How can a unit be beaten like this??? Defence = useless???

Vipermmx · November 6, 2002, 14:36

Okay I had 1 Mech Infantry in a Fortress on a mountain. This would have his defence pretty high. Then a single tank attacked and died without any HP loss off my tank. Then 2 turns later another tank(modern) attacks and my unit gets killed and he only gets to yellow????

How the hell does that happen???? It happen 3 times after that! There was no radar near and he was on plain type terrain!!

Why is it even defence units seem pathetic against some SUPER tanks that cant be stopped!

vondrack · November 6, 2002, 14:52

You do not mention what ranks the units involved were... but anyway, here is what Civulator says:

vet MA vs. vet MI -> 16,3%
eli MA vs. vet MI -> 24,5%
eli MA vs. eli MI ->13,5%

The percentage says what the probability of an enemy MA killing your MI defending a mountain fortress is. Even though the odds were definitely in your favour, it does not seem to me that getting results you got would be a reason to start a thread about it...

The Civ3 combat system is based upon PROBABILITY. There is nothing you can take for granted...

Alex · November 6, 2002, 15:25

Hey, your men fought bravely and even inflicted damage to the enemy! Be proud of them!

Pulsatingpecs · November 6, 2002, 15:48

Is it really based on probability? cause if u save, attack and then load and attack the same thing again (exact replication, no skipping or coming back to), you will see the exact same results. Probability would dictacte if i did the same move a number of times, i would see a win/loss pattern appear.... not so. and you can try this (it will prove a point).

I had an enemy ironclad on yellow sink my elite battleship on full HP. wtf? i reloaded and the exact same result, a couple more tries later i came to the conclusion that the battle is PRE-DETERMINED somehow. So i move some other units, and get back to my battleship later to have it sink the ironclad wihtout damage. SO for the cheaters out there, if you lose a unit, reload, skip the unit and move the other units before coming back to that unit. Probability? maybe, pre-determined definitely.

Theseus · November 6, 2002, 15:52

OMG.

asleepathewheel · November 6, 2002, 16:07

RTFM

The random seed is preserved at the beginning of each turn.

you can turn this off when selecting game parameters

This is to prevent reloaders

vondrack · November 6, 2002, 16:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Pulsatingpecs
Is it really based on probability? cause if u save, attack and then load and attack the same thing again (exact replication, no skipping or coming back to), you will see the exact same results. Probability would dictacte if i did the same move a number of times, i would see a win/loss pattern appear.... not so. and you can try this (it will prove a point).

You would have to uncheck the "Preserve Random Seed" option in the Player Setup Screen. The "seed" is a number that's used to initialize the random number generator used by the game. Saving it helps prevent cheating a bit (you get the same results if repeating everything in exactly the same way; no reloading will change the outcome of your battle...).

Computers are ultimately unable to generate truly random numbers. The best they can do is to generate numbers that look like if they were random. The random number generator (RNG) is a function that takes one number, does some weird things with it (like adding this, multiplying by that, shifting by... etc.), and spits out another number (a "new random number"). The "weird" process is actually tuned up in such a way that humans are unable to differentiate between truly random numbers and numbers generated by the computer RNG.

That said, if you initialize the RNG with a given number (that is the "seed" stored in the savegame file), you will always get the same "new" random number and thus, your battle will end up in just the same way. However, if you rearrange your actions so that a particular "random" number (which causes your BS to be sunk by an enemy destroyer) is used by some other random-based decision (like goody hut, e.g.), your BS vs. DS battle will proceed differently then.

If you uncheck the "Preserve Random Seed" option, you will be able to cheat by reloading just as in Civ2.

When I say the combat system is based on probability, I mean that when two units conduct a fight, there is a certain probability that one will win over the other (see the Civulator). If you conduct 10,000 battles of swordsmen vs. spearmen in the open grassland throughout your game, the swordsmen will win in 6643 cases plus minus something very small. The higher the number of battles, the closer you will get to the theoretically expected result (=the less important those few odd results that do not exactly fit the theory are).

