Expanding my gaming horizons

[Chowlett]

Well, a Vel recommendation has got to be worth something. Which means I guess I ought to try CtP2 sometime. But, I shall seriously consider HoMM 3 then - perhaps after term finishes though...

[FrustratedPoet]

Rampart is the way to go, the Elves are archers par excellence and I always thought the centaurs were very respectable first tier units. The Tree-men are exceptionally durable, but they are too defensive for my tastes, I never liked the Unicorns either.

I'm also a big fan of the Castle town, the Crusaders in particular are wickedly strong and the Crossbowman are nearly as good as the elves. The Angels, on the other hand, although decent, are never as good as I imagine them to be.

A quick tip: one of the keys to victory is massing gigantic numbers of ranged units, especially when they have two attacks per round. There are many other things to consider too, of course, but if you mass Elves or Crossbows you won't regret it.

[Velociryx]

FP makes an excellent point re: ranged units (another reason I think that Dungeon proves to be very popular with newer players, since 3 of their seven creatures are effectively "ranged" units....gives you a TON of critters that can reach out and touch the baddies, even if none of them get more than a single shot per round).

So...here's an expansion of stuff to contemplate if you're gonna get the game:

If playing....

Dungeon:
Build up to Medusae ASAP (level 4, IIRC), and then take the time to upgrade the harpies before going any further. This'll give you your three ranged attackers (Harpy Hags, Beholders, and Medusa--tho you will wanna make a Medusa upgrade a high priority to give them extra ammo!), and armed with that, you should be able to munch just about anything that comes your way. Unlike other town types with relatively low-level shooters, Dungeon's guys can take a punch, so they can stand toe-to-toe (even the shooters), and still dish out the pain. Use your Trogs early to block opponents from getting to your shooters tho...gives you something to do with them--relatively useless unit on the whole, but you get LOTS, so use 'em!, and when you get Minatours, you're all set, cos they're your heavy hitting ground unit....not as good as some of the other races, but they work well in conjunction with your rampant shooters--shoot first, send the Minatours in to finish off what didn't die during the shooting spree.

Manticores are great, but a little HP shy for their level, so don't use them as bulldozers. They're good for guarding weaker, more vulnerable stacks, and then moving in to finish off a weakened group.

Black Dragons are...well....awesome. Immune to everything and hell-on-wheels for causing pain among your opponents.

Castle: Strongpoints are Crossbowmen (upgraded archers), Crusaders, and Cavaliers. The Angels are good, but not as good as you might think. Crusaders are 100% attack, but weak on defense, and with few HP's you'll lose them if you just charge in. Best to let your shooters inflict the early damage, and send them in for the kill (rather like Minotaurs, but with less HP's and an extra attack).

Monks are good, Zealots are better cos they don't mind being adjacent to the baddies, which means you can use them as swing units, on the front if needed there...still, you'll always find yourself wishing you had more than you do, so don't risk them often.

Tower: Weak level two unit (gargoyle), pathetic level one unit, but once you upgrade it, it rocks cos you get so many (individually those gremlins don't do much damage, but after a couple weeks when you have a hundred plus of the little buggers, they become a pretty nice wrecking crew....still way vulnerable tho, and easy to kill, so guard them carefully.

Titans rock....level seven shooting unit....can inflict pain clear across the board, and Nagas rule....expensive but DAYUM can that take (and deliver!) a punch! You NEED the haste spell with these guys tho, to get good use out of your Golems. Awesome fighters, but sloooooow!

Rampart:
One word. Elves.
Upgrade them ASAP!
Problem - Elves are vulnerable (half damage if a baddie is standing next to them).

Solution: Dendriods. Slow as Molassas in winter, but they pack a nice wallop, can take a BEATING, and have a KILLER special ability (whatever they hit gets rooted to the spot). So...park the Dendroids next to your elves and if anybody comes over to cause them trouble, let the 'roids beat on them. Root 'em to the spot, move the elves, problem solved!

Unicorns are coolio, mostly for their special ability (causes blindness), but a lot of critters are immune to it, which limits its usefulness (all the undeads, and trogs). Against a fair number of opponents tho, your unicorns will have your opponents continually wasting spells to unblind his own stuff. Handy!

