in on more of the details.

Starting new games (several dozen) from Modswapper.

I'll check out the the txt file when I get home tonight.

[Immortal Wombat]

Tsunamis should have been disabled, they weren't working as I wanted. Epidemics I never had any problem with, although they do only work after you have discovered "Medicine" - and they replace plagues.

Volcanoes are just really really unlikely. Probably too unlikely actually. It's about a 1 in 166 each turn, but then the volcano only occurs if that 1/166 happens to hit a mountain, volcano, or rift. So you'll get one erutption a game if you're (un)lucky...

[Adriano]

Could smeone explain the difference between medium and hard level?
Is the second settler the only or they have different statistics

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Adriano
I was in very late about techs discovering so i contacted another civ to try change chariot tech for money.
Although the civ agreed to it ( and so my cash lost 2000 ) I did'nt find the tech in my discovered techs window!!!. I replied the negotiation with the same result.......

From Dale...
The bug: (This is on the Pacific version, patch v1.11)
I've had a look into it, and can actually replicate it. It seems to only occur when you "Request a tech" and "Offer gold". However, I received the tech if I did "Offer gold" and "Request a tech". Interestingly too, the AI didn't receive the gold in the later request. My belief is that there is a problem with "offer gold" related diplomacy proposals where the first part of the offer doesn't occur even if the second part does. Unfortunately I
haven't had enough time to experiment further with other types of offers.

One's I think need full testing are:

- Request something, offer gold.
- Offer gold, request somthing.
- Offer something, request gold.
- Request gold, offer something.
- With an embassy, without an embassy.
- With a treaty (whichever), without a treaty.

Maybe we can enlist the help of players to do this?

RE: Difficulty levels
Medium AI has equal bonuses to the human in the areas of production and food Basically, if you are running close to the AI or behind the AI you will both be getting the same. The AI, if it is far behind, still gets a sizable bonus in those areas.

On 'Hard' those bonuses are increased - anywhere from 5-10% and the AI starts with an additional settler.

In terms of gold and PW, the AI does get a large boost due to a SLIC file addition - it is 5 gold per pop. and 0-20 PW per pop (I cannot set this file up to be different based on difficulty level). This file greatly slants the game toward the AI, even more that I anticipated, and also skews the difficulty levels, so even the lower levels are tough.

There is a 1.34b setup available that greatly reduces the gold bonus. Currently I'm not happy with the changes in the Strategies when playing with Barbarians, but a player can use the SLIC file (CRAI_pw_cheat_slc) in that setup to bring the AI more down to earth. Simply take that file and replace the existing one in your 1.34a setup - discard the other files if you do not want to use them.

[Lou Wigman]

I'm missing something here. I've downloaded 1.34a although I haven't had a chance to play it yet. But where do I get 1.34b. Its not on hexegonians website.

[child of Thor]

Lou it's in the thread 'This packs AI fighting ability sucks' in this forum, futher down.........i'd giva a link but last time i tried it wanted me to put such stupid long number/letter combinations i decided not to bother! hope you find it.

EDIT: it works now? try here

[Radical_Manuvr]

I'd like to try out the Cradle mod. What do I need to download to use it? Just the most recent update or 1.3 then the most recent update or some other combination? All I have now is Modswapper and an old version of MedMod, nothing for Cradle. Thanks.

BTW: Locutus posted code to determine governments. I downloaded it but haven't looked at it yet. It's under Files/Modification/Text and slic files.

[Adriano]

RM:Act patch 1.11 Modswapper
Cradle 1.3; 1.32 Update 1.34a update; eventually 1.34b
I suggest Leonardo Graphic pack
Don't forget to edit userprofle.txt and set debugslic=No.
Enjoy.

[Pedrunn]

I think only one of the version 1.3 + updates 1.34 is enough

[Peter Triggs]

Good to see you back RM.

Immortal Wombat implemented a workable version of the Natural Disaster code you guys were talking about all those months ago. It's in Cradle as are quite a few other SLIC options.

[Dale]

Radical:

Actually, that code was by me. He hasn't updated the userprofile of the file.