EDIT: this applies to veteran swordsmen fighting veteran spearmen.

So, if your vet MI was defending the mountain fortress against an elite MA of your enemy, the odds were about 3:1 (75%) in its favour. If you repeated this battle 100 times, something like 75 of them would end up with the MA being killed (beware of the preserve random seed problem if you decide to check for yourself - turn it OFF to get the desired result).

Jon Shafer · November 6, 2002, 16:27

The only qualms I have with the battle engine is its 'streakiness'... You lose 3 HP then he loses 3 HP, then you lose 4 HP and then he loses 2 HP...

asleepathewheel · November 6, 2002, 16:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
The only qualms I have with the battle engine is its 'streakiness'... You lose 3 HP then he loses 3 HP, then you lose 4 HP and then he loses 2 HP...

And it seems like that the last hp is hard to take out. I knock something down to one, then I lose round after round.

statusperfect · November 6, 2002, 16:47

Quote:

Originally posted by asleepathewheel

And it seems like that the last hp is hard to take out. I knock something down to one, then I lose round after round.

That's a purely psychological effect. You get annoyed each time it happens and remember those times. You don't remember all of the times it doesnt happen.

Thue · November 6, 2002, 16:59

Freeciv has a similar mechanism, possible more refined than the one in civ 3. To see how this is done in code see the freeciv source.

There were some discussion at one point about how the random generator was 'streaky', and that was solved by tweaking it.

asleepathewheel · November 6, 2002, 16:59

Quote:

Originally posted by statusperfect

That's a purely psychological effect. You get annoyed each time it happens and remember those times. You don't remember all of the times it doesnt happen.

Is it purely pschological? I'm not sure. I will play attention to the next game I play to completion.

Craig P. · November 6, 2002, 17:47

Part and parcel of a good PRNG is getting occasional occurrences of apparently non-random behavior. Not streaky enough is equally as improbable as too streaky.

Crostoneman · November 7, 2002, 01:31

Cleopatra and her Egypt
Romans and their Rome
Napolean and his Waterloo
German and their West Front
German and their Stalingrad
Japan and their Midway
U.S.A. and their Siagon

How many times did they reload their games because their superior forces were defeated by a lone tank sqaud in the yellows?

Demerzel · November 7, 2002, 03:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Crostoneman
Cleopatra and her Egypt
Romans and their Rome
Napolean and his Waterloo
German and their West Front
German and their Stalingrad
Japan and their Midway
U.S.A. and their Siagon

How many times did they reload their games because their superior forces were defeated by a lone tank sqaud in the yellows?

hmm that would be real life. what people are talking about is a game. duh! reality is often unfair and unfun, a game is designed to be fun for the player. if a game is too unfair and unfun for that player then it has failed. if that someone wants to reload to keep it fun, then so be it. it's their time they are using for fun purposes, personally I think that telling someone else how to have fun kind of defeats the point...

YOU VIL PLAY THE GAME THIS WAY! YOU VIL HAVE FUN! YOU VIL NOT DO ZAT OR VOR YOU ZE PARTY IS OVER!

ouch the nazi game police is on the case.

back to the topic, I find that the streakiness factor probably is more psychological than real. it does annoy the bejeesus out of me when a "certain win" attack/defence either loses or even more annoyingly loses with no damage caused to the opposition. I suspect that I do ignore the results that happen in my favour in order to concentrate on the "bloody lucky computer" results.

just had the game crash out to desktop for me once and had to deal with all four neighbouring civs combining to keep me at war with at least two of them simultaneously for the last 100 turns or so. which has left me rushing troops to beat off the enemy when it "manages" to find the weak spot in my lines each time they go on the offensive. you'll forgive me when i call the game a (&*^*&%^*^%&

mrmitchell · November 7, 2002, 15:34

Quote:

Originally posted by statusperfect
That's a purely psychological effect.

