Comments on 2194 Days of War Gigamap

[sas]

This scenario is in my opinion one of the true Gems of PBEM scenarios in existence for Civ2. As far as I know there are currently 3 play tests going on, here at Apolyton, at Civfanatics and at Historic-Battles . I want everyone that have played the new version as PBEM and against the AI to place any comments you have regarding this scenario, so that we can help Pap making this scenario even better. I have placed this post at Civfanatics as well.

My comments will follow next;

[sas]

Disclaimer; I have very limited knowledge on the limitations and possibilities of the tools used to create scenarios, so i do not know if the suggestions i make is possible to implement.


First of all, this is a truly great scenario in terms of dedication from the maker, to the scale of the scenario itself.

Currently i’m playing the Germans at Civfanatics, and the US at Historic-Battles. But i have allso played against the AI just to check the capabilities of the nation i play. But it must be said that playing against the AI does not come close to show the potential this scenario have. Once i started a game as Germany, and the British AI sent all his Spitfires on suicide attacks against the German AA guns in France. This is not a challenge, its plain stupid. But i guess that is the limitations of the Civ2 AI that is to blame.


Germany; The initial setup of German forces is okay in my opinion. As Pap have allready mentioned, the attack value of the Ju-88 should be lowered some. But there is one BIG issue that needs looking into, and that is Germanys ability to land troops in Britain in round two and conquer the whole island. There are several ways to prevent this, and many suggestions have allready been proposed. Darius suggested in the Historic-Battles game that the German transports movement should be limited to 1 or 2. This would prevent the Germans from invading Britain in the manner shown in two games. But once London is taken, the Germans should get the tech to build the normal transport. This is essential for Germanys ability to fight the US later on.

I would also suggest to lower the movement rate of the Transport in general. Perhaps as low as 10-12.

Japan; Japan is perhaps a bit too strong in the beginning. The number of Japanese tanks is slightly too high. And the high movement of the Transports enables Japan to strike at targets absurdly far away in round two. Once again I think lowering the movement rate of the Transport would solve most of the problems. And it would give the allies more time to spot and sink the Japanese vessel. The Japanese fleet is as strong as it should be I think.

Soviet Union; The Red Army are about the right size i think. Pap have allready suggested that he’s considering adding another bunker in Moscow and Leningrad. I think basically that is a good idea, at least for Moscow. Other than that, I think the Red army is okay as it is.


US: No comment really. If the player have any idea what he’s doing, the US is the supreme ruler when it comes to Industrial output on round two. The number of units is about right I think. Pap have suggested to add more units in the Pacific isles, and that may be a good idea. But I don’t think it is essential.

The US was and is the late game player. And it is important to remember that when comparing the two sides. In my opinion to make a good game, the Axis should be stronger than Russia, Britain and China. But not so strong that once the US enters the war, the game is effectively decided allready.

China; About right, allot of infantry and little more.


Great Britain; In my opinion, this is the country that needs the more tweaking. It is simply too vulnerable to a German invasion in the beginning of the game. If the movement factor of the German transports where reduced to 1 or 2, I think that would fix most of the problems. But I would add some more infantry units in England. The number of AA guns is adequate I think. In Asia, Britain is facing much of the same problem, very mobile Japanese transports. In the Civfanatics game, Darius was able to capture both Bombay, Bangalore, Melbourne and Rockhampton in round two. I think that more than anything illustrates what I’m talking about. The number of British forces in Asia is about right, but I would consider adding some more infantry in India and Australia.


A huge scenario like this will allways be difficult to balance completely. And the skills of the players involved will allways make a big impact on the game, as it rightfully should. What it fundamentally comes down to it that this is a historic scenrtio, and in the spirit of that i suggests that one should try to match the historic facts as much as possible. When i say historic facts, i mean the strength and position of the countries forces and industry by 1942. Whtever comes after that is up to the players!

[Pap1723]

Thanks for starting this thread SAS.

First of all, this is a truly great scenario in terms of dedication from the maker, to the scale of the scenario itself.

Thanks a lot!

It seems that out of the 3 games currently being played, 2 are basically over, it is just a matter of finishing out the turns. At Civ Fanatics and Historic Battles, it looks like it will be a dominating victory by the Axis and Japan.

Of course, I happen to be on the opposite side in both of these games, so maybe it is my playing that has caused this?

The game here at Apolyton seems to be the best game so far, but that is because as the German player, Pavlov did not try to expand super quickly as SAS and Darius did in the other 2 games. Pavlov is currently fighting a bloody war with Darius, and has just taken over most of North Afrika. In all 3 games, Japan has been able to move very quickly throughout the Pacific, pretty much unmatched. Below are the ideas I have that will hopefully make all of these games better.

In advance, thanks for the ideas.