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Volcanoes are just really really unlikely. Probably too unlikely actually. It's about a 1 in 166 each turn, but then the volcano only occurs if that 1/166 happens to hit a mountain, volcano, or rift. So you'll get one erutption a game if you're (un)lucky...

They don't work properly - at least not the messaging.

I tweaked the probabilty from (>=985 out of 999) to (>=10 out of 999). I started a game with the fog of war off and played for about 120 turns.

I was getting hit at pretty much every turn with Plague messages, and usually there was no plague. I never saw a single message about a volcano. At every turn, 1 or more seemingly random dead tiles appeared, even in the middle of the ocean. They appeared to be grouping around the cities of all civs, and not in the empty areas.

I am not sure if this was the desired effect of volcanoes, but I found it rather odd that they grouped around cities. One thing I would like to see is the volcano tile from Samurai scenario pop up, with a few dead tiles around it that would eventually (25 turns or so) regenerate into grassland (rich soil and all). I did see some regeneration code in there, but it looks like that was disabled.

At any rate, the messaging system seems to be getting confused. Maybe its just my PC.

Any way - just thought I would pass that along - other than this this is a killer mod.

[Immortal Wombat]

The random dead tiles are the effects of the volcano. I have no idea why it should be grouping though.

The volcano tile(s) from the samurai scenario would be possible to implement, but I don't think it's worth it. Also, regeneration is pretty much impossible I think.

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
Also, regeneration is pretty much impossible I think.

Why???

I dont think it is that hard at all.

[ahenobarb]

BTW: Immortal Wombat, if you are planning to tweak the Natural Disasters code, the reason the earthquake message doesn't display the x and y location of the epicenter and the message sticks in the message box is that the variables need to be global. Once, they're global these problems will go away. Just a minor note.

Otherwise, the code is great. I wouldn't play without it.

[Immortal Wombat]

Ok, I'm an idiot. I thought I'd need handlers for all different volcanoes, which I obviously don't - it needs an array. Then I thought I'd need another array to do the countdown for each one, and some way of filling in the blank bits when the countdown ended.

But then I came up with the elegant solution of using the array itself as the countdown.

This is untried, untested, and though AFAICT there are no syntax errors, it may not work as advertised. You might want to take a look though.

ahenobarb, that message was meant to be taken out, but as it's here, I've made the variables globals. Thanks for the heads-up on that

[Radical_Manuvr]

Thanks Peter.

Wow, my small contribution was left in the disaster code. Cool. Nice of you guys. Looks like the disasters expanded and changed a lot from the stuff I was working on. Guess it's been a year or more.

Looks like it might be a while b4 I can download the cradle mod. My current connection is 16800 and I keep getting disconnected when I get a better connection.

Thanks to those who told me what I need to DL. Hopefully I'll get my connection problems straightened out and DL it soon.

[Adriano]

Originally posted by hexagonian

...................One's I think need full testing are:

- Request something, offer gold.
- Offer gold, request somthing.
- Offer something, request gold.
- Request gold, offer something.
- With an embassy, without an embassy.
- With a treaty (whichever), without a treaty.

Maybe we can enlist the help of players to do this?

So this is could be a big hole..not a bug.
I wondered why nobody realized before.....but now I know it's very difficult to have good relationships...and whenever you have an embassy, AI often agrees nothing!
So this test could takes long time..........

QUOTE] Originally posted by hexagonian ....................
Currently I'm not happy with the changes in the Strategies when playing with Barbarians....... [/QUOTE]

With 1.34a I'm able to play an hard level.
With 1.34b I'm playing medium level.

Anyway this mode is fantastic.
It isn't a construction set at all.
Other impressions later.......................

[Adriano]

I really hate loosing war elephants when I change goverment.

Isn't should be better to loose the possibility to build special unit but to keep those already built?

What do you think about it?

[Lou Wigman]

Here is some feedback on 1.34b based on two games at very hard level, 12 civs, gigantic map, played through to about 500 AD.