This is a little OT (my post) but I usually have a chant to win battles. While they're fighting I yell "KILL [enemy unit]!" over and over. It works relatively well, but this is probably a psychological effect as well.

"KILL SPEARMAN! KILL SPEARMAN! KILL IT!"

It doesn't affect the game in any way but I like to think it does, haha.

Once an enemy spearman held back hordes, literal hordes, of my archers. It's a 50/50 or so win, right? And it did get down to where they were the last HP and then my HP meter fell like a lead weight...

Cyclotron · November 7, 2002, 16:04

Quote:

[SIZE=1]Once an enemy spearman held back hordes, literal hordes, of my archers. It's a 50/50 or so win, right? And it did get down to where they were the last HP and then my HP meter fell like a lead weight...

No. Even defending units on open ground (plains, etc.) get at least a 10% defense bonus. Your archer is slightly more likely to lose.

Redstar · November 7, 2002, 16:57

What i like is the odds really do even out over a repeated number of similiar occurances.

So, for example, if you attack with a modern tank (without any softening up)against infantry in a city over 7 (esp in 20+) you will always loose your first unit and the defender will usually take no damage. But this guarantees the next unit WILL be successful. So you can predict exactly what you will need each time if you ar ein a rush and can't afford to move in artillary or relocate air resources.

vondrack · November 7, 2002, 17:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Redstar
What i like is the odds really do even out over a repeated number of similiar occurances.

So, for example, if you attack with a modern tank (without any softening up)against infantry in a city over 7 (esp in 20+) you will always loose your first unit and the defender will usually take no damage. But this guarantees the next unit WILL be successful. So you can predict exactly what you will need each time if you ar ein a rush and can't afford to move in artillary or relocate air resources.

Sorry, Redstar, this is completely wrong (at least if you are speaking of Civ3). The random numbers even out only within large sets. You can lose twenty MAs to that infantry in a row... do NOT rely on this! ...or, get ready for a surprise...

In fact, for every single battle, there is a given probability of victory/defeat. It is the same every time and is NOT related in any way to previous or later battles. The more battles you fight, the closer the total number of actual victories/defeats will be to the theoretically expected number. But that's it... the actual order of victories and defeats is... well, yes... RANDOM. You NEVER know for sure what is coming...

vmxa1 · November 7, 2002, 18:33

Without a large sample of say 10,000,00, I would be reluctant to pin any convictions on the out come. A sample of a few dozen is meaningless. The standard deviation could account for it.

Alex · November 8, 2002, 06:58

If I win, good. If I lose, that's ok, it's part of the game. It's as simple as this.

bongo · November 8, 2002, 10:23

Even more OT but I have the feeling that fast-moving elite units actually have a LARGER cange of dying under an attack than vet units.

Maybe they are so determined to win that they will keep on fighting(and dying) when they are supposed to retreat?

Alex · November 8, 2002, 12:49

Quote:

Originally posted by bongo
Maybe they are so determined to win that they will keep on fighting(and dying) when they are supposed to retreat?

"retreat! retreat!"

crash! bang! pow!

"I'm an elite warrior! I'll never retreat! Bravery and honor are m..." sctrosh! (sound of an axe braking his neck in two parts)

tinyp3nis · November 8, 2002, 13:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Crostoneman
Cleopatra and her Egypt
Romans and their Rome
Napolean and his Waterloo
German and their West Front
German and their Stalingrad
Japan and their Midway
U.S.A. and their Siagon

How many times did they reload their games because their superior forces were defeated by a lone tank sqaud in the yellows?

They didn't reload because they could not. If they had had the chance, guess what they would have done?

Quote:

"KILL SPEARMAN! KILL SPEARMAN! KILL IT!"

LOL

tinyp3nis · November 8, 2002, 13:17

Quote:

If they had had the chance, guess what they would have done?

Is this anyway correct english?

Cyclotron · November 8, 2002, 16:27

Surprisingly, it is.