MoO2 Tech Choices

[nato]

moomin suggested a thread about the hardest tech choices. I think that is a good idea because it might reveal some of the strategic thinking and outlook we have.

I have some free time right now, so here are the ones I see as tough choices:

(note: This got real long, so I put the conclusions in a seperate post after this. If you want, skip to the second post.)

Construction
----------------
80: Reinforced Hull vs Anti Missile Rockets: Reinforced is usually the choice, but with all the missiles in early warfare the rockets would be nice.

150: Automated Factories vs Missile Base: Actually not a hard choice, AF are must have that early, but early cheap planet defense would be nice too. Starbases are still too expensive at that point to make easily.

650: Battlestation vs Robo Mining Plant: Same story, the production boost is must have. But sometimes, if not warlord, I could really use the command point boost.

1500: Planet Construction vs Recyclotron: Production boost or more planets for more production? I guess the higher population your worlds, the better the recyclotron.

3500: Core Waste Dump vs Deep Core Mining: A tough one, both are great. If I get waste dump, I don't get atmospheric renewer at 1150 Chemistry, and vice versa.

6000: Advanced City Planning vs Star Fortress: Another tough one. More population = more power, but sometimes command points are so desperately needed.


Power
--------
3500: Energy Absorber vs High Energy Focus vs Megafluxers: Two good specials or more space. I usually go megafluxers, because space is the real limit in starship design.


Chemistry
------------
No hard ones for me here.


Sociology
-----------
Only one choice to even make here.


Computers
--------------
150: Research Lab vs Optronic Computer vs Dauntless: A clear choice, the research lab is must have and usually the first tech you get. But optronic and dauntless are both techs that could really have an effect on early warfare, with its low beam accuracy and heavy use of missiles. They are ones that hurt to pass up.

400: Neural Scanner vs Scout Lab: Again, neural scanner is a clear choice. But this early there may be still-tough monsters guarding great planets, and there is Orion to kill, so scout labs would have been nice (they are useless late game of course).

900: Holo Simulator vs Planetary Supercomputer vs Positronic Computer: A tough one. Supercomputer makes future tech easier to get. But morale can be huge, and since you probably passed up optronic you really need that positronic to switch to beam ships.

2750: Autolab vs Cybertronic vs Structual Analyzer: Another tough one. The analyzer is a great damage special. Autolab and cybertronic are the same story as last time. Generally if it looks like I'm gonna have smaller population, generalist worlds I get positronic and autolab. If I'm gonna have higher population, specialist worlds I get supercomputer and cybertronic.

4500: Galactic Cybernet vs Virtual Reality Network: Morale or research. Later game morale is better, but since it makes sense to research techs that will make future research easier first, I'm often here with plenty left to research.

6000: Achilles Targeting vs Molecular Computer vs Pleasure Dome: Two great combat techs or a big morale boost. I don't have any insight on this one, usually depends on the game I guess.


Biology
---------
80: Biospheres vs Hydroponic: I always go biospheres because population is power, and hydroponics will probably be unnecesary later on. However, early on hydroponic farms are nice to have.

400: Cloning Center vs Soil Enrichment: I usually get cloning center, but this early food is still a problem and soil enrichment would help. The more hydroponic and subterranean farms you use, the less important soil enrichment is.

1500: Subterranean Farms vs Weather Control System: Ok, not a hard choice, but one that depends on your food strategy, breadbasket world vs self suffciency. I think its best to go either biosphere + weather control (breadbasket) or hydroponic + subterranean (self sufficient).

2750: Heightened Intelligence vs Psionics: If you are a dictatorship, this is a real tough one. Another morale vs research choice like in the computer line.

7500: Evolutionary Mutation vs Gaia Transformation: Again not really a hard choice, but I always miss passing up Gaia.


Physics
---------
250: Battle Scanner vs Tachyon Communications vs Tachyon Scanner: A real tough one for me. Early on for beam combat you need that battle scanner. But command points are always needed and you'll miss it later. Even the scanner would be nice for more information / recon.