Anomaly?
The first was a disaster. I have played many CRADLE games and what happened here has never ocurred before. I can only hope it is an aberration. Whilst reseaching 'Dark Ages' at around 100 AD my neighbour declared war and invaded with machinegunners, artillery and cavalry. I survived with my legions and composite archers for a few hundred years but clearly I was a dead duck. Nasty.

Now for something more substantial.

Latifundia
I have discussed this in an earlier thread. Here we go again. Strategy games are in part about making choices. As far as tile improvements are concerned there are three to worry about. Food, Commerce and Production. Ideally the player should be forced to choose between them. You want food? Good, but then you can't have production or commerce. Latifundia gives both food and commerce and instantly makes all other tile improvements obsolete. There is simply no reason to build anything else, advanced farms included. IMHO this diminishes the game. I really don't like the idea of having all my cities surrounded by Latifundia and nothing else. I much prefer a diversity of tile improvements to try and juggle the three parameters for optimum effect. Here are some suggestions
* Reduce the potency of Latifundia by reducing food impact.
* Have it later in the tech tree.
* Don't allow it in hills, forest or swamps.
* Reduce food overall so that the player MUST build farms to make cities grow.

Gold trade good
This is impossible to see. I only realised I had it when it showed up in the trade screen. Perhaps it should be changed to a 'gold bar' image.

Research and buildings
In earlier incarnations of CRADLE scientists became available with the philosophy advance. At this point I started to furiously use specialists to try and keep up with the AI in science. In a typical size 30 'science' city I would have 10 specialists. The effects of this were dramatic. The growth of the city became negligible. Gold generated was low or negative and there was almost no production. The effect of the current situation is that I have lots of gold, my cities are growing furiously and my most advanced cities are almost permanently on 'infrastructure.' The tech tree around 0 AD is particularly badly affected since there are many military projects which take a long time to research and don't lead to new structures which can be built. While researching 'Dark Ages' about 15 of my 30 cities were doing nothing and had been for some time. The rest were rapidly running out of things to build as well.
Is this good or bad? Its certainly different. My gut feeling is that the game has become unbalanced.

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Lou Wigman
Anomaly?
The first was a disaster. I have played many CRADLE games and what happened here has never ocurred before. I can only hope it is an aberration. Whilst reseaching 'Dark Ages' at around 100 AD my neighbour declared war and invaded with machinegunners, artillery and cavalry. I survived with my legions and composite archers for a few hundred years but clearly I was a dead duck. Nasty.

From what i've seen I think this is because when a new Civ comes into the game(after one has been killed off i think), as it only starts with one city it gets a certain boost which i've seen includes extra tech above the level of the highest tech level civ. So this may explain that.

Gold trade good
This is impossible to see. I only realised I had it when it showed up in the trade screen. Perhaps it should be changed to a 'gold bar' image.

Good point, it is difficult to see.

The effect of the current situation is that I have lots of gold, my cities are growing furiously and my most advanced cities are almost permanently on 'infrastructure.'

I'm playing on medium level and at 800 A.D i do have masses of gold(but then i have set up a huge internal trade network - 400+ per turn) and PW available.I can pretty much bribe anyone i need to when using the diplomatic options. This is new for me as usually i'm more or less broke. Still i'm enjoying the game so far.

[hexagonian]

Sorry this is late, but I had to mull through this for possible solutions.

Originally posted by Lou Wigman
Here is some feedback on 1.34b based on two games at very hard level, 12 civs, gigantic map, played through to about 500 AD.

Anomaly?
The first was a disaster. I have played many CRADLE games and what happened here has never ocurred before. I can only hope it is an aberration. Whilst reseaching 'Dark Ages' at around 100 AD my neighbour declared war and invaded with machinegunners, artillery and cavalry. I survived with my legions and composite archers for a few hundred years but clearly I was a dead duck. Nasty.

I think that this issue shows up more on the larger maps, as an AI may have no resistance for a long time and is able to grow.

