Builders: What kind of defensive military do I need?

Rufus T. Firefly · November 5, 2002, 06:11

I am at heart a builder -- a perfectionist, in Civ2 terms. This was an easy thing to be in Civ2, thanks to the huge defensive bonus of city walls and the AI's inability to make war effectively; 2 state-of-the-art defenders behind a wall could hold a city easily until howitzers showed up -- and I was generally on AC before robotics ever got discovered.

Now, of course, that's all changed. The AI uses huge armies effectively, and cities aren't the strongholds they once were. So, fellow builders, how do you keep the AI at bay? How big is your defensive military?

(BTW, I know priority #1 should be to gain control of your continent, but in some games -- like my current one -- that just isn't possible.

)

DrFell · November 5, 2002, 06:35

I keep one or two units in my border cities (highly corrupt size 6 or less cities with walls etc in them). If anyone attacks these cities will delay them long enough for me to manufacture a military. My inner core is nearly always completely undefended.

Harovan · November 5, 2002, 06:41

Against the AI (not in MP!) 1 defender (or at most 2) per city suffices, but make sure, you have enough attackers (mobile ones, like horsemen, knights etc.) and bombardement units to push back an attack. Locate them in a way, that each city in danger (border cities) can be reached in a short time. It's hard to tell something about the number, as it depends on map size and the amount of treat, but generally at least 2 units per city should be ok and affordable (20 units for a 10 city empire, for instance).

After Steam power and laying down rails everywhere, the defenders gain mobility and maneuvering gets a lot easier (as the attacker can't use the roads and rails), but at this time the AI tends to build huge armies of infantries, so make sure you have enough artillery to weaken them before you attack.

Attack is the best defense. By this, I mean not necessarily to attack an enemy empire, but to attack an enemy army before it attacks you.

gsmoove23 · November 5, 2002, 07:00

Military? What military? I usually think I should build a military but there always seems to be another improvement to build instead. Forget pride and give in to those AI demands. The last laughs on them cause while they're weighed down by massive armies you're building lovely cathedrals and banks in most of your cities. Course I usually have problems with this philosophy because inevitably someone always sneak attacks. Last time the Aztecs overan 3 of my cities with Jaguar warriors in the modern era.

Laertes · November 5, 2002, 07:04

There are a few difficulties in Civ3:

- the AI tends to know which cities are undefended, and aims at those where it can easily reach them
- zones of control no longer the same, so mountain fortresses 2 squares out from your city dont help
- the random number generator that continues to produce surprising results (warriors beating vet pikemen on hills etc)
- the mass armies that the ai send out
- the attack & move combination for town defenders, whereby a defender who launches an attack always moves out of the town (and becomes vulnerable) if he wins, whereas in Civ 2 you could cancel the move order and leave him behind the walls.

You can bet on every attacker taking at least one hp, and probably two, off a defender, (before riflemen) as well as outright wins. Two defenders = 8 hit points, so they will lose to 4/5 attacking units usually

You certainly need you forward cities linked by road to the heartland. I find three defensive units to be the minimum, and they need to be state of the art, and have a barracks to repair for the next turn.

For example, one horseman will frequently defeat a vet spearman in a town. He will at least damage him by a couple of points. Three of four horsies will almost certainly knock out two spears. When the barbs or the AI turn up with 10-20 horses, you need 3 pikes.

Similiarly, a longbowman will often knock out a pike and will regularly inflict considerable damage.

vondrack · November 5, 2002, 12:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Against the AI (not in MP!) 1 defender (or at most 2) per city suffices, but make sure, you have enough attackers (mobile ones, like horsemen, knights etc.) and bombardement units to push back an attack.

Although I would probably agree from the general point of view, I will note here that I have lost a number of 1-defender cities to "surprise" AI attacks (those bastards know very well which cities of mine are lightly defended

...). The key point is whether you are able to reinforce once your enemy appears at the gates. If there is a road and another city nearby, one defender might do. But otherwise, I would put at least two defenders to lower the risk. My regular setup has two strongest defenders in every city (even in those deep in my territory - I consider their garrisons my "reserve" army) plus about 10-15 strongest attackers to take care of possible pillagers.

