OFFICIAL: Science Slider Poll - READ FIRST POSTS BEFORE VOTING (for real!)

[Arnelos]

We are currently researching Theory of Gravity (this is a placeholder - Magnetism has the same cost)

We currently have 1171 Lytons in the Treasury.

Where should the science slider be placed?

Keep in mind that the science slider can be reduced near the end of research to gain more income without delaying the time until completion of research.

0% (with 1 sci spec): 38 turns; +977 LPT
10%: 22 Turns; +874 LPT
20%: 11 turns; +772 LPT
30%: 8 turns; +660LPT
40%: 6 turns; +555LPT
50%: 5 turns; +435LPT
60%: 4 turns; +347LPT

This is a "true multiple-choice poll" as mentioned in the CoL. The option with the most votes will be considered the victor. I would assume that a tie would mean the executive (with input from the MoE) would decide which of the tied options to take (this is covered in the MoE amendment to the CoL).

[roadcage]

Please THINK before you vote. Sure looks like it costs about 2400 gold to boost the slider and research either tech. This is MUCH more than it would cost to buy. So please be sensible. We have come a long way by challenging the FM and the SMC to keep us in the game while we build infrastructure. Let them continue to do us well.

Don't let the lessons learned over the last several turns go for naught. We have already WASTED 2/3'ds of our GA with Slider Folly.

Vote 0%

[E_T]

A lot of people think that we have won this game but that we just need to wait it out and let time work for us (possibly one of the reasons that a few have left us for the new PTW game). Well, we haven't, not while we still depend on the other Civs for our technology. Paying 1250 Lytons (or more) each for technologies just makes us weaker and OWNED by the tech leaders. We should be Owning them and we will, but not by paying them for their research.

So, yes, we are about 2/3rds through the GA, we have made great strides towards getting to the point of having 60% Science and over 300 income per turn. And we have about 1/3rd left to get some more stuff online.

We have Libraries that will be built shortly. We have Banks that will increase our income, both before and after the GA, that will be built soon (the first one was built in Apolyton just this very turn). And we have Universities that are also to be built very soon.

Or, we can sell all of the Libraries and save that money to buy more techs in the future, because they WILL OWN US AND USE US AS MONEY MACHINES!

Vote for 60%

E_T

[E_T]

A science slider reminder (hey that rhymes, somewhat), that it's best to set the slider for the number of turns that you want to research. Then as you get closer to completing it, you CAN move the slider % down (tweeking it), keeping the same TOC but increasing you income. Then you set the TOC for the next tech, based on how fast you want it and how much money you expect to spend over the time period.

E_T

[Shiber]

We are at least three techs behind (ToG, Mag and Nat.). To remedy this, I suggest that we leave the science slider at 0% while using the extra income to rush additional libraries and universities and buy our way through the tech tree.
Eventually we'll be even with the major players in techs and then we'll be able to start researching on our own. However, as long as we're so far behind in tech that it is futile to research on our own because it is cheaper to just buy the tech.
We should combine this course of action with preparations for a war against Greece and Germany, in any order we choose. This will weaken our opponents and allow us to bypass them in research eventually.

Vote 0%

[DAVOUT]

VERY interesting debate, truly strategic.

Two things :
- The tweaking at the end of the research is just a way to pay a number of beakers as close as possible of the theoretical number; it is not a gain guaranteed in all cases; with a research completed in 4 turns, the number of cases where the tweaking will work is greatly reduced.
- One of the strategical goals of a civ is to build the capacity to complete a research in 4 turns AND to be at least at parity with the AI. We are proposed two opposite paths. It would be easier to vote if the two solutions explain how many turns it takes to reach the goal.

A question for ET : are your figures valid after the GA?

[E_T]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
VERY interesting debate, truly strategic.

Two things :
- The tweaking at the end of the research is just a way to pay a number of beakers as close as possible of the theoretical number; it is not a gain guaranteed in all cases; with a research completed in 4 turns, the number of cases where the tweaking will work is greatly reduced.

Yes that is true, but if you can even tweek it down by one notch, in the last turn (taking the current figures as an example), that will give you 88 Lytons extra that you wouldn't have gotten if it wasn't moved. That would be equivalent to 22 LPT extra over the 4 turn period. Another thing, setting the slider to a steady state position assumes several things, mostly that everything else remains steady state over the time frame. You have several factors that Infulance this: Pop Increase; Improvements being built; WF placements (which could effect trade); Infrastructure placements (roads); number of civs who have the tech and corrution effects. Because all of this is dynamic, you should try to have a dynamic slider setting to take all of this into account.

What I normally do, is once a tech is done, look at how long it will takes to get to the next one and with what ever Income I think I'll need over that time frame. It takes a lot of intuitive thinking ahead, but it's worked for me. I've had times with almost Zero Income, while getting my extra cash from mapwhoring (I do it every 10 turns), but I've come up a lot faster from behind that way, but the main thing is to get the beakers in there.

- One of the strategical goals of a civ is to build the capacity to complete a research in 4 turns AND to be at least at parity with the AI. We are proposed two opposite paths. It would be easier to vote if the two solutions explain how many turns it takes to reach the goal.