900: Neutron Blaster vs Neutron Scanner: Since I probably passed on the tachyon scanner, I really want the neutron one. But killing marines is great for capture ships.

1500: Jump Gate vs Sub-Space Communications: Very hard choice. Jump gates are so great for easy defense, but sub-space are the ever valuable command points and the ability to change destinations. You have to plan ahead what you are going to pick at the 15,000 level.

2000: Multi Phased Shields vs Phasors: Defense or offense? I usually get phasors. SP is great, and phasors are the best PD weapon, which gives them a little defensive value also.

6000: Hyper Space Communications vs Mauler Device vs Sensors: A real tough one. The usual command point problem, a killer weapon, or great recon / warning.

15000: Star Gate vs Stellar Converter vs Time Warp: Instant movement is huge, especially when you conquer something deep in enemy spacve. Converters and time warp are both powerful.


Fields
-------
900: Class III Shield vs Radiation Shield: The first worth while shield is important for all your ships. However, if you have a lot of radiated planets or even just one rich radiated planet the radiation shield is important. You have to choose between ship and planet shields 3 times.

2750: Class V Shield vs Gauss Cannon: Decent shields or upgrade your mass drivers? A hard choice if you like the mass driver line.

Thats all of the hard ones, as I see it. I think a lot could be learned from finding out what people consider hard or easy choices, and what is must have.

Sorry this got so long, I guess I'm a typer.

[nato]

Here are some conclusions:

There are some repeating tradeoff decisions. Sometimes they are interconnected through different fields. Here are the hard decision tradeoffs I see:

Construction
150: Production vs Other (Missile Base)
650: Production vs Command
1500: Production vs Population
6000: Population vs Command

Computers
150: Research vs Beams
900: Research vs Beams vs Morale
2750: Research vs Beams
4500: Research vs Morale
6000: Beams vs Morale

Biology
80: Food vs Population
400: Food vs Population
2750: Research vs Morale (Dicators only)
7500: Population vs Other (Evolution)

Physics
250: Command vs Beams
1500: Command vs Other (Jump Gates)
6000: Command vs Other (Mauler or Sensors)

Fields
900: Ship Shield vs Planet Shield
4500: Ship Shield vs Planet Shield
15000: Ship Shield vs Planet Shield

Also some techs are redundant and don't stack:
1. Beams under computers (ship computers)
2. Command under physics (communications)
3. Ship and planet shields under fields
4. Though its not listed above, also note core waste dumps vs pollution processor and atmospheric renewer

Hopefully this tradeoff chart gives a different way to look at the tough choices. Its important to make good decisions about balancing strengths or being specialized.

Thanks for reading.

[vmxa1]

I think most are obvious and you went with the only ones you could.
Sub Farms vs Weather - weather stations can not be put on some planets so farms is easy to pick.
Evolution vs Gaia - this is easy for me, take gaia as I do not need more picks at this stage, the game is in the bag.
I would never take atrifical planets over recycle as I only make planets if I am wanting to boost my score. I can steal it.
Advanced planning is clear choice over Fortress. You can do with out them as they will not save a planet late anyway. You will need a fleet to stop a large fleet.

[nato]

For sub farms vs weather station, I go weather station if I am using a farming planet (or two) to feed my empire, and I only build one there for a huge bonus.

I guess I usually don't do hyrdoponics or sub farms, because I don't think they are worth the upkeep cost. However, using the breadbasket strategy requires a large freighter fleet, so maybe it breaks even.

Maybe the best thing is one or two farmers on every planet to reduce freighter fleet size, and many farmers on fertile worlds to cover any food deficit.

For evolution vs gaia, you really might be right. I spend so much time agonizing over custom race picks, it always seemed awesome to get 4 extra points to me.

For artificial planets vs recyclotron, you are right. Now that I think about it, I usually get recyclotron, because I don't want more planets to manage. One small thing, if I have a fantastic colony leader, I'd like to get another planet for him to work his bonus on.

