You call that an argument?

[Staszek]

MarkG, you're absolutely right.

So, as I cannot purchase this rare product in Europe right now, let me just thank you all people in US for voluntarily testing every new game so when it finally ships to Europe there is a decent patch available.

Firaxis, what about a label: TESTED ON AMERICANS?

[Alexander's Horse]

Oh yes I do

Would you like to see my letter of complaint?

[gsmoove23]

It is fun to listen to the product testers, after the betas that is. Seriously, this is a problem with all software development and I'm amazed that people are always so suprised. Firaxis isn't in it for your enjoyment folks, thats just a byproduct of successful marketing schemes They aren't bloodthirsty corporate nazis or cute and cuddly bespectacled idealistic programmers either.

Partly to stay within a healthy profit margin and partly because software programs are incredibly complex deals that CAN be altered by patches after release, software companies view the after release phase as a major stage of development so wait for the patch that will hopefully fix things and send a letter to your better business bureau/Australian Consumer and Competition Commission while posting raging flames on any forum you can. When the flames calm down I may buy my copy

Hows that for even-handed

[Chemical Ollie]

I think the "defect product needing patching" is not a big issue for anyone who finds his way to Apolyton or CF. Most of us could download the patch and get the game working if we have Internet access on our gaming computer. At least if we have a fast connection that can deal with 7-8 MB file downloads.

But what about all those millions of gamers who have their game computer offline? And even if they have Internet access, it is arrogant of the software publishers to expect that all consumers should find their way to the right site for the upgrade patch.

I am sure that a lot of people just buy the game, install it, find out that it's too buggy to play, dismiss it as a crappy game and put the CD away in the drawer forever. Only the most fanatic will bother to look for a patch. (That goes for a lot of other software too).

In my opinion we should really resist the arrogant software publishers by complaining in forums like this. I am sure some of them read this.

[gsmoove23]

Good point Olaf, I never think about it but a couple of years ago I would never have bothered with the internet patch or even contacting the company, just returned the game if I could. If you're not immersed in the software world there is this idea that you buy a product and it should work properly at the time of purchase, imagine. We are the defenders of those without a voice

[MarkG]

But what about all those millions of gamers who have their game computer offline?

you are discussing in a forum for a game whose main feature is multiplayer....

[Sarxis]

I don't have a problem with repetitive praise or complaints about PTW; its kinda a form of democratic vocalization really.

And if I were someone who was considering buying PTW, and came here, I would want to see what everyone had to say, not just a few people's opinions.

Isn't that what fansites are about? Talking about games? The good, the bad, and the crashy.

[Akka]

Civ3 IS strong code. And about your authors comment: I suggest you pick up any popular novel and actually go through, counting spelling and grammar mistakes. You'll find a LOT more than you expect. I once counted 23 spelling errors and quite a few odd grammatical structures in a ~400 page book. That's between 50,000 and 100,000 words. If you mutliply the 23:100,000 ratio to 15 million words (theoretical number for Civ3), you get about 3500 bugs. In reality, it's not reasonable to use a linear scale.

I would like to point out something at our dear friend Zurai arguing how impossible it is to make a product that is not filled with bug right from the start : what about the vast majority of console games ?
What about the PC games that were developped before 1994 ?

You will find that the vast majority has very few bugs.

The truth is extremely simple : as long as people are stupid enough to accept to buy unfinished and buggy product, companies WILL sell unfinished and buggy products.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Firaxis isn't in it for your enjoyment folks, thats just a byproduct of successful marketing schemes

If a company markets a product advertising features that it doesn't have or that don't work that is called misrepresentation and deceptive and misleading conduct. In Australia that is illegal - a very serious offence with million dollar fines.

Oh wouldn't it be great if one of these cowboy gaming companies finally got a big fine slapped on them - they might finally stop treating their consumers like fools and properly beta test products. Its the only way they'll learn.

And the only reason they've been able to get away with it so long is the kids who buy their games don't know their rights.

Imagine if Sony sold you a music CD where track 4 didn't play and then they announced they'd "patch" it later. You think they'd get away with that?

Stop being treated like chumps - flex your muscles as consumers - complain to your local corporate regulators and consumer watch dogs if you are unhappy with this product.

[Akka]

Originally posted by MarkG

Quote:

But what about all those millions of gamers who have their game computer offline?

you are discussing in a forum for a game whose main feature is multiplayer....

