Who wants to play with Galvatron?

Galvatron · November 10, 2002, 13:27

Well as I've too much spare time

I would like to start a "History-PBEM" I played this scen for hours and found it very entertaining. Think it would make an ideal PBEM-game. Here are the civs:

German Empire: Galvatron
British Empire
French Empire: MeckPomm
Russian Empire
Austrian Empire
Italian Empire: Choke
Ottoman Empire

Oh and the scen was made from: Sound Wave
Thanks

Ok guys hope we will get this full

Choke · November 10, 2002, 14:32

I'll take the Italians

MeckPomm · November 10, 2002, 14:33

Russian or Frensh Empire for me, please

Henrik · November 10, 2002, 14:49

Choke · November 10, 2002, 14:50

Why so glum Henrik?

Galvatron · November 10, 2002, 15:09

WoW didn't expect such a fast response. It's a very active community here

Ok, Italians for Choke and the Frenchies for good old Germanys MeckPomm.

Hendrik, my Swedish friend and fellow European, would you like to participate too or just look sad

?

Darius871 · November 10, 2002, 20:16

Are you guys aware of how much of a disaster this scenario was for PBEM? (especially you choke, I thought we talked about this?)

Case · November 10, 2002, 21:01

What was wrong with it? - Isn't it just a modifed version of AoW?

Darius871 · November 11, 2002, 00:07

Did you follow the civfanatics game? It had so many technical inaccuracies that I (Russia) was able to conquer all of Germany and half of AH in one turn, and then Rhodry (Britain) and I conquered all of France in the next turn. Then, after we finished off France, some German forces in Denmark reconquered Germany, the remainder of AH conquered all of Poland and Italy conquered nearly all of Russia!

Then we just decided to end the game as the scenario was so obviously flawed that it was getting ridiculous. At least Exile had specific ways of preventing unrealistic results like this.

There are also other minor problems, like the game only being 50 turns so that you have people building Dreadnoughts and Early Tanks in the mid 40's.

On a separate note, some would call it a ripoff rather than a modified version, unless you're being sarcastic, I can't tell.

Btw here are some links, the thread was still a pretty interesting read, lotsa diplomacy:

Germany and half of AH
France
Academia's counterattack

Case · November 11, 2002, 00:12

I see what you mean.

I called it a modified version because IMO Soundwave didn't make enough changes for it to qualify as being a rip-off.

Darius871 · November 11, 2002, 00:14

Oh.

Darius871 · November 11, 2002, 00:35

Btw here are maps of what happened to sum it up for you all:

Case · November 11, 2002, 00:54

Darius871 · November 11, 2002, 03:17

Yeah, that confused, disfigured freak of a Europe just cries out "please kill me..."

techumseh · November 11, 2002, 03:48

It looks, umm, very fluid.

Galvatron · November 11, 2002, 05:53

But there is another History-game going on here and it's doing well. I don't think this scen is unbalanced it's just the way you played it. I for my part would never get the idea to use the railroads to march from Italy to Russia

When you play it this way of course it's ruined but that way you can destroy every scen and you can't blame the designer for the outcome of your playingstyle (you can build railroads across the country in every scen).

Even if you call it a rip-off I like History much more than AoW for the following reasons:

1) The units are designed much better. Exile just took existing units from other scens and packed them into his creation while Soundwave used new ones and they are looking good.

2) History is more realistic from the viewpoint of countries:
I always get mad when scen-designers packed A-H and Germany into one civ and just say: Hey they both speak German they are the same. Austria WAS and IS an independent country and deserves to be an extra civ. And why for gods sake did he include Spain????? What was the greatest achievement of Spain in the 20th century??? That they exist

? I mean if he would replace the Spaniards with A-H perhaps I would change my mind but playing Spain in this timeframe is absolutely ridiculous.

On a last note:
If you play the scen in a normal

way than it's great fun. I would like to get this scen on the road hope the other participants too.