For advanced planning vs star fortress, again you are probably right. I just want to say, I don't want the fortress for defense, fleets are way to big then. I want them for more command points, to pay for the big fleets.

[moomin]

Hmm. I agree with some of the choices. The whole science/comp/morale building ladder is a tough customer - most of my wars start when I want to steal items I didn't get here...

I also agree with vmxa that other choices are rather clear-cut. Recyclotron, advanced city planning and gaia are obvious to me. I don't sweat over farms either, although I like getting the weather thingy for a nice native gaia. Biospheres over hydroponics, because the AIs will beg you to trade anything for their hydro while they refuse to trade biospheres until it's much too late. Cloning centers each time. Always battle scanner over tachyon - the battle scanner is essential well into the end-game. Sub-space every time too. And Star Gate.

[vmxa1]

Nato, my big concern about the concept of a farming planet is that blockades are common. If they blockade my farm planet, then what? Here is some of my thoughts, I will eventually try to test this:
at the start much of your work force is already commited to food and when subs farms come along they could free a lot of them. Blockades are most common just prior to that time, so it will be hard to service planets with short falls. In the mid game the AI likes to send a solos ship to blockage so you could benefit from increased farming. No soil improvements on hostile planets with no farming. Lots of factors and many dificult choices.

[Urban Ranger]

I think it is really silly that planets with starbases, etc. can be blockaded.

[vmxa1]

You have a point. I can live with, as it is not unreasonable to say that a fleet could interdict unescorted shipments. In Star generals you could escort ships that handled trade. It is very painful to be blockaded if no farming.

[Garth Vader]

I am surprised you have nothing for chemistry. That's one of the hardest for me.

Range, Armor, Pollution and Missiles.

Toughest choice for me is the level with microlite, nano dissamblers and zortrium.

All the tough choices in the other categories are easier. For example I would like missile base, but I NEED auto factories.

Same for the research vs beams. I take cybertronic over autolab though. I can often steal autolab.

A lot depends on what I can trade for/steal too!

[nato]

Well these were just the ones I saw as difficult. I'm definitely happy to hear other opinions, especially since the big people here have more MoO experience than me.

For instance, I'm still surprised about the gaia vs evolution thing.

Just speaking for myself, Chemistry doesn't seem hard to me. The only missiles I'm going to use a lot of are MIRV nukes; after those I try to switch to beams. So I'm not interested in more missile techs. For pollution I either get PP + atmospheric renewer, or just core waste dumps; so I don't see pollution as pressing either. Just how I see it.

For the one you mention, I never had a problem choosing microlite. I see what you mean though, there are a lot of tradeoffs in chemistry too.

All the tough choices in the other categories are easier. For example I would like missile base, but I NEED auto factories.

I think I was going a different direction with this than people seem to take it. I was trying to list the choices with the highest opportunity cost ... the things you most miss getting. Maybe I mislabled this.

Of course I ALWAYS get auto factories, no question. Its not like I'm thinking hard to decide there. I just find the missile bases something I miss a lot (early game only), so they are a high opportunity cost.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by nato
For instance, I'm still surprised about the gaia vs evolution thing.

For the one you mention, I never had a problem choosing microlite. I see what you mean though, there are a lot of tradeoffs in chemistry too.

Of course I ALWAYS get auto factories, no question. Its not like I'm thinking hard to decide there. I just find the missile bases something I miss a lot (early game only), so they are a high opportunity cost.

Well what are your thoughts on the Gaia issue now? Do you see the value of Gaia to a large empire compared to 4 more pciks? Those picks come at a time that you are normally kicking butt anyway. When you consider that you can win with no picks, do you need 4 more after using 20? Admittedly you can do either and win.
Nano Tech is one that most players at most times will take Zortrium. Passing on Nano Dis cost you pollution until you get Core Dumps (if you get them) unless you are a race that ignores pollution. Microlite add +1 production to all industry workers and that is no small amount over an empire each turn. It all hurts. Once in awhile I will be able to skip armor as I got to Orion and came out with X-armor.
I miss those missile bases as well and have lost planets that I would have saved if I had them.