Gold Dragons - *Almost* as good as Black Dragons. Not quite....but close.

Pegasus - fragile but fast and relatively hard hitting. Get in, get out before they can hurt you.

Dwarves....ahhhh heaven! Sturdy, durable, resistant to magic, pack a good punch, TAKE a good punch, and you get a TON of them (you get more dwarves--your lvl 2 guy--than some towns get lvl 1 critters. Horde them and SMASH stuff! Dwarves and Dendroids NEED haste tho, if you wanna go on the offense with them, but your level two Dwarves can put in a good showing against most other higher level ground pounders (golems, crusaders, minotaurs) and of course, they MUNCH level one units, and there's not much that can recover from the one-two punch delivered by dwarves and 'roids.

Stronghold: Good at every level. Goblins are weak (lvl1) but what they lack in punch and durability, they make up for in numbers. Orcs are decent shooters, and reasonably durable, Cyclops are awesome high level shooters, capable of dealing out tremendous amounts of hurt. Rocs/Thunderbirds are a tremendously good addition, and of course, you have the greatly feared Ancient Behemoth (special power is negation of the other guy's defensive rating, or most of it!, meaning more pain inflicted!). Their ogres are about the only unit on the board that can REALLY take a punch tho....everybody else suffers a lagging defense, meaning you have to come out of the gate swinging....let your attack falter and the other guy will really hurt you!

Swamprats: Good, but takes practice to use well. Most of their heroes kinna suck, so no joy there, but you have some NICE specials (hydras attack everything adjacent to them, gorgons have a groovy death gaze that's the bane of the other guys' level seven critters). Worth playing, but IMO harder to use well than some of the other town types. All their guys are pretty durable tho....they can definately take a punch!

Feels like I'm leaving some out, but....::shrug:: more later....

-=Vel=-

EDIT: Inferno....don't like 'em, but some folks swear by them. One groovy thing is you can get to your level 5-6(?) unit REALLY fast, and knock heads with them. I never cared for the town setting or the music tho....just not my thing...lol

Undead: Same as above. I don't personally like 'em, but they're pretty strong. My vote would have to go to their level one unit tho....skeletons are just MEAN....and you get so many of them! I mean, SILLY amounts of them. Gets to the point where you don't need anything BUT skeletons....fifteen thousand or so, and what the heck do you need other stuff for?

-V.

[Andemagne]

Straybow: HoMM3 has 2 xp's.

Chowlett: HoMM3 is definently worth it. but stay way from those Heroes Chronicles, they are horrible and a rib off.

Vel & FrustratedPoet: your opinions are needed as well down at the other games.

my opinion is that Castle is best hands down.

EDITED

[Velociryx]

Bah! Castle's good, but I think they're a long way from being the best hands down.

If money's no object, then Tower aces everything.

Castle's good, but their level 7 unit is too weak for them to take the prize, IMO. I think the reason that a lot of people gravitate to Castle is twfold....first, cos they're the "default" town type and humanocentric....it's easy to put yourself in the role of the gallant knights. Second, their units, taken as a whole, are incredibly well balanced (two shooters, one of which is close-quarters, a hellish good ground attacker (crusader), a good multi-use ground unit (cavalier), and a durable lvl 1 guy. But in many ways, their units *individually* work against each other, and this is what keeps them in balance with the other towns.

For the record, I don't consider *either* of my two favs as the best--tower, IMO...again, assuming you don't have a money shortage, but I play 'em cos they're just....amazing....

-=Vel=-

[Andemagne]

Vel: maybe we can sort things out sometime in a MP game.

[Velociryx]

Gremlin rush?

Nahhhh, having been on the receiving end of one, it's not something I ever wanna inflict on somebody else....sheesh....those lil' beasties are HARSH!

-=Vel=-

[fluffy]

Originally posted by Jmaster
I prefer strategies, preferably ones with epic storylines.

The original XCOM game certainly provided this - strategic planning with the added bonus of creepily atmospheric action sequences mopping up the aliens (a bit like SMAX, but with much more suspense!)...