I am playing on Standard maps, YMMV if you play different map sizes.

Arrian · November 5, 2002, 12:29

It all depends on the border you must defend.

If you have a narrow border, with 1-2 cities to protect, you can stack up several defenders (3 or so) in each, throw in a bombard unit or two in each and then divide whatever mobile attack force you have between them.

If you have a long border, well, that's more problematic. In that case, I would hold the mobile attack force back a bit in a city that is more or less equidistant from your border towns, such that you can dispatch them to the city under attack quickly.

A major factor in this is culture, or more specifically, the effect your culture has on the border. If you can force the AI to move 3 tiles (tile, tile, city) prior to being able to hit you, you're relatively safe prior to Cavalry (or Riders, if dealing with China. In which case, why the hell is china still alive?!). If you have the workers to spare, you may want to set up a line of forrest that will eat up 2 movement points for any advancing AI units. I generally don't do it, but I could see it being useful in some situations.

Emptying the core to protect the border is fine, though I tend to keep coastal cities defended and have old swordsman units in some of them, just in case the AI gets frisky with a galley (I typically have no offensive navy until destroyers). That, or I shadow any AI ships with a knight/cavalry unit. They can keep up.

If I'm concerned that the AI will attack me, I will invest in walls for cities < 7. They aren't CivII walls, but they will help.

Finally, you may want to deliberately leave one city underdefended compared to the rest. The AI will probably... ok, definitely... hit that one. Set that one up such that it will take more than a 1-turn sneak attack to get there (plant some forest, or just pick a city will hills or mts they must cross to get to) and keep your attack units nearby.

-Arrian

ducki · November 5, 2002, 13:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
It all depends on the border you must defend.

-Arrian

It also depends a lot on what Difficulty setting.
At Regent, I'm able to build 6-8 cities before worrying about defenders (if I have Sedentary Barbs), at which point, if I'm industrious, it's easy to tell which cities will be good at cranking out units really fast.

I generally use 1 spearman/pikeman until it looks like war or late-Middle ages, at which point I might put 2 pikemen/musketmen in all border/coastal cities.

By Nationalism, I want 2 infantry in every city, mostly because my military is often much weaker than the AI, inviting attack.

If I'm really behind in the mid-late Ancient, I'll use upgraded regular Swordsmen in new cities until I get around to building a spearman.

HTH

badams52 · November 5, 2002, 16:01

"The best defense is a good offense," Mel, the cook on Alice

I usually have a two defenders per city on the outside and pleny of offensive units waiting to strike. The AI rarely seems to use stacked defense/offensive units to attack you with, so your best defense is to destroy the attacking units with your own.

I learned early on that not building offensive units is the mistake. I saw a large persian Immortals army overrun my two pikemen per city defense. The end of my glorious builder empire was at hand and a tough lesson learned. Build offensive units and keep them near the border cities to destory AI armies as they march to your cities.

Jawa Jocky · November 5, 2002, 16:28

The best defense is a good offense!

You don't need a lot of defensive units. I go with 2 per city and a few extras along the borders. I always have at least a medium size offense of current units to destroy attacking units.

What you really need to do is come over to the Dark Side with us other former builders.

Mine almost all of your tiles. Never raise the science rate past 10%. Pack those cities together around your cores. Build barracks, temples, marketplaces and a whole lot of military. Jump into battles early and often.

War is Good!!!

Random Passerby · November 5, 2002, 16:37

Answer: "A large one."