[vmxa1]

I think that the 150 rp pick of:
Dauntless guide, Opt comp and labs is easy to make, but not easy to live with. The guidance system is so useful in the early game. It allows your missiles to retarget. The AI not having that is what lets me win those early fights. I can retreat a targeted ship and those missles go away. My 2 rounds of missile stay on to hit as I have some ship that is not targeted.

[nato]

Yeah I see that in most cases Gaia will be more valuable than evolution. I just said I'm still surprised by it kind of. But it makes sense, more population is more power. Thats why subterranean is so good.

Like I said, I just spend so much time agonizing over custom race picks, it never even occured to me not to get more.

Man it would be nice to have those 4 extra at the start though ... I love designing races.

[vmxa1]

Yes it is a big part of the replayablitiy.

[GePap]

I just play creative: at 8 points, its very expensive, but I never have to choose.

[vmxa1]

Having to make tough choices adds to the fun of and the challenge of the game. Sometimes you have to try different tacts as you face new problems. It forces me to learn how some things work to get the most out of them and just makes the game play varied. A prewarp non creative race will make you work.

[nato]

Creative sure does solve a lot of headaches, but I just gotta have those 8 points! So I don't usually choose it unless I'm designing the race around it. Trading for techs is a decent substitute for it kind of.

[GePap]

On the Gaia-Evoluton issue:

If I have to chose, I always go for evolution, and then pick, and it has right the exact name has utterly slipped my mind, the 4 point trait that gives you extra Support point (a starting trait for the Msharn). It always gives me a significant boost insupport points just in time in the late game for huge fleets.

I find chemistry 2000 level a hard choice:

Zortium, or the two nanotechs is difficult. I almost never get Zortium as neutornium is around the corner (damn zeon missiles!).

The Energy storage-megafluxer one is also hard, but push come to shove, I go for Megafluxers.

I almost always get Stellar Converters: best anti-planet defense weapon of all. Sit way back and wipe them out.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by GePap
On the Gaia-Evoluton issue:

If I have to chose, I always go for evolution, and then pick, and it has right the exact name has utterly slipped my mind, the 4 point trait that gives you extra Support point (a starting trait for the Msharn). It always gives me a significant boost insupport points just in time in the late game for huge fleets.

Warlord. Gives a command point boost based on the number of planets you have IIRC. Also gives you a boost to experience in starting ship crews and lets your max level reach ultra-elite. Supposedly.
I do exactly the same thing.
Early on both the Elerians and the Mrrshrn can be a real pain with this trait and large offensive fleets.

[Sikander]

Yea, I love taking warlord at this point. It allows me to build a huge high quality fleet.

[intrigue]

evolution vs gaia...
I usually pick evolution, and then don't use the picks.
my score is multiplied by 40% more than whatever it was before now

[vmxa1]

I would say tha if you are trying for score, you should use creative to not miss any of the pop enhancing techs.

[originalbork]

A few quick thoughts. First don't worry about stealing tech take what you need and if you get the rest great, if not it was unnecessary.

Construction
----------------
80: Reinforced Hull vs Anti Missile Rockets:

No brainer Reinforced hull. Anti-missile rockets have no offensive cabability and if you don't take RH you will be meat against Emissions Guidance. Use Battle Scanners and lasers for missile defence in the early game.

150: Automated Factories vs Missile Base:

The choice is between AF & Heavy Armor. A production race may bypass AF if they are early attackers in a game with low players again once EGS comes heavy armor is somewhat neutralized. Planetary defences are worthless. If you are playing SP the computer on impossible is fodder, thus you don't worry about planetary protection you worry about speed annihilation, and in MP a few MIRV's and a runner (empty frig with Aug Engines and Battle pods) will take you out.

650: Battlestation vs Robo Mining Plant:

Another easy one, take production. With a good production race Robo Miners will take your pop farms near 500k per turn. With the extra production and population you can tax instead of take command points.


6000: Advanced City Planning vs Star Fortress:

At this point you must take SF. The addition of 4 pop per planet will not offset the taxation needed to maintain the fleet you are carrying at this point. Getting the extra command points only applies in MP as the game is over in SP.


