custom faction discussion and comparison thread

korn469 · February 13, 2000, 02:23

hey i just felt like discussing custom factions...here are a few of the ones i have created in txt form

quote:

TECH, DocLoy, TALENT, 6, DRONE, 3, ROBUST, EFFIC, SOCIAL, ++SUPPORT, SOCIAL, +INDUSTRY, SOCIAL, -RESEARCH, SOCIAL, --EFFIC
Politics, Police State, POLICE
Economics, Planned, nil

quote:

TECH, Mobile, TECH, Physic, PENALTY, Democratic, PENALTY, Planned, POPULATION, 2, MORALE, 3, FANATIC, 0, MINDCONTROL, 0, RESEARCH, 1, UNIT, 11, UNIT, 12, SOCIAL, --GROWTH
Values, Power, MORALE
Values, Wealth, nil

quote:

TECH, Indust, ENERGY, 15, COMMERCE, 5, HURRY, 80, INTEREST, 4, SOCIAL, --PROBE
Values, Wealth, ECONOMY
Politics, Fundamentalist, nil

quote:

TECH, Biogen, TALENT, 3, PENALTY, Police State, PENALTY, Thought Control, SOCIAL, +RESEARCH, SOCIAL, +EFFIC, SOCIAL, -SUPPORT, SOCIAL, ---POLICE
Politics, Democratic, RESEARCH
Values, Power, nil

quote:

TECH, Psych, POPULATION, -3, PENALTY, Power, FACILITY, 6, SOCIAL, ++GROWTH, SOCIAL, ---MORALE
Economics, Planned, GROWTH
Economics, Free Market, nil

quote:

TECH, PlaNets, TECHCOST, 75, HURRY, 200, RESEARCH, 2, PENALTY, Democratic, IMPUNITY, Power, FACILITY, 23, SOCIAL, ++INDUSTRY, SOCIAL, ---ECONOMY
Economics, Planned, MORALE
Economics, Free Market, nil

korn469
[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited February 13, 2000).]

Patriqvium · February 13, 2000, 14:20

I have planned to create a "point" system to balance the custom factions people creates. It would work like the one in (for example) the Master of Orion II race editor, thus giving each advantage and disadvantage a cost
(negative for disadvantages). A working system like this would make a custom faction tournament possible by giving each player the same possibilities at the start.

korn469 · February 13, 2000, 15:29

the point system is a good idea, but how do you assign points for things such as interest and free starting units? also i don't feel that a -1 police is the same as a -1 industry do you have any ideas on how to work that out? i am in favor od the idea and i hope you can come up with a working system

so do you think my factions are balanced?

heardie · February 14, 2000, 02:55

Here is the facs from my mod

Empire, The Expanders, Empire, M, 1, Seteh Milnard, M, 1, 1, 0, 0, 1,
TECH, InfNet, SOCIAL, ++GROWTH, SOCIAL, -ECONOMY, SOCIAL, -POLICE, UNIT, 0, UNIT, 0, UNIT, 1, DRONE, 1, TALENT, 1, ENERGY, 1, MORALE, no, INTEREST, non
Politics, Police State, ECONOMY

Hand of Justice, The Justiceers, Justiceers, M, 1, Mikael Maltin, M, -1, 1, 0, 0, 1,
TECH, Biogen, SOCIAL, +POLICE, SOCIAL, -ECONOMY, SOCIAL, -INDUSTRY, UNIT, 1, PSI, 1, RESEARCH, 1, DRONE, 1, TALENT, 1, ENERGY, 1, MORALE, no, INTEREST, non, FANATIC, 0
Politics, Police State, INDUSTRY

The Pravakians, The Caretakers, Caretaker, M, 1, Oprotmra, M, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0,
TECH, Indust, SOCIAL, --POLICE, SOCIAL, +PLANET, FACILITY, 2, UNIT, 1, UNIT, 8, UNIT, 9, PSI, 1, RESEARCH, 1, DRONE, 1, TALENT, 1, ENERGY, 1
Economics, Green, POLICE

The Sisters of Jesus, The Followers, Followers, F, 2, Terrance Láde, F, -1, 0, 0, 0, 0,
TECH, Psych, SOCIAL, +ECONOMY, SOCIAL, --GROWTH, UNIT, 11, UNIT, 1, PSI, 1, RESEARCH, 1, DRONE, 1, TALENT, 1, ENERGY, 1, MORALE, no, INTEREST, non, MINDCONTROL, 0
Politics, Democratic, GROWTH

he Terraforming Confeder, The Terranformers, Terraformers, M, 1, Gregory Thomas, M, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0,
TECH, Ecology, SOCIAL, --PLANET, SOCIAL, +GROWTH, SOCIAL, -ECONOMY, UNIT, 1, UNIT, 1, PSI, 1, RESEARCH, 1, DRONE, 1, TALENT, 1, ENERGY, 1, INTEREST, non, TERRAFORM, 0
Economics, Free Market, PLANET