Typically I aim to have two defenders per city as soon as possible, with an extra defender + defensive artillery unit on any city within striking distance of a major threat. Keeping interior cities garrisonned in peacetime stops your empire from looking like too tempting a target and forms a very easily managed pool that you can readily draw on in wartime (very readily, once you get railroads). You'll want offensive units too, of course, and however much artillery you can muster--catapults and cannons won't do much against fortified defenders in cities, but they work fine for pounding units in the open. If you have proper amounts of defensive units + artillery positioned where you can bring it to bear in times, you'll have practically no losses in your offensive units.

joncnunn · November 5, 2002, 16:47

In decreasing order of importance:

1. Level of difficulty. (At Emperor & especially Deity AI starts with extra military units)

2. Your neighboring Civs agressive stat. (The more agressive the AI is the more units you need yourself.)

3. Width of the fronts. (Narrower front -> More units per city on them)

4. What Civ are you playing as?

Actually, the Civ III AI has no clue about how to handle an army of units effectively. It will let attack units get widely seperated from defense units.

What it does know is how many military units you have in each city on their version of the World Map. Yes, they see which cities you have that have no defensive units, so use that fact against them by picking a designated city or two to leave empty to lure the AI towards them while your main force sweeps it and takes out the AI cites behind them.

If playing a pure builder civ, your going to have to give in to demands, but you still need enough defensive units on your border cities to keep the peace. Never disband a stone age unit even if it can't be upgraded because there is no military unit so obsolete that it weakens your military strength in the AIs opinion.

Theseus · November 5, 2002, 19:33

ALL OF YOU:

STOP putting in 2 defenders per city!! If you are in Republic or Democracy, you don't need ANY in the heartland.

Civ2 habits die hard.

DrFell · November 5, 2002, 20:13

I agree totally. Sticking defenders in cities which'll never get attacked is such a waste.

ducki · November 5, 2002, 20:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
ALL OF YOU:

STOP putting in 2 defenders per city!! If you are in Republic or Democracy, you don't need ANY in the heartland.

Civ2 habits die hard.

Depends on WHEN this is, no?

If your entire "core" is your whole empire, yeah, 2 per.
Which is the case early on.

Once you do have cities that are 1 or 2 levels inside your border, sure, skip the units, that's what Railroads are for.

Early on, though, my "empire" is usually small enough that any city is a potential target.

And I never played Civ2. I just never end up disbanding/moving my old units. Laziness.

vmxa1 · November 5, 2002, 20:50

Ducki, Thesues was talking about once you are Republic or Dem. At that time, your core cities are not on the front lines. People remember that the military police effect under despotism and carry it forward (and yes get lazy as well). This is well before RR are up. It is an old civ2 habit that many have (I have to remind myself at times).

ducki · November 5, 2002, 21:13

Doh, I missed the Dem/Rep connection.
My bad.

Random Passerby · November 6, 2002, 03:16

That's all well and good, but I'd be willing to wager that the AI looks at a bunch of juicy core cities that have no defenders in them and sees nothing but a big fat bullseye. One scenario that I've seen whenever I let my expansion outpace my military production is when a neighboring civ is powerful but not particularly mad at me: Somewhere snug behind my borders is an undefended or underdefended city. A few odd offensive units (usually swordsmen, indicative of the time period this scenario tends to occur in) stroll across the border and start plodding off towards the vulnerable city. If I tell them to get out or declare war, they say "OK", declare war, and start whacking on whatever's convenient. If I leave them alone, they continue plodding, declare war while standing at the city gates, and promptly conquer it. If I prop up a few defenders strong enough to make the not-quite-secret invaders have second thoughts, they plod back over the border.

Now a lot of people will point at this and holler and scream "See? See? The AI is cheating! Unfair! Unfair!" and advocate using this against the AI, having your defenders play musical chairs to keep the invaders running around in circles. I know for a fact that I have more advantages than the AI ever will and consider it only sporting to allow them some advantages, and terribly unsporting to try and turn their advantages into advantages of your own; therefore, once it becomes clear what the enemy is doing in my territory, I just demand them to leave and let them declare war. Usually, of course, I simply try to avoid presenting targets that will goad the enemy into war in the first place, hence the garrisons.

vmxa1 · November 6, 2002, 04:54

Undefend core is meant for times when you have a decent buffer between you and the next civ. You will have units to fill the gap when/if they come for those cities. Some are even intending to invite the AI to attack those cities with the intention of showing up in the nick of time to whack them (some say that is an exploit).