I'm assuming that this is a civ that has a lot of cities, probably close to the cap as opposed to a splinter civ. I had dropped down the bonus from 5 per pop to 2 per pop in 1.34b, but I may have to make this more drastic, even to the point of eliminating this part of the SLIC code. I'm still somewhat confused as to why there is such a drastic gap from 1.31 to 1.34a-b, as this code was part of 1.31 and was never reported. I had not changed the bonuses in DiffDB.txt either in all the post-1.3 setups

Still, there are other ways to cut down the gap, which I may need to do. I need more reports from other players about this issue too.

If it is a splinter civ, then I will have to make adjustments elsewhere.

Originally posted by Lou Wigman
Latifundia
I have discussed this in an earlier thread. Here we go again. Strategy games are in part about making choices. As far as tile improvements are concerned there are three to worry about. Food, Commerce and Production. Ideally the player should be forced to choose between them. You want food? Good, but then you can't have production or commerce. Latifundia gives both food and commerce and instantly makes all other tile improvements obsolete. There is simply no reason to build anything else, advanced farms included. IMHO this diminishes the game. I really don't like the idea of having all my cities surrounded by Latifundia and nothing else. I much prefer a diversity of tile improvements to try and juggle the three parameters for optimum effect. Here are some suggestions
* Reduce the potency of Latifundia by reducing food impact.
* Have it later in the tech tree.
* Don't allow it in hills, forest or swamps.
* Reduce food overall so that the player MUST build farms to make cities grow.

I will eliminate the food bonus from Latifundia (historically, they were Roman collective slave farms/ranches owned by Roman senators that generated great wealth) so the principle was correct (food/gold). This will boost the importance of Trading Posts, as they already offer 5 Gold/5 Food and allow for more decision-making

Don't know if the AI will build them now, as the AI does focus on food growth above anything else. Can you make the change in your file, and playtest it? That would help...

Originally posted by Lou Wigman
Gold trade good
This is impossible to see. I only realised I had it when it showed up in the trade screen. Perhaps it should be changed to a 'gold bar' image.

...A part of GoodMod - Martin will have to address.

Originally posted by Lou Wigman
Research and buildings
In earlier incarnations of CRADLE scientists became available with the philosophy advance. At this point I started to furiously use specialists to try and keep up with the AI in science. In a typical size 30 'science' city I would have 10 specialists. The effects of this were dramatic. The growth of the city became negligible. Gold generated was low or negative and there was almost no production. The effect of the current situation is that I have lots of gold, my cities are growing furiously and my most advanced cities are almost permanently on 'infrastructure.' The tech tree around 0 AD is particularly badly affected since there are many military projects which take a long time to research and don't lead to new structures which can be built. While researching 'Dark Ages' about 15 of my 30 cities were doing nothing and had been for some time. The rest were rapidly running out of things to build as well.
Is this good or bad? Its certainly different. My gut feeling is that the game has become unbalanced.

Check this thread for the discussion on specialists and the reason behind the switch The main reason for the switch was to prevent scientists from cutting the gap so quickly, and to shut down an exploit where players allowed their slaving cities to revolt, then they would recapture them and then using the freed population as scientists. (something that you cannot do with slaves)

Ideally though, the gap between AI and human players is still the main concern. I'd like to reduce that gap.

As for cities having nothing to do, I find that I always need military, so cranking out units does serve a valuable purpose.

[Amesjustin]

Originally posted by hexagonian
I will eliminate the food bonus from Latifundia (historically, they were Roman collective slave farms/ranches owned by Roman senators that generated great wealth) so the principle was correct (food/gold). This will boost the importance of Trading Posts, as they already offer 5 Gold/5 Food and allow for more decision-making

Don't know if the AI will build them now, as the AI does focus on food growth above anything else. Can you make the change in your file, and playtest it? That would help...

How about just reducing the food benefit of latifundia to 2? That way you still get a minor bump, but nowhere near farms.

[primemover]

hexagonian... I was about to change your code to do something... but I thought I would ask this first.

During game play... I sometimes in my haste to get to my turn (and because there are so many unneeded messages), close out the message about unit updates.

Do you have any code that reissues the unit update option? I haven't seen any second chance to do this... so I was going to change your code to do this.

Before I do that though... I need a basic run-down of what your code does (or know how long I have to wait for the second chance).

primemover