Pap

[Pavlov]

Originally posted by Pap1723

The game here at Apolyton seems to be the best game so far, but that is because as the German player, Pavlov did not try to expand super quickly as SAS and Darius did in the other 2 games. Pavlov is currently fighting a bloody war with Darius, and has just taken over most of North Afrika.

Pap

Which is Pap's polite way of saying that I blundered in the beginning.

I don't really have any ideas right now, just some praise. The regular 2194 is very cartoonish and easy for the axis. With the gigamap it becomes harder to make quick offensives, overall giving a more realistic game.

After all, if the players are all about equal the axis should lose.

[Pap1723]

Things that are already changed for the next version...

-Junkers Ju-88 attack is going to be lowered a little bit, some single player testing will determine how much.
-Malta is now a city, Narrsasuq(sp) AFB is no longer a city.
-Transports have their moves lowered to 10, along with all of the other naval units accordingly.
-There are AA Batteries scattered on the Nile River delta to dissuade landing a transport there, but that may be changed based on what happens with the Axis Transport
-I lowered the number of Japanese tanks

Things that need to be changed...

Axis
-Transport Problem
---This has been the biggest problem for all playing the scenario so far. It is too easy for Germany to move tons of units uncontested into North Africa, and at the same time into British cities. There have been 2 possible changes in the way this could be handled, one by Choke and one by Darius.
---Choke's idea was to only give the Axis 1 transport to start the game with, and to put it in Hamburg. The Germans would not have the ability to build any other transports until Gibraltar and Malta were taken over
---Darius' idea was to make a new Axis only transport. I'll call it a landing ship that only has a 1 or 2 movement. This will allow for there to be a channel dash if the Axis want to invade Britain and Malta will much more strategically important in Africa because of the slower moving transports and the British airstrikes that are possible. He also said that if London is taken over, then they should get the regualr transport so that they can invade America.
---I am leaning towards Darius' solution, but the only problem with that is we will need to get rid of 1 of the units. This is not that big of a deal though. Which unit should it be? Type XXI U-Boat, Essex Carrier, other ideas?

-Germany is too strong in North Afrika problem
---I think I am going to get rid of all of the German armor units with the exception of 1 PzKw IV Ausf. D. The rest of the German armor is going to be replaced with Light Tanks.

Japanese
-Too easy problem
---It seems like they may be a little too strong to start the scenario off. I have gotten rid of some of the transports that the Japanese start with already, but they can fight a war agaisnt the USA, Britain and China without much of a problem. I got rid of most of their tanks, and I am thinking I am going to add more units to the British and American cities in the Pacific. I am hoping that this will cause the Japanese player to divert his forces from China and the CCCP like in real life.

-Japan attacking Soviet Union
---In RL the Japanese were very scared of the Russian commnaders because of the Russo-Japanese war. I don't want it common for every scenario to have Japan fighting against Russia unless Russia initiates the fight. Do you think it is a good idea? One way is to make the Japanese and Soviets allied at the start of the war, and then through events, make them cancel the alliance. Any ideas?

And now the fun one...

Britain
-I am getting killed as Britain problem
---Some how I managed to overlook the fact that Britain would get killed in every game they played in. Other than the things mentioned above to help slow down the Axis player and the Japanese, I am going to add Air Defense Radar's and at least 1 Spitfire to every citiy in the British Isles for better defense. I mean the British did win the Battle for Britian, and I don't think the Germans would have won a second battle. Other than that, I think I am going to add a few more bombers to at least allow Britain to bomb German cities as was historically done.


Let me know what you guys think about all of these things, and what you think I can do to help these problems. Thanks again SAS.

Pap

[Choke]

I think it was Hitler's stupidity more than Britain's strength that let Britain survive.

[Pap1723]

Uh-oh Choke, we can't get into one of those arguments now!

Pap

[Choke]

It's not an arguement I was trying to start, I was just meaning that with 20/20 hindsight anyone playing Germany should beat Britain however I think Germany shouldn't have enough troops to fight Russia, Britain in North Africa AND invade Britain, that's unrealistic. Also Britain should be as strong as the Germans in North Africa, there aren't enough British troops there to start IMO.

[Pavlov]

True, the Afrika Korps is waay too strong. And thanks to those transports you can ship in at least 8 tanks from France.

Pap, in 1940, were there radar's in all areas of Britain? I can imagine they were plentiful in the south.

On Japan, I don't think there should be an alliance between USSR and Japan from the beginning. As you say, make it hard for Japan to attack both the USSR and everywhere else.

Choke, sorry for ignoring you on MSN, I was watching some TV and forgot to turn MSN off.

[Pap1723]

In 1941, I know for sure they were radars in the south, and they would pick up any German plane coming in from France. The problem is civ turns is taht you cannot scramble planes in southern cities to meet bombers before they get to the northern cities, so i think they need the radars too.

Technically, there really isn't enough untis to take on Russia and Britain, Russia is very far from beat in any game. I still think Russia is going to be able to come back and fight.

I do agree with the Afrika Korps being too strong, so we are fixing that.