Perhaps I'm mistaken, Mark, but I though that the main point of PTW was to ADD multiplayer to a game that HAD NOT IT.

So, except if you consider that Civ3 did not need any patching right from the start, the argument of Olaf is still perfectly viable.

I would even go as far as accusing you of some fanboyism on this very message, as excusing unfinished products just because you can download patches seems somehow on the limit for me

[ThaddeusAlexander]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
what about the vast majority of console games ?

I've had my fair share of bugged console games and crashes... i don't know which ones you buy but ...
regardless console games are designed for one type of console. if there was one type of PC out there i'm sure it would be a bit easier to make a perfect game but there are countless combos of OSs and components out there...

The truth is extremely simple : as long as people are stupid enough to accept to buy unfinished and buggy product, companies WILL sell unfinished and buggy products.

But see, the patches are out there... I don't understand why you won't buy the unpatched version and have the extra fun for a while, and then when the patches come out you simply download them? Is that not the same as buying the product when it comes with all the patches fully installed ANYWAY??? The difference? You get the game early this way and you'll get that final patch long before the "Gold" of whatever version comes out.

IF you're gonna buy it anyway, then I don't understand why you shouldn't buy it NOW and just patch it up. I don't mind at all that Firaxis brings it out early even if I have to patch it, because I've been waiting too long to play against my friends in Civ3 and use some new units, not to mention the wonderful scenario editor.

If I had to wait a year for the perfect version then I think I'd go NUTZ!

I think we should look at the sunny side of all of this ... AT LEAST THEY ARE giving us patches.. if they were really as bad as some people make them out to be, then they'd throw us the box like the pack of wolves we are and say "Screw you all" and that would be tne end of it .... I read someone above saying how if you get good food you have the right to complain. but once you eat that food its done ... once you buy Civ3 PTW its not over so quickly ... they are fixing problems and thats what matters; what they ARE doing

I bought it and I love it and i've never had a crash and multiplayer with my friends is great.


Okay thats all for me ...

Cheers
~Thadalex

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
Perhaps I'm mistaken, Mark, but I though that the main point of PTW was to ADD multiplayer to a game that HAD NOT IT.

So, except if you consider that Civ3 did not need any patching right from the start, the argument of Olaf is still perfectly viable.

I would even go as far as accusing you of some fanboyism on this very message, as excusing unfinished products just because you can download patches seems somehow on the limit for me

perhaps you should consider my post a bit more before callying me a fanboy

when i say that the game's main feature is multiplayer, i mean that it's core target are people who DO have internet access(in the most usual cases, you need internet for multiplayer games)

so requesting from people who internet access and spend many hours online to download patch is not somthing big....

[Akka]

I've had my fair share of bugged console games and crashes... i don't know which ones you buy but ...
regardless console games are designed for one type of console. if there was one type of PC out there i'm sure it would be a bit easier to make a perfect game but there are countless combos of OSs and components out there...

That's precisely to avoid this pityful excuse that I talked also about the PC games prior to 1994.
There was even MORE diversity in the computer in this time (several DOS versions, OS/2, Win 3.11 and so on), there was countless sound cards and video cards that each one required a special tweak of the programming (Windows now handle most of it), but STILL, the games were not as buggy as they are now by far.
Why ?
Because Internet was not widely usable, and then it was not possible to sell unfinished products and patch them later.
Notice that there is still some games that happen to be released without too much bugs, so it's not like if it suddendly became impossible by the wish of God.

But why try to get rid of the bugs when you have a huge sheep herd that will buy anything that is thrown at them and dutyfully swallow anything while waiting for the patch ?

But see, the patches are out there... I don't understand why you won't buy the unpatched version and have the extra fun for a while, and then when the patches come out you simply download them? Is that not the same as buying the product when it comes with all the patches fully installed ANYWAY??? The difference? You get the game early this way and you'll get that final patch long before the "Gold" of whatever version comes out.

IF you're gonna buy it anyway, then I don't understand why you shouldn't buy it NOW and just patch it up. I don't mind at all that Firaxis brings it out early even if I have to patch it, because I've been waiting too long to play against my friends in Civ3 and use some new units, not to mention the wonderful scenario editor.

Oh, how God could not have I thought of it before !
Well, next time I'll buy a car, I don't want to wait it for being finished ! I'll go buy the engine and the wheels, then wait a bit for them to finish to build the seats and the bodywork, and once it's done I'll wait a little bit further to have the brakes and the windows...

