Thread Tools
Old November 10, 2002, 17:26   #1
BurntHostage
Settler
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: stinkin' warmongerin' USA Yeehaa
Posts: 11
This pack's AI's fighting ability sucks

I'm sorry, but the AI in this pack still plays like a *****

I'm poised to crush France (muah hahah) after bloodbathing 2 other civs to extinction, when France 'sneak attacks' with one puny marine.

And the AI's attack? Pillage. Whoa.... look out, after 5,000 years the AI might actually start to put a dent in my income.

Gee, real tough for me to handle that when I'm sitting off France's coast with 3 mixed navy fleets carrying 36 stealth bombers and 2 dozen tanks (at least).

Granted, some of the pathetic French counterattack was more substantial (still pretty easily repulsed though), but I was also watching the AI civs war with one another - almost all they did was pillage, pillage, pillage. About the only thing I see in this game as far as combat now is PILLAGING - BORING!


All this pillaging in Apolyton's CTP pack sucks and makes this game even duller.

Sorry - the civs ARE smarter and the diplomacy is waay improved - but all they do is PILLAGE.

So, how do I prevent the AI from using pillage as an attack?
BurntHostage is offline  
Old November 10, 2002, 17:53   #2
ahenobarb
Prince
 
ahenobarb's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 437
I agree with you. I used to have the same problem. Fortunately, there is a way to change this. Open up the strategies file in
C:\Program Files\Activision\Call To Power 2\ctp2_data\default\aidata

and scroll through the file looking for the numbers that affect the agressiveness of the AI. What you are looking for are the attack numbers and the seige numbers. When you find these, increase them to a much higher number.

For isntance, the number I have for the Default strategy are:

GoalElement { Goal GOAL_DEFEND Priority 557000 MaxEval 2 MaxExec 1 PerCity }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_SEIGE Priority 900000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK Priority 720000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_HARASS Priority 490000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }


In the original file that came with the game, the values were:

GoalElement { Goal GOAL_DEFEND Priority 557000 MaxEval 2 MaxExec 1 PerCity }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_SEIGE Priority 405000 MaxEval 20 MaxExec 4 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK Priority 405000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_HARASS Priority 355000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }


Now, the AI units/armies head straight to my cities. It's really tough game play, but it's much more interesting. Now there is the possibility that I might lose a game.
ahenobarb is offline  
Old November 10, 2002, 18:40   #3
Turambar
Call to Power II Democracy GameCivilization II PBEMCall to Power Democracy GameCTP2 Source Code Project
Prince
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England
Posts: 310
What difficulty level were you playing on?
Turambar is offline  
Old November 10, 2002, 18:53   #4
Maquiladora
Call to Power II MultiplayerCTP2 Source Code ProjectCall to Power PBEMCall to Power Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Local Time: 11:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,665
Yeah i noticed that too, when the AI has you right where they want you with 4 full stacks around your cities, they start taking out your farms, oh no! But now you can expect to lose a few cities now and then.
__________________
Call to Power 2: Apolyton Edition - download the latest version (7th June 2010)
CtP2 AE Wiki & Modding Reference
One way to compile the CtP2 Source Code.
Maquiladora is offline  
Old November 10, 2002, 19:26   #5
BurntHostage
Settler
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: stinkin' warmongerin' USA Yeehaa
Posts: 11
Thanks ahenobarb I'll try your strat changes
BurntHostage is offline  
Old November 10, 2002, 19:28   #6
Peter Triggs
CTP2 Source Code ProjectCivilization IV Creators
King
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Gone Fishin, Canada
Posts: 1,059
BurntHostage,

What mod are you playing?
Peter Triggs is offline  
Old November 10, 2002, 19:35   #7
BurntHostage
Settler
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: stinkin' warmongerin' USA Yeehaa
Posts: 11
I'm playing the Apolyton mod

I can't be that good, can I?

It was the next-to-hardest level, but I've spent months playing this and other Civ games before (literally) so maybe I need to play the toughest level...

Or maybe I just need to handicap myself more while playing:
BurntHostage is offline  
Old November 10, 2002, 19:50   #8
Peter Triggs
CTP2 Source Code ProjectCivilization IV Creators
King
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Gone Fishin, Canada
Posts: 1,059
Maybe, but probably not.