[Velociryx]

More Homm3 notes for Chowlett:

Guns or Butter, the classic dilemma

And in HOMM3, a strong argument could be made either way! My preference though, is to go the butter route, and here's why:

Critters cost money....invariably they cost more money than your town makes, meaning that you will hit a point in-game where you simply cannot keep pace with your creature generators.

I like to delay this for as long as possible, so when I'm starting to develop my first town, I *always* go for the money enhancers first.

First week's run-down looks something like this (assumes you start with a tavern....if not, build it on day one, and push everything else back a day).

Day 1: Mage Guild, Level 1 - Let's you buy spell books for hired guns who may not HAVE spell books, and gives you some basic ammunition for your guys. If you don't get "magic arrow," "bless" or "haste" you'll prolly find your spells during the first week of limited value, and it becomes all the more important to seek out a hero with the ability to teach others spells (forget the name of the skill), and a hero with one of those spells. Hire him, pass the knowledge around, and you're cooking. But odds are overwhelmingly in your favor that you'll get at least one of those spells, and if you do, you're cooking with gas, magic-wise!

Day 2: Town Hall. Gives you mo' money per turn.

Day 3: Blacksmith (invariably a requirement for higher-level builds, and for some town types, it gives you an ammo card, which is kinna handy.

Day 4: Marketplace

Day 5: City Hall

Day 6: Level 1 critter generator

Day 7: Level 2 critter generator

Note: You may start with one of these improvements in place already, and if so, you're just a step ahead of the game....on day seven that should see you in position to either buy the lvl 3 critter gen, a booster, or citadel, depending on your preference and town type you're playing.

Week Two
The overriding goal is to get your capitol...expensive, but necessary, and to that end, you're gonna want citidel, castle, capitol as your day 1-3 builds.

After that, spend the rest of the week focusing on getting the baseline creature generators in place, and if you have a good "booster" --Castle, Rampart-- build it!

By the end of the second week, this should see you with at least your lvl 5 critters in place, a couple of selected upgrades, and money enough to buy everything you can produce, plus everything you can grab from creature generators. This is, IMO, far superior to having creatures sitting around unbought, waiting to get nixed by Pestilence or somesuch.

Contrast this with the guys who go pure critter-generation and don't pay attention to their economy. What you see is higher level creatures, yes, but a relatively "hollow" army. Their big guns are their ONLY guns because they lack the coin to field everything they can produce. In the early game, quantity IS quality, and hordes of low level guys backed up by smart spell casting can beat a "hollow" army 8 times in 10, and do it in style.

By focusing on the economy first, you put yourself in a cash-and-carry position, and are more able to take advantage of in-game opportunities as they arise (ie - with coin to spend, if you have a hero who has diplomacy, and you suddenly get an offer to pay a couple thousand gold to have those 14 Crusaders join you....)

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Survival tips if you go the butter route:

Obviously, if you bulk your economy up first, you're going to spend some time in a position of relative weakness during weeks 1-2, and growing steadily stronger from there to the end of the game, but that need not be of great concern. Here are some simple ways to bulk your forces up while you're kicking the economy into high gear:

1) Buy in Bulk. The tavern is your best friend during week one. Running out of guys? Buy more heroes. Many, if not most heroes come with 2500g or more worth of troops, making the hero himself "free," for all practical purposes, and you will want a few grunts and gophers anyway, so when you find an attractive hero, buy him up! Not only are you denying your opponent the opportunity to get those juicy heroes, but you're also dramatically increasing your week-one creature base.

2) The Diplomacy skill is your second best friend, and the coolio thing about diplomacy is that victory begets victory. Once you START getting stacks to join your cause, it's easier to continue getting them to join your cause (because it's based on your strength relative to the strength of the stack you're approaching. So....hire a fist-full of heroes, combine their forces, giving everything to your diplomatically-minded hero, and go hunting for a piddling level one stack. If he surrenders to you, add his forces to your own (always keeping one slot open for further surrenders), and approach a slightly larger stack. Even if you have to pay for them (sometimes they just plain surrender, sometimes they join for a price).

3) Critter generators are your third best friend, especially level one and two critter generators, cos you don't have to fight to make use of them, and in the case of the level ones, you don't even have to pay to recruit!