The Wall Street Traders, The Traders, Traders, F, 1, Sarah Richardon, F, 0, 1, 0, 0, 1,
TECH, Indust, SOCIAL, +PROBE, SOCIAL, --POLICE, SOCIAL, +ECONOMY, UNIT, 1, PSI, 1, RESEARCH, 1, DRONE, 1, TALENT, 4, ENERGY, 1, COMMERCE, 1, INTEREST, non, TERRAFORM, 0
Economics, Free Market, POLICE

U.S. Special Project, The Scientist, Special Projects, M, 1, Kreiger, M, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1,
TECH, InfNet, SOCIAL, ++RESEARCH, SOCIAL, --INDUSTRY, SOCIAL, -GROWTH, FACILITY, 8, UNIT, 1, RESEARCH, 1, DRONE, 1, TALENT, 1, ENERGY, 1, HURRY, 110, POPULATION, -2, INTEREST, non
Values, Knowledge, INDUSTRY

------------------
-Chiron Creators-
"http://members.xoom.com/acchiron"

korn469 · February 14, 2000, 03:22

heardie,

it looks like you used the faction editor or ACedit, and some of the text i'm not familar with so maybe we should just write factions in datalinks form from now on

here are my factions in datalinks form

quote:

The Centauri Empire

tech: Doctrine:Loyalty
talent for every six citizens
drone for every three citizens
+2 support
+1 industry
-1 research
-1 efficency
they have robust efficency
they cannot use planned economics

quote:

The Eugenics Outcasts

tech: doctrine:mobility applied physics
-2 growth
fanatic attack bonus
units immune to mind control
base unit morale is vetern
bases need hab complex to exceed size five
start with an extra unity rover and unity copter
each base gets one bonus research point a turn
suffers a penalty when using democratic or planned
cannot use wealth values

quote:

The Trade Alliance

tech: industrial base
-2 probe
starting energy 15
+5 commerce
hurry costs 80%
4% interest on energy reserves a turn
cannot use fundamentalist politics

quote:

The Utopians

tech: biogenetics
talent for every three citizens
+1 research
+1 efficency
-1 support
-3 police
penalty when using police state or though control
cannot use power values

quote:

The NeoTrotskists

tech: social psych
+2 growth
-3 morale
free rec commons in every base
bases can reach size 10
penalty for using power
cannot use Free market economics

quote:

The NeoSoviets

tech: planetary networks
+2 industry
-3 economy
free punishment spheres in every base
techcost 75% of normal
hurry cost 200% of normal
each base get 2 bonus points of research a turn
penalty for using democratic
impunity to using power
cannot use Free market economics

korn469
[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited February 14, 2000).]

Patriqvium · February 14, 2000, 10:27

The point system is nearly ready. I've made the costs for hurry costs, energy interests etc. usable so that each procent of energy interest costs one point, each -10% research cost costs 6 points etc. I'll post it here ASAP.

Patriqvium · February 14, 2000, 14:29

A prototype point system is now finished. It contains the supposed costs of SE effects. Notice that these are placed so that each of the original SMAC factions would be "balanced".

Name of SE effect
Cost per +1
Negative cost per -1

ECONOMY
8
-2

GROWTH
2 (add 1 per level, so that +2 would cost 3 etc.
-3

EFFIC
2
-1

RESEARCH
4
-2

POLICE
2
-2

MORALE
3,5
-2

SUPPORT
2
-2

PLANET
3
-2

INDUSTRY
5
-2

PROBE
2
-1,5

The system works like the one in the MOO2 custom race editor; each faction has 10 starting points. You just decrease the costs and add the negative costs to it. The result should be 0 or higher.

The list for all more "special" faction effects will be coming soon.

Ogie Oglethorpe · February 16, 2000, 08:08

Pat,

I loved MOO2 and the custom race builder. One suggestion allow choice of extra starting tech with level 1 techs being a cost of 4 and level 2 tech a cost of say 6 or 8.

What do you think?

heardie · February 17, 2000, 05:20

Korn469 do you play to release these as a mod
We also need more files at Chiron Creaotrs...