3500: Energy Absorber vs High Energy Focus vs Megafluxers:

Megafluxers easy. You can fit a ton of stuff in. EA & HEF are not very important.


Chemistry
------------

Your tech tree through chemistry is probably the most vital, as it dictates pre turn 100 attacks. In playing SP, I usually go duets, poll proc, irrid and then zort. Range is key in reaching attacks, I never need better than zort to finish the game and the computer rarely has enough pd to handle the shear number of nukes they will see.

In MP games it is more common to see a different tree. Duets (unless you have a great start), Mercs (much better missile needed for MP games), Atmospheric Renewer and then Zort only taking the next fuel cell later.

Zort is a massive breaking point in the game. The tech run to zort is critical and if you time a good zort bb coming out at that time you will have a nice advantage.

Computers
--------------
150: Research Lab vs Optronic Computer vs Dauntless:

Not taking RL is impossible to overcome at this level.

400: Neural Scanner vs Scout Lab:

Scout lab is worthless, you shouldn't many have ships early. If you have them on the ships the ships are slow and worthless.

900: Holo Simulator vs Planetary Supercomputer vs Positronic Computer:

In SP games it is supers. Holo is out as a 10% morale bonus will not even remotely make up for the fact that all planets have 10 rp before scientists. Positronic is unnecessary as the computer can't design a decent ship. You won't need anything other than missiles at this level. On top of that your best races are all unification and can't use Holo Sims.

In MP the positronic may be enough to swing the power but only taking them will quickly allow you to put a game ending fleet on the board.

2750: Autolab vs Cybertronic vs Structual Analyzer:

This answer is almost the same as the above. Although in MP cybertronic is much more likely to allow you to put a game ending fleet on the board.

4500: Galactic Cybernet vs Virtual Reality Network:

Same as RL v HS. Unification never takes morale.

6000: Achilles Targeting vs Molecular Computer vs Pleasure Dome:

You don't need the research at this point. Take the comp if you don't have one and Achilles if you do.


Biology
---------
80: Biospheres vs Hydroponic:

Hydroponic and Subterranean are too expensive to maintain they will cause massive taxation problems. A uni farmer on an Aquatic planet does 4.5 before upgrades. Only farm on Oceans, Terran & Gaia, freighter your food.

400: Cloning Center vs Soil Enrichment:

Cloning is king. Again with uni aquatic farmers you don't need many.

1500: Subterranean Farms vs Weather Control System:

There is no choice WCS. If you need this tech relatively early you are in massive trouble.

2750: Heightened Intelligence vs Psionics:

Again you don't take morale as a unification.

Physics
---------
250: Battle Scanner vs Tachyon Communications vs Tachyon Scanner:

Battle scanner is key it is +50 to beams. TC is useless at this early level fleets are not large enough for it to matter.

900: Neutron Blaster vs Neutron Scanner:

Absolutely key to see your enemy coming.

1500: Jump Gate vs Sub-Space Communications:

No brain choice Sub Space, you usually research this as you are about to unload 3 new BB. You will need the command points desperately and if you don't well all the jump gates in the world won't save you from shear numbers.

2000: Multi Phased Shields vs Phasors:

Great weapon and PD weapon nuff said.

3500 Isn't there a choice on Plasma. Most of you probably take plasma cannon, but that is a useless weapon. By the time you get it close enough to do damage, a good player will take you down with emg. Take the plasma rifle you will need the bonus for ground combat and boarding efforts.

6000: Hyper Space Communications vs Mauler Device vs Sensors:

No choice, you need command points. The mauler device is useless. Give me phasors or gauss cannon any day. They both have AF.