Jawa Jocky · November 6, 2002, 10:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
ALL OF YOU:

STOP putting in 2 defenders per city!! If you are in Republic or Democracy, you don't need ANY in the heartland.

Civ2 habits die hard.

Forgot he was looking for building strats. I get forced back into Monarchy so much I just leave units in cities for the MP effect. I also like to have the additional defensive units there to raid when I'm quickly expanding and only producing offensive units.

DFHNY · November 6, 2002, 13:02

dear "builders" (who appear to be fond of this thread):
I was once a "builder" way back when CIV2 ruled the land, but now in CIV 3 PTW (playing emperor level, std map), I find that corruption is so powerful I can't really follow a "builder" strategy. Rather its build but at the same time wage war, more or less from day 1 (on and off of course). I am curious to know how you follow a building strategy with only 1 shield available out of say 10 at a newly founded city some distance from the capitol?

(Just to stay on topic, I keep 1 spearman in every single city and upgrade as often as I can. If AI attacks I put 2 or 3 archers nearby for counter attack, and 1 catapult in same border town if I have math. At higher level of difficulty you must have units garrisoned to stave off unhappiness/deter AI. The trick/problem is to massively expand while still making A. barracks and B. spearman.)

gsmoove23 · November 6, 2002, 13:48

In my case I'm just absent minded sometimes. I'm in Republic or Demo ASAP but I still keep at least one in those core cities. Sometimes one harmless enemy unit will come walking into the centre of my empire and I'll simply forget about him, the game makes it easy constantly hopping around from one unit to the next until suddenly the turns over. I've forgotten to do many an important action because of this. My fix for it is keeping 1 unit that I always press w for. Once there are no other units after him I try to think what I've forgotten. Doesn't always work

Besides its always useful to have nearby units for those pesky naval landings before RR.

As for border towns, when I'm really defending(usually after I've been sneak attacked and learned my lesson) I keep a layer 2 cities thick with about 4 or 5 on the border(this is usually in the later ages) and 2 or 3 in the 2nd layer.

DFHNY, I've just gotten into the habit of stopping my expansion when I'm happy with my core of cities, sometimes I pass up large plots of land and leave them for the AI if I don't think they'll be productive enough. After that I'll stay out of wars of conquest, only conquering cities that have a luxury or resource that I can attain. In the end I have a nice productive core and a number of small corruption ridden colonies peppered all over the place.

warmachine · November 6, 2002, 20:48

There are a number facets to my defense.
1. 2 defenders in borders cities and 1 or 2 in core cities. Better to have 2, even in core cities, as spare units can be pulled from safer fronts for reinforcements and counter-attack forces.
2. At least 1 best attacking unit per 2 cities and preferably fast ones. However, in the Ancient era, I prefer Swordsmen to Horsemen.
3. A good road and rail network. This is good for the economy and vital for defense.
4. All veteran, best technology force. These are supplied from the 1 in 3, high productivity cities that have Barracks. Upgrades are done as soon as practical.
5. Border garrisons. Guards ingress road connections and spots enemy movement.
6. High productivity. When a war starts, Barracks cities must start building as many reinforcments as soon as possible. If the enemy is determined, cities without Barracks may have to be converted so they can join the war effort.

Sinapus · November 7, 2002, 10:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
ALL OF YOU:

STOP putting in 2 defenders per city!! If you are in Republic or Democracy, you don't need ANY in the heartland.

Why? For one, 2-3 defenders per city can help keep a city from falling to surprise attacks. Two, you can always strip cities far away from the front (or fronts if you are really unlucky) and send them forward to try to stop an enemy advance.

(Oh, while you're doing this, you *have* put a few more offensive/defensive/bombard units into the production queues of your high productivity cities w/rally points set to near the current wave of invaders, right?)