------------------
-Chiron Creators-
"http://members.xoom.com/acchiron"

TigToad · February 17, 2000, 17:11

Umm.. I think the trade alliance needs a little tweaking. Any faction with a +5 commerce bonus is never going to get a treaty/pact from a human player and too many pacts from a computer player. Too much 'bonus' energy. Also, 4% is a lot of compound interest per term.. you can go nuts on money, maybe make it 2%.

I'd recommend giving the trade alliance maybe half the comm frequencies in the game to start and a commerce bonus of +1. Since they have merchants 'everywhere' to make them more playable with/against human players. If they are merchants maybe make them agenda:wealth and a can't use of police state. (no one wants to trade in a heavily armed community).. and focus should be explore Pacifist. (war is bad for business?)

Just some thoughts.. tig

Helium Pond · February 17, 2000, 18:14

Partiqvium, have you checked your system against the in-game factions? Could they all be made within the system?

korn469 · February 17, 2000, 18:40

Tig,

i wanted the trade alliance to have more commerce than morgan who has 1 commerce...the trade allaince is another faction that needs some work. hmmm so after hearing your objections here what i am thinking

5 commerce: change it to 3 commerce and 3 commfrequenceies

fundamentalism...i firm about this...they are anti-fundy not anti police

besides i got a kewl datalink for them

-2 probe: everybody has a price

80% cost to hurry...unsure about this, thinking of some advantages i can them besides this one...maybe votes because with they can bride the electorate or whatever

+4% interest: how does 3% sound? i feel that 2% is a little weak

would a

3 commerce
3 comm frequency
3 interest
-2 probe
25 (10+15 bonus) energy
1.5 votes
faction be too weak?

korn469
[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited February 17, 2000).]

korn469 · February 18, 2000, 01:36

heardie,

no i wasn't planning on releasing these particular factions in a mod, i just wanted to create some factions that are new and fresh to play with with...right now i feel that they are decently balanced...though more play testing is needed, after i test them more and consider them finished you can put them up on your site if you like

i'm still actively messing around with the eugenics outcasts...have you ever seen star trek the original series that had khan in it? well they are not based on khan in particular but they they have lots of simularities

last night i decided that they couldn't use eudimonic and that wealth gave them a penalty instead of planned...i also gave them a psi combat bonus of 15% and was toying around with the idea of giving them psi gates in every base instead of the extra rover but haven't decided on it...the AI didn't use the psi gates, but in the hands of an intelligent player they could be too strong

korn469

Googlie · February 18, 2000, 03:22

heardie:

did you get a copy of Vel's seven splinter factions?

TigToad · February 18, 2000, 04:25

Hmm.. I think with those changes they are too powerful..not enough of a down side. They have a lot of bonuses, not quite enough penalties, IMO.. how about this..

+2 Commerce (still more than Morgan)
+2 Comm Frequencies
-2 Probe (I like that they can be bought)
+25% votes (they can buy people, too)
No Fundamentalism, that works.. tho in my mind, free trade can't happen under armed guards.

how about.. -2 morale (no money in military service). I'd recommend a police penalty but this faction should go free market by nature, and there is enough penalty to police there.

Agenda: Free Market
Goals: Discover, Pacifist

Just a few thoughts.. Tig

Patriqvium · February 18, 2000, 05:31

Helium Pond, I've checked the system. All factions are balanced w/ the system, even in SMAX, except the Cybernetic Consciousness (that -1 growth is something that needs to be
altered)

korn469 · February 18, 2000, 14:36

Tig,

how does this sound to you

+3 commerce (COMMERCE, 3)
+3 interest (INTEREST, 3)
+25% votes (VOTES, 1.25)
90% cost to hurry (hurry, 90,)
-2 probe
-1 morale
-1 planet
no fundamentalism

how close is that?

korn469

TigToad · February 18, 2000, 15:07

Korn.. i had a revelation. Why are you giving them a rush bonus? these are merchants, not engineers.. instead of a rush bonus (or penalty or whatever) you should give them a bonus to stockpile energy (I think you can do that)..maybe 25% just like the Energy Bank secret project.

I'm not sure if its a balanced faction or not, but its in character. I've been thinking about a faction along the same lines for a while.. if you want I'll help test them out a few games.

Tig

Jasonian · February 18, 2000, 15:26

Korn, I see you are giving out 3 coms with that faction. In my experiance, this ability simply does NOT work. Have you ever actually seen this function correctly?