Exile · November 11, 2002, 11:24

1.) "History" was not a modification. It was a ripoff. He didn't ask me, he just did it and then said that I somehow approved in his readme file. That was wrong. I never knew about what he'd done with my scenario until it was pointed out to me by someone else. "History" is a disaster and is not, AFAICS, a viable scenario.

2.) No, the units are not designed much better. He didn't design the unit graphics he used and neither did I. The important thing to point out is the fact that my units are balanced and provide more "realistic" play. His are wildly overpowered and strikingly unbalanced and the tremendously "fluid" gameplay currents in the pbem game mentioned above support this contention.

3.) Spain, under Franco, could well have joined either the axis or allies in the 30s or 40s and would have presented and entirely new dimension to the war. The fact that Spain refused to intervene during the war frankly surprised everyone at the time. As a facist dictator, his contemporaries firmly believed that when the wider war came, Franco would naturally side with Mussolini and Hitler. AH was a dilapidated, crippled, ancien regime. Nationalist fervor within the Empire further eroded any semblance of autonomy. The Austrian government hadto ask for the "Blank Check" from the Kaiser before they could even issue an ultimatum to Serbia. AH, by 1914, had long since become an anachronism in the 20th century. It was powerless and was increasingly only able to function diplomatically as an ally and adjunct of Germany.

Don't argue with me until you can show me some credentials. If you don't have at least an undergrad degree in history, I'm simply not going to debate with you. You're not where I'm at in terms of historical analysis and knowledge.

Soundwave was/is a very energetic and impatient young man who has the unfortunate habit of acting first and thinking of the consequences only afterward. I don't dislike the guy, but I'm unwilling to remain silent when one of my works is being criticized and compared to his.

Galvatron · November 11, 2002, 16:42

Hey, hey hold it. I just said I like Sound Waves scen more than yours you don't need to insult me for this. Well just for your identification I study German linguistics and history and I'm two years before my final exams so I think I know more of German history than you.

But I never wanted to argue with you, just start a little PBEM and have fun, that’s all.

I find it very impolite from you to bump in and tell me I'm not allowed to critizise your scen. I think it's a question of good behaviour to accept opinions from others and not ripe their head off because they don't agree with you. I like the units and the civ-choice form History more, that’s it. My parents told me to talk with people and allow other opinions and not roll over them.
Thank you.

Darius871 · November 11, 2002, 20:03

Exile put it perfectly, but I thought I'd respond to a few things Galvatron:

Quote:

But there is another History-game going on here and it's doing well.

I'm in the game and I can assure you it's not. After the disaster at Civfanatics we are continuing it for almost no reason, and every turn is a nuisance. Some quotes:

Quote:

OK is anything happening?

It has been so long since I played the last turn in this pbem that I had forgotten nearly everything about the country...

well, there seems to be a lack of commitment to this game Cyrion. So i guess if you can check in here every 3 days or so, you will be among the most active players.

I guess this tells me how little have happened here over the last month or so...

I must admit I haven't got the slightest idea what is going on in this game: the pace is so slow...

Quote:

I for my part would never get the idea to use the railroads to march from Italy to Russia When you play it this way of course it's ruined but that way you can destroy every scen and you can't blame the designer for the outcome of your playingstyle (you can build railroads across the country in every scen).

Well tell me how you would do it then? The units are so unrealistic that it takes one artillery unit or one cavalry unit to empty a border city. When you have 16 artillery and 19 cavalry, it's difficult to not conquer an entire country in one turn. I can tell you since, ahem, I was in the game and you weren't that this had nothing to do with our tactics, nothing to do with railroads, and everything to do with terrible units. Exile specifically designed his scenario so that conquests like this wouldn't occur, and in PBEM gameplay his ideas worked.

H Tower · November 11, 2002, 22:17

i'm interested in playing a pbem, but from what i hear, i'm not interested in joining this one.

Case · November 11, 2002, 23:59

Quote:

Exile specifically designed his scenario so that conquests like this wouldn't occur, and in PBEM gameplay his ideas worked.