4) Spells are your fourth best friend. Smart use of magic (hasting the right stack of your guys, blinding the right opponent at the right time, slowing the right enemy stack, etc), will easily double (or more!) the overall power of your low-level army. Make sure you *always* have a clear path to a spell well or a city with a mage guild so you can replenish those spell points!

5) Let your grunts earn their keep! If you've gone the butter route, then you prolly have 3-4 heroes with one lonely guy under their command, who don't have a thing in the world to do...but of course, there's ALWAYS stuff to do! Keep them busy visiting critter generators, windmills, wheelhouses, and scouting new terrain! These guys are GREAT to follow behind your main attack force. Main attack force moves in, busts up some stack that was guarding a bunch of treasure chests, and he moves on, leaving collecting the booty to the grunts (always take gold if a grunt is collecting goodies from a chest...he's a grunt, and doesn't need experience....plus, the cash windfall will allow you to recruit at full-steam for a longer period of time). If there's a juicy magic item lying about, but it's out of the way or off the beaten path, then let the grunt go get it and transfer it to the main army....saves the main army moves.

6) Don't be shy about using "slow" troops offensively! Slow troops give you less movement points per turn, that's true, and as such, they should not be used offensively all the time, BUT! If you have a hero with mobility items (boots of speed) and/or the mobility special ability/skill, by all means, incorporate your slow movers! You'll have a stronger army overall, and still keep your "standard" rate of movement. Plus, your opponent is in for a nasty surprise, as your slow movers also tend to be quite durable and hard to kill. And with spells like teleport and haste, your slow movers really ain't all that slow!

Money is power in HOMM3, not troops. Troops are dime a dozen (check the tavern and you'll find an unlimited supply of troops....even level 1's and 2's can be lethal in quantity...ask fans of Necropolis! ). The faster you get that money bulked up, the more flexible your position is!

-=Vel=-

[FrustratedPoet]

Slow day at work, Chris?

[Andemagne]

have to disagree with you, Vel. that tavern strategy just don't work. first of all you hardly never get troops worth 2500gp with hero. second, you can only buy 2 heroes per week with troops. further ones come with only 1 1st level "critter". mo' later.

[Velociryx]

It was indeed! LOL....and true....with all the latest expansions/patch and whatnot, the Tavern-kill is toned down, but that's only one of the tricks you can use to keep yourself going strong during that first week, and if he's the right hero (Deemer, Solmyr, a few others), he's still a bargain even if he's only sporting one critter in his entourage (Deemer with one trog can capture a goodish many mines if they're not held by shooting troops). Even if the troops are "off type" they're still valuable in that first week, as they "count" toward your attack value vs. renegade stacks....group a hodge podge collection of lvl 1's and 2's together under a hero with Diplomacy, and you can "talk" your way into a good force with a bit of coin while you're building yourself up.

Starting hero and his troops, two additional heros and their troops, troops from whatever generators you find during the first week, and whatever you can diplo yourself into....that's a pretty good haul!

-=Vel=-

[Chowlett]

Ok, I now have it, along with Thiefs I and II for a total of £10 (£3.33 a game? Nice!). Also nice is the fact that it looks like - at a later date, probably - I'll be able to buy CtP2 as part of a 3 for £20 deal.

[Chowlett]

Is anyone running the game unde XP? I keep getting errors whenever I try to boot it. Possibly not coincidentally, it didn't recognise the version of DirectX on install, and so reckoned I wasn't above 6.1, despite the fact I'm atually running 8.

[MattyBoy]

Do you mean HOMM3?
I played it under Win 95, but suggest persevering with it. That game was high on my top 10 list and it's so easy to get into compared to Civ/SMAC.

[Chowlett]

Reinstalled it under 98, and played the tutorial. It seems well fun!

[Chowlett]

How annoying. Thief works under XP - except that the mission complete screens don't. Good thing I have a save game near the end of that missios - I can just reinstall under 98 and play the last few moment.

[Alinestra Covelia]

System Shock 2 also doesn't work under XP - a real loss!

[Chowlett]

Hmm, it also required me to reinstall Windows...

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Chowlett
Hmm, it also required me to reinstall Windows...

That's rather demanding of it.

[Chowlett]

I thought so.