It's like Ahenobarb said. I always thought that Hex and Dale had prioritized the Pillage goal a bit too much but all the feedback was positive so I figured I was a minority of one.

The crucial thing is that the goals you want it to do ATTACK, SEIGE, and HARASS should be higher than the PILLAGE goal
Peter Triggs is offline  
Old November 10, 2002, 21:53   #9
SMIFFGIG
Call to Power II Democracy GameCall to Power II MultiplayerCTP2 Source Code Project
Prince
 
SMIFFGIG's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 684
i think this should maybe be changed in the next Cradle version (if there is a next)

P.S. Is this the same in MedMod2 ???
__________________
Oxygen should be considered a drug
Tiberian Sun Retro
My Mod for Tiberian Sun Webmaster of
http://www.tiberiumsun.com
SMIFFGIG is offline  
Old November 11, 2002, 02:04   #10
Dale
Emperor
 
Dale's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,944
Thanks for the feedback. No one has said anything on the pillaging before now, except for a comment or two on "the AI could've taken my city, but pillaged instead". No one's said it was a problem before. The SAP2 goals are taken straight from Cradle. So that's why they both have the same thing.
Dale is offline  
Old November 11, 2002, 11:00   #11
hexagonian
The Courts of Candle'Bre
Emperor
 
hexagonian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Smemperor
Posts: 3,405
Noted...

Hear are the settings for the STRATEGY_DEFAULT in Cradle. The ATTACK and SEIGE numbers are higher than the pillage numbers for the STRATEGY_ATTACK and STRATEGY_SEIGE setings though, and there are a variety of settings for the various other STRATEGY_(SCIENTIST, ECONOMIC and so forth...).

GoalElement { Goal GOAL_SEIGE Priority 620000 MaxEval 20 MaxExec 15 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK Priority 720000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_PILLAGE Priority 753000 MaxEval 10 MaxExec 5 }

I'm not sure exactly when the AI will switch to a different STRATEGY though...how long will it stay in ATTACK or SEIGE???

As stated, increasing the priority numbers to 900000 for ATTACK and SEIGE (and decreasing PILLAGE to 500000) for all of the STRATEGYs should help in that regard.

One of the reasons why I did not do that in Cradle was because on the highest levels of Cradle, the AI is able to maintain a good science lead and thus a sizable unit ability advantage, and it has the use of the Frenzy code, which prompts it to move its forces into human lands. Frenzy also is also more hair trigger in regards to the hate levels - it prompts the AI to more quickly declare war on the human player.

Once the AI is in your lands and it has declared war on you it has three main choices - Pillage/Seige/Attack. I have tried to balance out the three, trying to keep in mind that advantage that the AI does have.

If the AI pressed its advantage to its fullest ability, it could roll through a player very easily. My last game was a good example of this - the AI was fielding Legions/Belfrois on turn 200 while I had just gotten to Hoplites. And the Incas were methodically taking my cities too, even with the settings as they are. (I'm not ashamed to admit that I did end up ditching that game because I was too far back...my military had also been decimated trying to stop them)

Players have also reported back that there has been a good mix of city losses in Cradle, so I haven't tinkered with the numbers too much lately.

I would like to suggest for a player to make the changes above and to report back on what they observed, giving higher priority to ATTACK and SEIGE on all of the STRATEGY_ entries.
__________________
Yes, let's be optimistic until we have reason to be otherwise...No, let's be pessimistic until we are forced to do otherwise...Maybe, let's be balanced until we are convinced to do otherwise. -- DrSpike, Skanky Burns, Shogun Gunner
...aisdhieort...dticcok...
hexagonian is offline  
Old November 11, 2002, 13:20   #12
Turambar
Call to Power II Democracy GameCivilization II PBEMCall to Power Democracy GameCTP2 Source Code Project
Prince
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: England
Posts: 310
Quote:
If the AI pressed its advantage to its fullest ability, it could roll through a player very easily. My last game was a good example of this - the AI was fielding Legions/Belfrois on turn 200 while I had just gotten to Hoplites.
Would it not be better to reduce the AI's science advantage and get it to press itself to it's fullest ability fight wise?