Pap

[Pap1723]

OK, after classes today, I worked on everything we needed to change and I think I came up with what I like as the new version, Beta Version 0.6.

Let me know what you think...

RANDOM CHANGES
-All 1 tile islands with cities on them were changed to 2 tile islands b/c there are not good

units to amhibious attack with

ALL UNITS CHANGES
-Lowered Ju-88 Junkers attack from 40-32 b/c similar to B-25, but not as good
-Got rid of He.111 Bomber
-Incorporated He.177 Bomber into Ju-88 line
-Made new Landing Craft available to Germans
-Made Transport not able to be researched, will get if they take over London
-Will also get Aircraft Carrier tech if London is taken over
-Made Essex Carrier cheaper from 25-20
-Made Atomic Bomb more expensive from 50-60
-Made Defense Bunker more expensive from 35-50
-Moved all ships movepoints down 4

BRITISH CHANGES
-Took out all Fighters from British Isles and replaced them with Hurricane Mk. II's
-Kept all the Spitfire Mk. II's
-Added Air Defense Radar to all cities in British Isles
-Deleted the city of
-Made the city of Malta
-Put AA Batteries along the Egyptian coastline
-Deleted the railroad from Benghazi to Alexandria
-Put British Infantry in North Africa to simulate Monty's army
-Change some of the home cities for units
-Put A.A. Batteries in every city in the Pacific
-Put more units in Australia

AXIS CHANGES
-Made Casablanca and Algeirs much less defended b/c Allies just had to walk in during Torch
-Changed all German tanks in North Africa to Light Tanks with the exception of 1
-Put a field artillery instead of 105mm sIG in Tripoli
-Put a Fighter instead of Me 109 in Tripoli

JAPANESE CHANGES
-Deleted all Light Tanks and Motorized Infantry and replaced with Veteran Imperial Army b/c human player will have to build the tanks now
-Deleted a few extra transports

Pap

[Pap1723]

Link to the new version playtest...

2194 Gigamap Version 0.6 Test

I would still like to finish all of the other games or at least until they are unplayable.

Pap

[sas]

Initial comment is that i think these changes sounds good It will be fun to see how Britain will do under these new rules.

[tanelorn]

What about the Chinese?
Shouldn't they have upgrades to look forward to?
IMHO the generic bomber unit looks way too much German, the Ju88 figure is quite unique.
Nemo's Blenheim on the other hand looks like a soviet tupolev SB-2 as well.
There is that other unit that looks like an Ilyushin IL-4, A20 Havoc,a Hudson an avia bomber or a Baltimore.
So, I propose replacing the Bomber with one of these two, or:
Give the first as is at the start and switch it to a more powrfull version (the second) at 1943.
Early war light tanks had machineguns or up to 37mm (20,25,37mm) guns. Mid/ late war light tanks had 37,47,50,57mm guns. The Chafee had a short 75mm one. Shouldn't this be represented somehow?

On the British subject, the English classified their tanks as infantry and cruiser ones.All were undergunned till late in the war. Infantry tanks were slow but had very good armor (Matilda,Valentine,Churchil). Cruiser tanks (M10/11/13, Crusader) were fast but crappy. The Valentine was the most produced Britt tank in the war (it was the only Britt tank appreciated by Soviet tankers) and the Churchil was the most powerfull, till the Comet. Its armor was resilient even to Tigers. I'd say postpone/ forego the Firefly.

[Case]

Originally posted by tanelorn
the Churchil was the most powerfull, till the Comet. Its armor was resilient even to Tigers. I'd say postpone/ forego the Firefly.

While I haven't looked at the latest version of this fine scenario ( ), I think that Tenelorn has a good point. During the campaign in NW Europe, Britain deployed Fireflys by giving one to each platoon of Shermans. As a result, AFIAK, no large scale British units were ever equipped solely with Fireflys, though the Fireflys which were deployed were extreamly effective in augmenting the firepower of British armoured units.

Basically, even by D-Day Britain was disatisfied with the Sherman, and gave a very high priority to the introduction of the superior Cromwells, and later Comets. By the end of the war these tanks actually outnumbered the Shermans in service with the British army, and all the British Shermans in Europe were retired shortly after VE-Day.

On the other hand, Churchills are also difficult to simulate - British doctrine called for the use of these tanks primarily in an infantry support role (in which they were very sucessful). As a result, IMO there's a strong case for not including Churchills as seperate units, but representing them by augmenting the British infantry units statistics. This would also get around the common, but very inaccruate, representation of British infantry units as being somehow weaker then their American equivelants.

[tanelorn]

There were less than 600 Fireflies ever made, right? Compared with close to 9000 Valentines, that's minmal.

The Churchil could have low A/M, but high D and lots of hitpoints, to simulate its armor (better than the Tiger's) and infantry support (defence) role.

A good tank site (French) at:
http://users.swing.be/tanks/index.htm