Fields
-------
900: Class III Shield vs Radiation Shield:

Wrong choice it is Cl 3 v Warp disapators. In MP I usually take WD as I will kill you if I win the battle. If you have been following my thread I keep talking about EMG ships. If you don't have WD they are just a threat. If you do then I can either fire my 2 rounds and warp out knowing you can't hit my runner ships or if you have pd I will use my augy engines and significant fodder (just fast, hard) missiles until my mirv and mirv emg are just emptying into your hull. In SP I take cl3 as I usually run the ships back to their home where they eventually make a futile stand and usually my first bb that I put out will be effective even at the end of a game.

2750: Class V Shield vs Gauss Cannon:

Gauss is an awesome weapon. When you take it you need to run immediately to CL VII because they aren't great until they AF. Time your ships to come out the turn after you get cl7.

You did miss quite a few decisions.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by originalbork
"6000: Advanced City Planning vs Star Fortress:

At this point you must take SF. The addition of 4 pop per planet will not offset the taxation needed to maintain the fleet you are carrying at this point. Getting the extra command points only applies in MP as the game is over in SP."

First let me say this was a nice job and I agree with it for the most part. Not that that matters. The only part I am not in concert with are minor and center around a game when not playing a Uni race. Just a small quibble.
Start with Star Forts, in some games your are correct, but for me I do not need a fleet so big that it can not be managed with my comand points as I will have lots of planets, so the 4 pop is just more income. This is not a critical choice and can be just a preference.

"400: Cloning Center vs Soil Enrichment:

Cloning is king. Again with uni aquatic farmers you don't need many."

This is one that is race dependant and situational. In an SP game, you really do not need cloners. If you are a Uni you can get by with out the soil.

"1500: Subterranean Farms vs Weather Control System:

There is no choice WCS. If you need this tech relatively early you are in massive trouble."

Again if not Uni or have some food enhancing trait, this choice is Farms. WC can not be put on all planet types. If you want to run food farms, then WC makes sense. This not so good if you are getting blockades layed on you, you will want farms then.

"900: Class III Shield vs Radiation Shield:

Wrong choice it is Cl 3 v Warp disapators. In MP I usually take WD as I will kill you if I win the battle. If you have been following my thread I keep talking about EMG ships. If you don't have WD they are just a threat. If you do then I can either fire my 2 rounds and warp out knowing you can't hit my runner ships or if you have pd I will use my augy engines and significant fodder (just fast, hard) missiles until my mirv and mirv emg are just emptying into your hull. In SP I take cl3 as I usually run the ships back to their home where they eventually make a futile stand and usually my first bb that I put out will be effective even at the end of a game. "

Yes in an MP you will want the warp for all the reason you gave and those can apply to SP as well. This group is a tough choice. In many games I have a lot of radiated planets and want the shield. I am willing to let the AI escape a few times as I will get the ships later. It is the class 3 shield I lament the most.

"2750: Class V Shield vs Gauss Cannon:

Gauss is an awesome weapon. When you take it you need to run immediately to CL VII because they aren't great until they AF. Time your ships to come out the turn after you get cl7."

I do not have a dog in this fight as I can take either one and be happy.

"You did miss quite a few decisions."

Not sure who you is here, but I did not miss any. I also do not agree that most will take plasma cannons. I have posted many times about not using them in most cases. Those that use them are probably creative and did not give up the rifles. After 131 the cannons got too expensive.
So in conclusion, a nice job, thanks and really I do not have any significant disagreement with it.

[nato]

originalbork, reading this and your other posts, I see you have a lot of great knowledge, and that is cool. I've played some RTSs, and I know there is a big difference between SP and MP in those, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was one in 4X games too.

Unfortunately, along with that MP skill comes the MP attitude. "Wow, I roxxors and u sux LMAO!!!1111" and of course, make sure to call everyone a rook.

Seriously though, thanks for your post on this thread. It is cool to see an experienced MP perspective. I have no doubt you have plenty more MoO knowledge than I do.

It would just be cool if your posts didn't all say "I pwned you noob" somehow.

You did miss quite a few decisions.

Oh gee, I guess I'll have to go question my value as a human being.

[originalbork]

Meaning a few decisions you would have to make like

cells v armor
poll proc v merc
engines v augy
engines v bombs
transporters v engines or whatever goes with transporters.