I'll throw one of my factions into the mix:

The Jedi Council
Starting Tech: Jedi Ethics (lets you build strong but costly PSI units at begining of game.)
-1 Economy
-1 Research
One extra talent for every five citizens
Max population at 4 before Hab Complexes
All units and bases immune to mind control (same effect as +3 PROBE, but can never go away!)
20 PSI in offence and defence
Start with two Jedi Knights (those PSI units from the ethics tech)

Can anyone suggest ways to improve this, or is it fine as is. Remember, these guys are supposed to be peaceful but skilled researchers.

korn469 · February 18, 2000, 16:57

Tig,

Jasonian is right...you cannot give out comm frequencies that is why i droped it...also i only have SMAC and you cannot give a bonus to stockpiling energy in SMAC, interest is about the closest thing to it...i was giving them a hurry bonus because i was thinking of something like "90% cost to hurry because of cheap supply of parts and material" they are traders so they get the best deal on parts or whatever

but what did you think about the above stats

Jasonian

hmmm it sounds pretty good but the economy and and research penalties hurt them from being a good research faction...what SE choice can't they use? and how powerful are Jedi Knights? give me the stats on Jedi Knights, and the SE aversion and i'll see how good they are, but i don't think that they are too powerful

korn469

heardie · February 18, 2000, 18:09

quote:

Originally posted by Googlie on 02-18-2000 02:22 AM
heardie:

did you get a copy of Vel's seven splinter factions?

No but it sounds good...

------------------
-Chiron Creators-
"http://members.xoom.com/acchiron"

Jasonian · February 18, 2000, 18:37

More Jedi Knight stuff:

Agression: Passive
Interest in Growth? Yes
Interest in Tech? Yes
Interest in Infastructure? No
Interest in Power? No

Prefer Planned Economics
May not use Wealth Values

Feel free to suggest/delete abilities and interests to balance as you see fit, but try not to destroy the purpose of the faction (peaceful but disiplined researchers)

Jedi Knights are PSI attack/PSI defence infantry with 'force abilities' (such as Deep Radar and Cloaking Device) They get +20 attack/defence from the factions PSI bonus.
[This message has been edited by Jasonian (edited February 18, 2000).]

February 18, 2000, 19:08

Jasonian, I would get rid of the immunity to mind control because the Jedi were curruptible and did sometimes turn against the order. Possibly replace it with +2 probe instead.

TigToad · February 18, 2000, 21:00

Jasonian..that -1 energy, -1 research will keep people from ever playing them as a peaceful faction. Also with no interest in infrastructure and no interest in wars, they will suck as a computer faction with those penalties. However, with large bonus's to psi offense/defense they may very well get used as a momentum faction with green economics.

You might consider then removing the energy penalty at least, and probably the research one in favor of somethign else. Possibilities include -1 growth and -1 industry (few people can be jedi, etc).

I'd also change them to a discover/pacifist faction.

Without seeing the info on that tech, or where it falls in the tech tree its hard to judge its balance on your faction.

Tig

Stefu · February 19, 2000, 06:29

I'm also interested in Vel's seven splinet factions. Wher are they?

korn469 · February 19, 2000, 14:05

Jasonian

i agree with dinodoc and tig on this one

Starting Tech: Jedi Ethics
+2 probe
-1 growth
-1 industry
+20% PSI combat
One extra talent for every five citizens
Max population at 4 before Hab Complexes
Start with two Jedi Knights

korn469

korn469 · February 19, 2000, 15:37

ok jasonian created some more factions all of them based on starwars, however they just didn't feel right to me...so i am going to present his factions

The Galactic Empire

starting tech: empire ethics
+1 industry
+2 police
-1 support
-2 planet
+25 psi combat
110% hurry
free command centers when discovered
starting units: stormtroopers, AT-AT walker, Sith Lord
agenda: planned economics
aversion: democracy

The Rebel Alliance

starting tech: rebel ethics
Unit flags invisible
-1 industry
-1 research
85% cost to hurry
Gain techs possessed by three other factions they have inflitrated
snowspeeder, Rebel troopers
agenda: power
aversion: wealth

The Bountyhunters Guild

starting tech: freelance ethics
+2 morale
+20% offense
-2 police
-1 support
commerce 1
staring units: bounty hunter, infltrater
agenda: simple economics
aversion: planned

The Trade Federation

starting tech: federation ethics
+1 support
+1 economy
-2 morale
-1 growth
50 starting energy
All units gain Polymorphic Encryption when the tech is discovered
starting units: 2 droid armies, MTT
agenda: wealth
aversion: green

The Democracy of Naboo

starting tech: naboo ethics
+1 efficency
+1 planet
-1 industry
-1 police
Terraform up/down costs 1/2
starting units: gungan scouts, security volunteers
agenda: green
aversion: free market

The Galatic Republic

starting tech: republic ethics
+1 probe
-2 efficency
-2 support
2.5 times the votes
Free CHILDREN'S CRECHE with discovery of Ethical Calculus
1 commerce
starting units: standard transport, Republic guard
agenda: democratic
aversion: Fundamentalist

korn469
[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited February 19, 2000).]