"Well, Boss, you asked for my report about A, here it is. It lacks some pages here and here, I did not corrected the typos yet, perhaps that I mixed some parts with the report B, but all in all I think that you have most of it in the hands. Perhaps that I will finish it later, I mean if you're a good boy."

Were you REALLY serious when you asked me why I would wait to have a FINISHED product ?
It's called RESPECT FOR YOUR CONSUMERS. And even RESPECT in it's plain form. You don't sell something unfinished and buggy. Common sense.
Well, I can't believe I need to explain that.

And BTW, is this a joke about the "wonderful scenario editor" ? Are you kidding, or actually seriously putting "wonderful", "scenario" and "editor" in the same sentence ?
Great RULES editor, ok. But SCENARIO ? The one in Civ2 was MUCH better and it was SIX YEARS AGO !

If I had to wait a year for the perfect version then I think I'd go NUTZ!

Ii prefer to wait a bit and have a Finished product I can feel the developpers could take the time to polish and to put the finishing touches on, rather than to have it six months earlier and have a rushed piece of crap.

I think we should look at the sunny side of all of this ... AT LEAST THEY ARE giving us patches.. if they were really as bad as some people make them out to be, then they'd throw us the box like the pack of wolves we are and say "Screw you all" and that would be tne end of it .... I read someone above saying how if you get good food you have the right to complain. but once you eat that food its done ... once you buy Civ3 PTW its not over so quickly ... they are fixing problems and thats what matters; what they ARE doing

I bought it and I love it and i've never had a crash and multiplayer with my friends is great.

Well, thanks for proving my point about people ready to swallow up anything and then sending the message "don't bother to polish and finish your games, anyway I'll just buy it".

They are giving us patchs ?! WOW !
They're so great !
I mean, it's so kind of them, they are actually deigning to finish the product ! How lucky we are ! That's so heroic !

Excuse me if I consider it GRANTED that anything I buy will actually be FINISHED.
Excuse me if I consider patching should be a LAST RESORT and the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM if needed, proving that something went wrong in the first place, and not a GIFT. A gift is to give you something that was not granted. The additionnal units in the Total Annihilation patches were GIFTS, and we were thankfull about. FINISHING the game through patches (meaning that it was sold unfinished) does not deserve thanks, it's the very very least you can ask (the very least being that the product should already be finished when you buy it).

[Akka]

perhaps you should consider my post a bit more before callying me a fanboy

when i say that the game's main feature is multiplayer, i mean that it's core target are people who DO have internet access(in the most usual cases, you need internet for multiplayer games)

As you say, it's the usual case. But there is MANY people that will play multiplayer without Internet. There is still LAN
Ok, it's a minority, but still, for them it's "sorry man you're just f*ck, wait for the patch to be in the CD of your favorite mag, or wait for one your friend to DL it".

And anyway, the comments of Olaf were not only restrained to PTW, but to the habits that the software industry has got to sell unfinished game "because we can patch them later".

so requesting from people who internet access and spend many hours online to download patch is not somthing big....

I agree it's not something big. But it's something disrespectful and it's somethin that imply you released your game unfinished, which is even more disrecpectful.

[yin26]

Unless and until the public speaks with its wallet, nothing will change.

A) If you feel like the game is 'too buggy' for you: return it. I know in some countries this is hard to do. Exchange it, if you can. Put it on E-bay. Trade for another game with a friend.

But get the game off your computer. Check back in several months for the Gold Edition and see what the buzz is.

B) Remind yourself that some companies are more trustworthy than others, but also know that ANY game is going to have some degree of bugginess. Is that me making an excuse? No. But bugs can range from 'harmless' exploits (setting up unlimited farms in AoK, for example) to a feature in its entirety not working out of the box (Civ and MP, anybody?).

Firaxis, in my view, is certainly guilty of putting 'broken' features on the market. But they also, generally, get around to fixing them.

Conclusion: With a company like Firaxis, NEVER buy the original version unless you are happy to wait months for patches as you play around problems.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by MarkG

Quote:

But what about all those millions of gamers who have their game computer offline?

you are discussing in a forum for a game whose main feature is multiplayer....

LANs are not always connected to Internet, still you use them for multiplayer. And my arguments are not PtW specific, the discussion here just brought the issue to the surface.