I'd rather see an AI with only a slightly higher tech lead fight as well as it can then a more reserved AI with a huge tech lead.
Turambar is offline  
Old November 11, 2002, 23:26   #13
BurntHostage
Settler
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: stinkin' warmongerin' USA Yeehaa
Posts: 11
Pillaging is overrated 'cause in this version the ai's build up so much infrastructure they wind up rebuilding pillaged tiles instantly only to get pillaged again in a couple turns (and over and over)

Here's what I changed the settings to:

GoalElement { Goal GOAL_DEFEND Priority 557000 MaxEval 2 MaxExec 1 PerCity }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_SEIGE Priority 900000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_ATTACK Priority 750000 MaxEval 25 MaxExec 25 }
GoalElement { Goal GOAL_PILLAGE Priority 103000 MaxEval 10 MaxExec 5 }

Swear to you guys, before when I watched the cpus fight each other it was all pillage now they're attacking cities/units like crazy.
BurntHostage is offline  
Old November 11, 2002, 23:37   #14
BurntHostage
Settler
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: stinkin' warmongerin' USA Yeehaa
Posts: 11
Don't get me wrong - this mod is waaaaay better use of the ai than the original game!

You actually made it interesting to play again
__________________
</i>"We apologize for the Inconvenience"</i> — God's last message to His creation, <i>Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy</i>
BurntHostage is offline  
Old November 12, 2002, 08:55   #15
Tamerlin
Call to Power II Democracy GameCTP2 Source Code Project
King
 
Tamerlin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Toulouse (South-western France)
Posts: 2,051
This thread is one of the most interesting one I have ever read. I decided to change the values of my Apolyton Pack strategies accordingly, I thus opened the text file but when I scrolled the whole text I saw GOALS were distributed all along the text.

Do I have to change all the values each time ATTACK, PILLAGE, DEFEND and SIEGE are concerned (I have noted some goals are set to 0) ?

If not, what are the lines that need to be changed ?

BurntHostage : (to be pronounced rolling the "r") the dreadful revenge of the undomitable french people will be your loss...
__________________
"Democracy is the worst form of government there is, except for all the others that have been tried." Sir Winston Churchill
Tamerlin is offline  
Old November 12, 2002, 09:53   #16
ahenobarb
Prince
 
ahenobarb's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
This thread is one of the most interesting one I have ever read. I decided to change the values of my Apolyton Pack strategies accordingly, I thus opened the text file but when I scrolled the whole text I saw GOALS were distributed all along the text.

Do I have to change all the values each time ATTACK, PILLAGE, DEFEND and SIEGE are concerned (I have noted some goals are set to 0) ?

If not, what are the lines that need to be changed ?

BurntHostage : (to be pronounced rolling the "r") the dreadful revenge of the undomitable french people will be your loss...
I changed the values for all of the strategies. However, the first time I did this, I changed all the strategies except default because I thought that only the Barbarians would use the default value. I didn't notice much change in the AI's behavior, but when I changed the default values there was a real difference.

I'm not certain when the other strategies are accessed, but I would change them anyway (no fear -- no fear ) just to make sure the AI keeps the pressure on.
ahenobarb is offline  
Old November 12, 2002, 12:16   #17
hexagonian
The Courts of Candle'Bre
Emperor
 
hexagonian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Smemperor
Posts: 3,405
Barbarians have their own set of strategies. Change them all except the STRATEGY_BARBARIAN or you will be losing A LOT of early cities to them.

I'm guessing that the AI mainly uses the STRATEGY_DEFAULT settings for the normal AI civs, based on what is being reported...
__________________
Yes, let's be optimistic until we have reason to be otherwise...No, let's be pessimistic until we are forced to do otherwise...Maybe, let's be balanced until we are convinced to do otherwise. -- DrSpike, Skanky Burns, Shogun Gunner
...aisdhieort...dticcok...
hexagonian is offline  
Old November 12, 2002, 17:59   #18
Tamerlin
Call to Power II Democracy GameCTP2 Source Code Project
King
 
Tamerlin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Toulouse (South-western France)
Posts: 2,051
Thanks for your help Ahenobarb and Hexagonian.