Jasonian · February 19, 2000, 19:39

Oh, here are descriptions of the units they get:

AT-AT: 4-4-1 with Air superiority and deep radar
Stormtroopers: 4-3-1
Sith Lord: PSI-PSI-1 with deep radar and cloaking device
Rebel troopers: 4-2-1
Snowspeeder: 2-2-10 needlejet with deep radar
Bounty hunter: 6*-3-1
* = res attack
Infltrater: 0-2-2 probe team
Droid army: 2-0-1
MTT: 0-2-3 drop transport with 3 cargo
Gungan scounts: 1-1-1 scout patrol
Security Volunteers: 1-2-1 with high morale
Standard transport 0-3-3 medical trasport with 3 cargo
Republic guard: 1-3-1

Also avaiable, not no one starts with it:
Death Star: 99-8-6 Planetbuster gravship with carrier deck and 4 cargo (able to hold 4 other Planet Busters!)

korn469 · February 19, 2000, 21:01

ok here are my proposed changes based on my how i feel about each faction (yeah i have all the star wars movies a million times too)

The Galactic Empire

starting tech: empire ethics
+1 industry
+1 police
-1 morale
-1 planet
+20% offense
drone for every three citizens
robust efficiency
free ability: non-lethal methods
starting units: stormtroopers, AT-AT walker, Sith Lord
agenda: police state
aversion: democracy

The Rebel Alliance

starting tech: rebel ethics
Unit flags invisible
+1 morale
-2 support
techsteal
Gain techs possessed by four other factions they have infiltrated
*50% chance revolting bases will join them
free Flechette Defense System when tech is discovered (base defenses like on hoth)
snowspeeder, Rebel troopers
agenda: democratic
aversion: police state

*note: i'm unsure how revolt works since i don't have SMACX but the rebels should have this ability

The Bountyhunters Guild

get rid of this faction and replace it with Jabba the Hut's faction, whatever the name of his gangster organization was called

Jabba the Hut

starting tech: freelance ethics
-2 research
-20% cost to probe team actions (excel at bribing corrupt officials)
+2 commerce (smugglers)
All units get POLYMORPHIC ENCRYPTION when the tech is discovered (huts are immune to jedi mind tricks)
units are immune to negative morale modifiers (morale, 0 in faction.txt)
+1 energy per base (Interest, 0 in faction.txt) (income from illegal activities)
staring units: bounty hunter, infiltrator
agenda: wealth
aversion: planned

The Trade Federation

starting tech: federation ethics
+1 economy
-1 growth
-2 morale
*-2 industry (buy most of their goods)
*75% cost to hurry (competition amongst trading partners keep costs low)
1 commerce
50 starting energy
Max population at 5 before Hab Complexes
All units gain CLEAN REACTORS when the tech is discovered (droid armies)
starting units: 2 droid armies, MTT
agenda: free market?
aversion: green

*note: this is about the same as +1 bonus to industry

The Democracy of Naboo

starting tech: naboo ethics
+1 planet
+1 efficiency
-3 police
-20% on offense
1 talent per every six citizens (benefits of a free society)
+1 nutrients from fungus squares
+1 minerals from fungus squares
+1 energy from fungus squares
starting units: gungan scouts, security volunteers
agenda: green
aversion: power

The Galactic Republic

starting tech: republic ethics
+2 growth
-2 efficiency
3 drones made content per base (NODRONE, 3 in the faction.txt)
impunity democratic
Hurry cost 150% (bureaucratic inertia plagues the Republic)
-3% interest per turn (corruption exists on every level)
2 times the amount of votes
starting units: standard transport, Republic guard
agenda: democratic
aversion: Fundamentalist

The Jedi Council

Starting Tech: Jedi Ethics
+2 probe
-1 growth
-1 industry
+20% PSI combat
One extra talent for every five citizens
Max population at 4 before Hab Complexes
starting units: two Jedi Knights
agenda: knowledge
aversion: wealth

korn469
[This message has been edited by korn469 (edited February 20, 2000).]

Chowlett · February 20, 2000, 12:50

My only current custom faction I call the Family of Chiron, as follows:

+1 GROWTH
+1 MORALE
-2 PROBE
-1 RESEARCH

Starting tech Social Psych
Free Children's Creche on discovery of Ethical Calc

Extra Talent for Every 4 Citizens

Agenda - Democracy, GROWTH
Aversion - Thought Control

By my counting that's a point's score of 8. Thoughts? And Playtesters anyone?