And I'm sure many people buy PtW just to get the new tribes and units.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by yin26
[For the 'Told You So' files.]

Seasoned gamers, such as myself, decided to wait until the Gold Edition arrives. Don't get me wrong: I am thankful to all the people here who continue to pay to beta test PtW. It reminds me of uncooked cookie dough, really: Getting the cookie early tastes fantastic those first few bites ... until you realize the unfinished version is about to cause you to puke.

I'll wait 'til Civ3 is done cooking, thank you.

Yes, I am a far wiser (and richer) Yin ...

Damn it I like cookie dough better than the cookies!!

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Mahdimael


You're right in saying that it's impossible for code to be perfect from the get go. If you've ever worked in the software industry, though, you know that part of the design process is revision. You revise something until it works before you release it. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to happen these days for whatever reason.

Software is analagous to every product that's for sale in this way: A company or person creates a product that boasts certain features, and the person purchases that product due to those claims. The results are certainly more serious if your car doesn't have working brakes or whatever, but when a person buys a product, they expect (rightfully) that the features claimed will be there.



Rather than get in an argument over rocketry or heart surgery, I'll clarify my point to you: In situations where millions of dollars or lives are at stake, those involved ensure to the best of their ability that what they're trying to do will work. As stated before, software is much less important- however, does that give the company license to be more careless with it's product, and to release it without ensuring it works, especially with one of the fundamental features intact?



Loudest isn't the key- numerous is. If 100 or 1000 people complain that multiplayer in a game doesn't work, or that their car's clutch works improperly, then that should indicate a problem. When the things being complained about are key features of a product, that should indicate a serious problem.

You are so right. I'm not even a business major and I can ascertain the logic in your post. Free enterprise is about the consumer, the product, the vendor, and the relationships therein. Unfortunately the S/W industry is still in its infancy and has a lot of kinks to be worked out.

I'm not attempting to defend either side, because I think it reeks when an application is heinously buggy. But remember, the automobile industry has been around a heck of a lot longer than the S/W industry. And we've had a heck of a lot more venues in which to test the car than we have S/W as of 2002.

But you are absolutely valid in your assertion to compare S/W to any other product. Good God, in a way that's what OO programming does. It abstracts things to objects. Cars and applications are both "Products". These "Products" have certain features that they share in common. The comparison is completely valid. Yes, some applications (as are some other "Products") are mission critical. But they're all still "Products", created by the "Vendor", and consumed by the "Consumer".

I personally haven't bought PTW yet, because I want to play thru my current game first. It's not because of the issues ppl have raised on this site, because I find it hard to believe that any game could be as buggy as PoR 2.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Zurai
Actually, rocketry is pretty damn easy.

Erm, that's a very generalized statement. If you talked to my friend at the JPL, he would beg to differ.

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Imagine if Sony sold you a music CD where track 4 didn't play and then they announced they'd "patch" it later. You think they'd get away with that?

Well, how about the Celine Dion "CD"s (they legally can't be called CD because of what was done to them) that would lock up computers they are put in intentionally. What was done about them? Nothing, except a minor (very minor, who listens to her anyway?)consumer backlash. Nothing legal that I've heard of.

In the United States (I can't speak for other localities) accepting the EULA is your accepting of the legal terms of licensing. Infogrames didn't sell you anything. They granted you a license to run the game under the terms of the license. You even get to read it and get out of it. There is no legal case against them (in the USA or any country that acknowledges EULAs).


LICENSE AGREEMENT

*** IMPORTANT ***

This is a legal agreement between the end user ("You") and Infogrames Interactive, Inc., its parent, affiliates and subsidiaries (collectively "Infogrames Interactive"). This Agreement is part of a package (the "Package") that also includes, as applicable, executable files that you may download, a game cartridge or disc, or a CD-ROM (collectively referred to herein as the "Software") and certain written materials (the "Documentation"). Any patch, update, upgrade, modification or other enhancement provided by Infogrames Interactive with respect to the Software or the Documentation, or bonus game provided by Infogrames Interactive at no extra charge as part of the Package, shall be included within the meanings of those terms, for the purposes of this Agreement, except to the extent expressly provided below.