I don't know exactly what I will do when I triffle with the APOL_Startegies.txt but I'am about to do it anyway.
__________________
"Democracy is the worst form of government there is, except for all the others that have been tried." Sir Winston Churchill
Tamerlin is offline  
Old November 12, 2002, 20:45   #19
Peter Triggs
CTP2 Source Code ProjectCivilization IV Creators
King
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Gone Fishin, Canada
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
I didn't notice much change in the AI's behavior, but when I changed the default values there was a real difference.
Actually this shouldn't be happening. The AI's base strategic states are initialized according to personalities, e.g. Stalin has the Militarist attribute and gets initialized via STRATEGY_MILITARIST_DEFAULT. Also, if they're at war they should be using one of the war strategies.
Peter Triggs is offline  
Old November 12, 2002, 20:48   #20
HuangShang
Call to Power II Democracy GameCTP2 Source Code Project
King
 
HuangShang's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Berkeley
Posts: 1,375
will this be in the next mod updates?
HuangShang is offline  
Old November 12, 2002, 21:03   #21
hexagonian
The Courts of Candle'Bre
Emperor
 
hexagonian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Smemperor
Posts: 3,405
Here are adjusted CRADLE Strategies and a reduced AI bonus for the AI, as per Turambar's request. This will change Cradle to 1.34b and requires 1.34a to be installed beforehand. If this comes back with favorable reports, I will make it standard.

Thanks for the feedback on this - keep it coming...
Attached Files:
File Type: zip 134b1.zip (20.3 KB, 5 views)
__________________
Yes, let's be optimistic until we have reason to be otherwise...No, let's be pessimistic until we are forced to do otherwise...Maybe, let's be balanced until we are convinced to do otherwise. -- DrSpike, Skanky Burns, Shogun Gunner
...aisdhieort...dticcok...

Last edited by hexagonian; December 10, 2002 at 01:16.
hexagonian is offline  
Old November 12, 2002, 21:11   #22
BurntHostage
Settler
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: stinkin' warmongerin' USA Yeehaa
Posts: 11
sure...!
call it the BurntMod!
__________________
</i>"We apologize for the Inconvenience"</i> — God's last message to His creation, <i>Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy</i>
BurntHostage is offline  
Old November 12, 2002, 21:54   #23
Tamerlin
Call to Power II Democracy GameCTP2 Source Code Project
King
 
Tamerlin's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Toulouse (South-western France)
Posts: 2,051
Quote:
Originally posted by hexagonian
Here are adjusted CRADLE Strategies...
Thanks Hexagonian, I will use your "Strategies" adjustments in my future SAP2 game I hope to start before the end of this week. If anybody here is interested I will post a short after action report (unfortunately I don't have Vel's verve).
__________________
"Democracy is the worst form of government there is, except for all the others that have been tried." Sir Winston Churchill
Tamerlin is offline  
Old November 13, 2002, 10:19   #24
hexagonian
The Courts of Candle'Bre
Emperor
 
hexagonian's Avatar
 
Local Time: 05:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Smemperor
Posts: 3,405
You will have to manually change the settings in the SAP strategies. If you simply rename my file, the game will crash because there are different governments in Cradle.

As for the changes in Cradle, I made the SEIGE and ATTACK priorities at 800000 in the default STRATEGY and dropped Pillage down to 500000, plus I also went into all of the various STRATEGY_xxx and tweaked the numbers too. As pointed out earlier in the thread, the main thing is to have a clear differentiation between the numbers, so I think that the numbers are sufficiently weighted toward ATTACK and SEIGE. If not, then we bump them up more and drop pillage down further...

Peter, I always assumed the same, which raises the question - Why are those strategies in the file then????