In the first AoW game on this site, France got blitzed in one turn, and in the second Germany met the same fate

Darius871 · November 12, 2002, 00:18

They didn't conquer all of Germany/AH in one turn, they took about 1/4 and then El surrendered the rest.

Case · November 12, 2002, 01:17

True, but France still fell in a couple of turns. The combination of railroads + powerful weapons + human intelligence is a very dangerous one in a Civ scenario

Darius871 · November 12, 2002, 02:36

Just so you know, Choke has decided not to play in this PBEM. On AIM a few weeks ago we were talking about this scenario, and when he joined he didn't realize it was the same one. Now that he remembers he's pulling out, and I'm posting for him since he's banned at the moment.

Exile · November 12, 2002, 03:28

And this is why I've been finding other things to do lately.

"you don't need to insult me . . ."

Show me where I insulted you. I don't care whether you approve of soundwave's ripoff or not. What I do care about is that people have a full understanding that his "scenario" was NOT made with my approval. It's a disaster, and I DO NOT want anyone thinking that I had anything to do with it.

"I think I know more of German history than you."

No. You don't. I taught at universities. I run into this so often. It's why I detest talking about history outside of a classroom. There, it is structured. The students know who I am, and defer, in the process, learning. Outside a classroom, I have to deal with undergrads and other know-it-alls who, after they have sufficient beer, insist that they are more knowledgeable than a degreed expert. Moreover, I'm not getting paid to lecture here.

"I find it very impolite from you to bump in and tell me I'm not allowed to critizise your scen."

Yeah, sometimes I can be rather impolite. Sometimes, I have good reasons. No where did I forbid anyone from criticizing my scenario. I did forcefully decline any further "debate" on historical issues. You want to contest my conclusions? Do it in the journals of my field. Or don't.

"I think it's a question of good behaviour to accept opinions from others and not ripe their head off because they don't agree with you."

And I don't agree with you. Your "opinion" was an attack on the rationale for my selection of player positions. And an energetic one at that. I rebutted. If my prose style isn't sufficiently limp enough for you--too bad. I don't have the time or inclination to mince words.

Lastly, if you can create a better scenario . . . do it. We all would welcome a new scenario or two. Put your knowledge and energy to making something. Then I might take your comments more seriously. And YES, until you make a scenario yourself, you simply DO NOT have any idea what it takes to create one that works.

techumseh · November 12, 2002, 04:10

Eeee-haww! Just like the old days!

Case · November 12, 2002, 05:16

I should add that the existance of RR's does encourage diplomacy by creating mutually assured destruction

Darius871 · November 12, 2002, 05:36

I don't know about that; IMO usually it gives the advantage to the attacker, so it prevents MAD. You know, Marseilles and Corsica can't really strike back too well against a Germany that attacked first.

conmcb25 · November 12, 2002, 11:37

Galvatron

Cant play on this one would like to help you out but this isnt the game and this isn't the time for me. Sorry.

techumseh · November 12, 2002, 12:27

So, just to set the cat amoung the pigeons, any chance that Galvatron is a DL for Soundwave? What ever happened to Soundwave?

While I wouldn't claim to be a historian, I do know a little about scenarios. And I agree with Case here. The effects of railways in Civ2 have always been ahistorical. Unlimited movement is bad enough, but it's really the unlimited capacity that makes them a von Moltke fantasy.

I think the author of AoW concedes the potential for Civ2 railways to destabilize the scenario by erasing them from all border areas, the low countries and all of Russia. Historically (oops) in 1900, there were active railways in all these areas. In one game of AoW, admittedly single player (the Austro-German), after quickly rebuilding the rail line between Strasbourg and Nancy, I was in Paris by the third turn of the game. And this with only artillery and a couple of cavalry units.

I can see that History-PBEM is a non-functional bit of plagerism, but the seeds of imbalance were already planted in it's legitimate sire.