BY DOWNLOADING OR INSTALLING THE SOFTWARE, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU HAVE READ ALL OF THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT, UNDERSTAND THEM, AND AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THEM. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, IF YOU PURCHASED THE PACKAGE FROM AN AUTHORIZED RESELLER OF INFOGRAMES INTERACTIVE, THAT RESELLER IS NOT INFOGRAMES INTERACTIVE'S AGENT AND IS NOT AUTHORIZED TO MAKE ANY REPRESENTATIONS, CONDITIONS OR WARRANTIES, STATUTORY OR OTHERWISE, ON INFOGRAMES INTERACTIVE'S BEHALF NOR TO VARY ANY OF THE TERMS OR CONDITIONS OF THIS AGREEMENT.

If You do not agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not download or install the Software and promptly return the entire Package to the place You obtained it for a full refund. If You should have any difficulty in obtaining such refund, please contact Infogrames Interactive Technical Support at 425-951-7108. Failure to return the entire Package within 30 days of the purchase date shall be presumed to constitute acceptance of the terms and conditions of this Agreement.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil

I would like to point out something at our dear friend Zurai arguing how impossible it is to make a product that is not filled with bug right from the start : what about the vast majority of console games ?
What about the PC games that were developped before 1994 ?

You will find that the vast majority has very few bugs.

Console games are a completely different animal. They are developed to be highly platform-specific, and the SDKs that the developers use are provided by the console manufacturers. It's awfully hard to mess these up, although I have (albeit rarely) seen it happen.

[ChaotikVisions]

Very few bugs for games made before 1994? Not really, the amount of bugs determined if a game was succesful or not. The internet has improved gaming, not made it worse. Now games that have flaws or bugs have a chance to be fixed. Theres just more games coming out and more people playing so it seems like there is always a buggy release. And a text based game is going to naturally have quite a bit less bugs then a new 3d game. Mafia wasn't bugged, or none I noticed while playing and beating it. Battlefield 1942 has only 1 real bug i've found so far, and thats the one with falling. To the guy who said the internet play was messed up, are you on dialup?

Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast had no bugs I noticed, besides for some exploits people used in mp. Hitman 2, didn't notice any bugs in that one either. Warcraft 3 seems to be free mostly of bugs, besides for some balancing issues i've never noticed a real bug while playing. Theres more I can name, just wanted to pick a few of the more popular and recent ones.

Civilization 3: Play the World has a few bugs reguarding multiplay, kept getting a synch error with one guy while playing. Though oddly it only started after we had got to 2700BC in a game, then in the other games it would do it too. Played another game with someone else and had very little lag. Haven't gone back to multiplayer since though. Not because of the bugs I found, i'm sure i'd be able to find a good game if I looked. But just because I didn't get PtW for multiplayer, I got it for the new civs, improvements, units, and increased features(stack movement and the like).

Which I might also say, i've found no bugs in as of yet. I don't think PtW is totally broken or even half broken. Few bugs to be worked out reguarding how gamespy works, and offering an alternative to gamespy via direct IP. Doesn't suprise me, gamespy has always been a horrible service and it was Infrogrames(suprise suprise) who choose to put PtW on it.

[15:50] Jeff: what's the makeup of the Development team look like? # of programmers, artists, etc.?
[15:50] Trip: 3 programmers, 7 artists, 1 sound engineer, 1 producer.

3 programmers to code the expansion. Add to the fact that they're being rushed and then made to have it work with gamespy, I think they did pretty well. Also alot of the bugs with gamespy are the amount of people logging on and trying to play, at least according to Firaxis. You'd have to ask the beta testers if it worked well before this. If you're not happy with it just take your game back or don't buy it.

My whole problem with all the whiners is that they make no damn sense. They come on here and tell us why there lifes are shattered by having bought or heard that a game is buggy. That Firaxis should be sued for releasing a buggy game like this. That they'll personally persue lawsuits because of this. Get over the damn thing and quit telling us, go e-mail Firaxis or protest outside there offices or something. Anything but spam us with what amounts to just one more persons opinion of a game he doesn't like.

The majority of the people in these forums are going to like Civ3. And get annoyed when people come on spamming it. Feel free to offer ways to improve the game, but "omg!1 mulziplayer si brokan totaly!" isn't offering suggestions. For those that just insist on flaming the game when they don't play it or don't want to play, get a new hobby. Try basket weaving, I hear its very soothing. Go back to whatever it is you did before PtW ruined your life, or something.