BTW, I'm always assumed that HARRASS refers to the actions taken against unconventionals/diplomats/settlers by military units, but what is HARRASS_CITY???
__________________
Yes, let's be optimistic until we have reason to be otherwise...No, let's be pessimistic until we are forced to do otherwise...Maybe, let's be balanced until we are convinced to do otherwise. -- DrSpike, Skanky Burns, Shogun Gunner
...aisdhieort...dticcok...
hexagonian is offline  
Old November 13, 2002, 13:01   #25
ahenobarb
Prince
 
ahenobarb's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 437
dp
ahenobarb is offline  
Old November 13, 2002, 13:02   #26
ahenobarb
Prince
 
ahenobarb's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 437
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Triggs


Actually this shouldn't be happening. The AI's base strategic states are initialized according to personalities, e.g. Stalin has the Militarist attribute and gets initialized via STRATEGY_MILITARIST_DEFAULT. Also, if they're at war they should be using one of the war strategies.
I would not change your thinking about how the strategies are used just yet. When I made the changes originally (several months ago), I had only one neighbor (one left, that this) on my border. He had a stack of units near my city pillaging its heart out. It didn't attack the city until I changed the values for the default strategy.

So, it was only an experiment with one civ and without the particulars of the situation it's hard to go back and assess what strategy it was using at the time (Default it would seem).

Perhaps it something someone would want to experiment with and report back?

Following up on Hex's comment, how is HARASS_CITY different from PILLAGE? Is HARASSment just non-pillaging interference with the city like attacks by Specials. Lawyer injunctions against one of your cities is real Harassment!
ahenobarb is offline  
Old November 13, 2002, 16:29   #27
Peter Triggs
CTP2 Source Code ProjectCivilization IV Creators
King
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Gone Fishin, Canada
Posts: 1,059
Re: 'Harass'

Here's what Azmel2 told WesW about this:

Quote:
1)What is the difference between the Attack and Harass goals? Also between Harass City and Siege? They seem like the same thing to me.

Richard: Notice that the Attack and Siege goes have different force matching than the harass goals. Harass goals have lower priority and are used to throw units at an enemy to keep them on their toes until a large enough force to attack or seige has been created.
The Harass goals have the same targets but use the Harass force matching conditions which are lower than the Offensive force matching used by the Seige and Attack goals. This means that the AI should be attacking those targets (cities or armies) with weaker forces, i.e. even suicidally. I think the idea was to weaken the defenders (maybe kill a few of them or just lower their health) so that they could be finished off with another attack on the next turn. But I've very rarely seen this happen and haven't had much success with tweaking the data.

IMO, these goals could have been better named. In my mod I've changed them to

Code:
ATTACK_CITY_OFF = SEIGE
ATTACK_CITY_HAR = HARASS_CITY

ATTACK_UNIT_OFF = ATTACK
ATTACK_UNIT_HAR = HARASS
And if anyone is worried that they might have problems getting to sleep tonight, here's "How Does The AI Task It's Units", which I started to write last summer (it's .rtf, open with WordPad):
Attached Files:
Peter Triggs is offline  
Old November 13, 2002, 17:02   #28
Martin Gühmann
staff
Call to Power II Democracy GameCall to Power Democracy GameCTP2 Source Code Project
Super Moderator
 
Martin Gühmann's Avatar
 
Local Time: 12:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Posts: 6,206
I used some parts of Wes' strategies.txt and he gave for all the different strategies differnt PW settings. The result was sooner or later all the AIs used the PW tax of the STRATEGY_SIEGE. I only saw one AI that used the PW tax of STRATEGY_ATTACK.

By the way Peter you should submit your *.rtf file to the directory.

-Martin
__________________
Civ2 military advisor: "No complaints, Sir!"
Martin Gühmann is offline  
Old November 13, 2002, 18:51   #29
Immortal Wombat
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Prince
 
Immortal Wombat's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: in perpetuity
Posts: 4,962
Quote:
By the way Peter you should submit your *.rtf file to the directory
All 3 (or more, what do I know?) of them in fact.
__________________
Concrete, Abstract, or Squoingy?
"I don't believe in giving scripting languages because the only additional power they give users is the power to create bugs." - Mike Breitkreutz, Firaxis
Immortal Wombat is offline  
Old November 13, 2002, 20:01   #30
Peter Triggs
CTP2 Source Code ProjectCivilization IV Creators
King
 
Local Time: 10:47
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Gone Fishin, Canada
Posts: 1,059
3? There's the one above and the Diplomacy one, both of which I intend to clean up and submit when I get a Round Tuit. But I can't think of a third one.
Peter Triggs is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:47.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team