The Chieftain Research Myth

nbarclay · November 4, 2002, 09:44

When new players post complaining about not being able to research, I've often seen people say, "Oh, that's because you're playing on such a low level." The truth is that the lowest levels are where research is easiest because cities can get a lot bigger before you start having to use the luxury slider. Balance your workers and cities correctly and you can do some really fantastic researching. (I just tried a quick Chieftain game to see how early I could win on a standard, pangea max-water map, and that drove home just how spactacularly easy science is on that level compared with my usual Monarch and Emperor games.)

Nathan

Nyl · November 4, 2002, 11:31

Yeah, those people must not be playing very well at all. I just finished my first PTW game, and I launched the SS before any of the AI's had even gotten to industrial. The Celts barely even got out of ancient... Er, really, I'm planning to move up to Warlord here any day now.

Chemical Ollie · November 4, 2002, 11:38

Why not try the latest AU map (Ultimate Power) on chieftain?

Nyl · November 4, 2002, 11:40

Will it work in PTW?

alexman · November 4, 2002, 11:50

This myth was somewhat justified prior to 1.29f because the player has to do most the research. On Chieftain, technologies used to cost the same as Regent for the human, but were twice as expensive for the AI.

But since 1.29f, Chieftain technologies cost half as much for the player, and are constant for all levels for the AI, resulting in a much faster Chieftain research pace than before.

vmxa1 · November 4, 2002, 13:56

My guess is the real reason they are not able to research, has to do with the way they managed their cities.

nbarclay · November 4, 2002, 14:23

I wasn't thinking about the change in approach to tech cost in 1.29f. That helps explain why the techs came so surprisingly quickly. Even so, in my best games, I drive the tech pace from the early medieval age on while the best the AIs can do is contribute a bit of gold by buying whatever tech I'm willing to sell and pick up optional techs I didn't bother with.

Of course if a new player comes along and reads about "beating techs out of the AIs" strategies and tries them on Chieftain, he's in for some very slow advancement.

.

Nathan

ducki · November 4, 2002, 15:12

Quote:

Originally posted by nbarclay

Of course if a new player comes along and reads about "beating techs out of the AIs" strategies and tries them on Chieftain, he's in for some very slow advancement.

.

Nathan

Even on Warlord and often on Regent, this is true.
Unless you have enough troops to take out enough of a neighbor to give you a new border with a new neighbor, you've shot your research cow in the head.

Once I've beaten 1 set of tech out of an AI, he's mostly useless from then on, at least for one Age. So you need lots of neighbors for "beat tech out of the AI" to work.

You also need a lot of self-control. Just because you can cripple one of your two neighbors completely doesn't mean you should. If you do, then someone has to take up the slack in research and cash generation or you will fall behind any group/pair of far-away civs that are both full-strength.

I realize that beyond Regent, you really have to militarize your strategy in order to be truly competitive, but a lot of the decisions that the more advanced players make when utilizing a more militant strategy don't get written into the strat guides - things like how many cities to take, which cities to take, keep cities or raze, keeping your "tech b****" productive enough to continue being your researcher, etc.

I still don't have the hang of the "early rush", though the Celts sure were fun to use for that, so my comments come from a particularly Regent-level Builder-style viewpoint.

Sure, I have the infrastructure to build an army big enough to squash my enemies, but half of the time that ends up slowing me down more than it helps(in comparison to far-away civ groups). I guess it's time to go reread some of the Must Read Threads.

DrFell · November 6, 2002, 06:21

I'm sure some people exaggerate how slow techs go at cheiftain. I've played space race games where I landed in the 15th century on monarch, and I research virtually all the techs myself (normally have a lead of over an age by modern times). Cheiftain gives you more content citizens, and a much weaker AI, so it should be even easier to dominate the tech tree and get modern age techs before everyone else is out of medieval times.

vmxa1 · November 6, 2002, 15:25

Yes that is true. I think what is being considered is that since you will get in the lead you will lose the slip stream affect of having a number of civs researcha tech before you. That may be offset by your being able to get larger sooner.

joncnunn · November 6, 2002, 18:33

Basically, on the Chieftain level, the human has to reserach everything himself by the time the ancient era ends if he's going to beat the historic times.

Prior to 1.29f, the human rate of resarch was identical on all levels. Even with a great economy it takes a lot longer to get to the modern era when your having to do all the work compared to when you have help of others to trade techs with, helping each other along.

1.29f swamped the how the human tech advantage was made over the AI in a way that doubled everybody's tech rate on the Chieftian level. It's probably the Warlord level in which tech proceeds the slowest now unles a similar change was made there.

Also don't forget that the minimum 4 turns to resarch anything (on non-Cheiftian level) only applies to humans.

It's routine for a Deity level AI to reserach in 3 turns when they have a large empire.

Multiple civs is a factor. Games with 16 players with 15 of them being AI on the Emperor level and especally the Diety level, which result in a very fast exit of the Ancient Era. (Human is better off seting science research to minimum 10% and just buying ealmost very tech during the entire ancient era.)

DaveMcW · November 6, 2002, 19:08

joncnunn, the AI research cost never changes. If you give an AI an empire of size 40 cities with all improvements, they will research at the same rate regardless of difficulty level. The difference between chieftain and diety is the AI's cost of building such large cities.

Theseus · November 7, 2002, 00:30

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
Also don't forget that the minimum 4 turns to resarch anything (on non-Cheiftian level) only applies to humans.

It's routine for a Deity level AI to reserach in 3 turns when they have a large empire.

Do we know this?

Alex · November 7, 2002, 09:49

I'm so advanced in tech when I play at Chieftain that I don't even bother trying to build the Great Library. Waste of time and resources.

Datajack Franit · November 8, 2002, 16:48

Could it be that you just suck at this game?

Arrian · November 8, 2002, 17:10

I believe the AI also has to deal with the 4 turn research cap, it's just that the AI will sometimes research different techs and trade amongst themselves.

Anyway, I assume that the change Firaxis made regarding the human and AI research rate (human bonus instead of AI penalty) has done a lot to fix the slow pace of the tech race on chieftain.

-Arrian