And yeah, I guess i'm probably going to get called a fanboy. But considering i'm on a site devoted to Civilization that would apply to most of us. Of course, theres some that here just to complain, so they don't dare allow themselves to be grouped that way. But one must wonder why they stick around.

[Grumbold]

If you hate complaint posts, the best thing to do is ignore them. I've never seen a thread get to three pages just by people saying "this sucks" "yes it does" "I agree" "me too". If someone wants to have their own personal rant at the game, just let them get it off their chest. Firing back objections is just throwing petrol on the fire. Ones like "make your own game if you don't like this one" is like throwing in dynamite and shows a distinct lack of reasoning.

Games that need patching because of hard to find mistakes only discovered after release is one thing. Games released with major problems that are known about or should have been found by straightforward testing is just unacceptable. If publishers could be held liable for rushing out code the developer has told them is faulty the games industry would have a lot less of those sort of fiascos.

[ThaddeusAlexander]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
Oh, how God could not have I thought of it before !
Well, next time I'll buy a car, I don't want to wait it for being finished ! I'll go buy the engine and the wheels, then wait a bit for them to finish to build the seats and the bodywork, and once it's done I'll wait a little bit further to have the brakes and the windows...

THIS IS NOT A CAR!!! ITS A GAME!!! IT COSTS $50!!!

If this is your biggest worry in the world then I wish I had your life. I'm not a sheep that'll buy anything, I only have one game on my PC, and thats CIV3 and now the expansion because I like them.

You people are making such a big deal out of nothing...

Cheers
~Thadalex

[ThaddeusAlexander]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil
Ii prefer to wait a bit and have a Finished product I can feel the developpers could take the time to polish and to put the finishing touches on, rather than to have it six months earlier and have a rushed piece of crap.

A finished product that will be no better than what I'll have on my computer at that time.

Well, thanks for proving my point about people ready to swallow up anything and then sending the message "don't bother to polish and finish your games, anyway I'll just buy it".

Because I know they'll fix the problems...

They are giving us patchs ?! WOW !
They're so great !
I mean, it's so kind of them, they are actually deigning to finish the product ! How lucky we are ! That's so heroic !

Its not heroic ... boy you got something wedged somewhere in you don't you? ... its expected... just like you expect that in a while they'll have a "gold" or finished edition of the game.. once again, that will be NO BETTER THAN THIS VERSION at the time since, of course, this version will be patched up.

In my honest and sincere opinion, I think something is deeply troubling you and you should try to look deep within to find out what it is. Agression and anger don't solve anything my friend. Maybe you have anger towards something else in your life and you should sort that out first because evidently your anger is spilling out to other areas of your life.

HAHAHA



Cheers everyone...
~Thadalex

[MarkG]

in the technology backwards (compared to US and the most of Europe) Greece, the minister of edcuation announced today that 100% of highschools and 46% of elementary schools have internet access.
so please lets give the "not everyone has net access" argument a rest
dont force me to find the US-homes-with-net-access percentage...

[MarkG]

I've never seen a thread get to three pages just by people saying "this sucks" "yes it does" "I agree" "me too".

only because they are closed early enough

If someone wants to have their own personal rant at the game, just let them get it off their chest.

sorry, this isnt the right place to vent. that would be your open window...

[Grumbold]

Aha! The secret to successful ranting : get the moderator counter-posting you instead of locking you down

In the UK net access is still low, but that's a lot to do with the poor quality of our infrastructure. Give it another five years and that may have changed, especially if the price continues to fall.

[MarkG]

come on, you even have DSL in the UK! here, we're just dreaming it

[Zurai]

Originally posted by Akka le Vil

I would like to point out something at our dear friend Zurai arguing how impossible it is to make a product that is not filled with bug right from the start : what about the vast majority of console games ?
What about the PC games that were developped before 1994 ?

You will find that the vast majority has very few bugs.

The truth is extremely simple : as long as people are stupid enough to accept to buy unfinished and buggy product, companies WILL sell unfinished and buggy products.

Guess why? There aren't 10,000 possible hardware configurations you have to code for on consoles or ancient computers. Even with that, I've never played a game, ever, that didn't have bugs. Even Nethack has bugs.

The truth is a lot more complex than you seem capable of realizing. It is impossible to type 15 million words and not have any typos or grammatical errors. Suggesting that just because people are willing to accept less than perfect because perfect is impossible is the *reason* that perfect is impossible is just high stupidity.