A question for ET : are your figures valid after the GA?

Probibly not, and they will even be different in the next turn, because of some of the above mentioned Dynamics. But we already have 5 Libraries that will be completed before the GA is over, with about the same number that will be done shortly afterwards. We also have 5 Markets going up, with one right after the GA. We're working on a Bank in one city (Apolyton just completed it's Bank) and will have a start on some more before the GA is over with. Well also have atleast 2 Universities under construction when the GA is done.

Just to let everyone know, the figures are taken from the slider positions themselves, so they are accurate, as of the time of the save, the actual Income might vary slightly, as City WF placements are adjusted.

E_T

[DAVOUT]

E_T,

At 60% we make 347 LPT during GA, 6 turns before it ends. Can you make a projection of how much we will make in 7 turns? And how long it will take to buy the techs we have not yet ?

[E_T]

Currently, getting the techs from England (results vary from differnt civs, but only within 60-80 Lytons), Theory would be 1245 & Magnetism 1250 Lytons Cash. It's unknown at this time, what the cost for Nationalism would be (Yes, some of them have it too), But I would guess that it will be the same or more. Remember, 18 Lytons Cash = 1 LPT time payment

considering that we get 1 extra trade per worked tile with some trade available, take our whole pop + number of cities and that's the number that we'll lose after the GA. That trade number is then enhanced by various city Improvements and detracted from the effects from corruption. That kind of number is hard to calculate without spending a lot of time to do, which I don't have at the moment.

One thing to remember, is that even though the AI has 20% discount on things, they still are limited to the same 4 turn minumum limit that we are. We can catch up and pass them, but it will take both research and trades that take full advantage of things that help discount a tech, like WM & Luxuries & Resouces, which have a higher value when coupled with a tech deal. We have two luxes that are coming up with Germany in 4 turns and one Lux that's with Rome in 5 turns. We can try to see what kind of discount that we can get for some of the techs then.

E_T

[zeit]

I say we put the slider on 60%, but buy one of those last middle age techs. the reasoning is: we don't want to be 'owned' by the AI, and give him extra cahs- which is the greatest advantage we have over the other Civs, BUT, we also want to save some 1000-1200 lytons that would be spended if we research instead of buying. Hence, a course of action that would end up somewhere in between seems good to me.

[Randolph]

I don't want to re-post my statement from the other thread, but that's what I want. I'm voting "0%" but please interpret that in the intend way.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Can someone tell me if anyone else has ToE (or whatever we are going to research)?

Yes it LOOKS like we are losing cash, but if we can beat the AI to researching the tech, we will gain FAR more cash than we would have through buying the tech cheaper than we can research it through selling it off to everyone else...

And, sorry bout this, I have been away for a while, what are our chances of BUILDING a wonder or two, are we going to any right now? Going to war soon? I know we built an army, are we going to use it? sorry, probably not the best place for those questions, but some may influence my decision.

[Shiber]

PEOPLE - look at the numbers!
It would cost us roughly 2,500 lytons to research Theory of Gravity on our own, or we could buy it from Greece for 1,400 lytons. We can then take the remaining 1,100 lytons and invest them in libraries and universities!!
Why do you insist on wasting so much money?? Just because a few people panicked after the last turnchat it doesn't mean we have to throw money away.

[UnOrthOdOx]

So, people HAVE the tech?

Is there anything we CAN research that no one has? Unless there is, it makes no sense to increase funding, just buy it.

[Shiber]

I'm afraid there aren't any techs that noone has yet and we can research.

[roadcage]

ToG and Mag are both required for era advancement. We can study no others. Both are held by all of the big 4. We can either buy or fight. Research is not a viable alternative (yet).

[Arnelos]

Unortho,

Regarding the construction of wonders, we now have a GL. The poll conducting on what to do with him was passed clearly in favor of making our first army, however.

[Aggie]

I call upon ALL people to vote for 0% it is just iresponsible to throw away money like this.
Aggie

[E_T]

How about a compramise solution to the immeadiate issue. Two Luxuries come up for renegotiation in 4 turns, with Germany. We Set the slider to 60% for the next 4 turns and get Theory. FAM Togas can then use the Luxes and a newly collected WM to get Magnetism at a discount. Then we are in the Industruial Age and starting on the First Industrial techs (what ever is decided by Thud).

In the 4 turns that we have between then and now, we work on upgrading our Military. We can have almost all of our Offensive forces upgraded in that time and the last 3 spearmen & 1 pikemen, too. We have 1171 in Treasury and 347LPT (at 60%) income. Every turn, upgrade 2 WC's and Spearmen/Pikemen at 320 (WC's & Spear) and 300 for the WC/Pike. That will get all of our WC's upgraded except for 1 (on Uber Island and doesn't need it unless facing an emergency). THat would also leave just 11 pikemen to be upgraded and some could be done at that time. We will still be having extra money added to our Treasury.

I won't have any big outlays planned until turn 5 and after (first would be 116L for Site 3 City Temple) and some of them could be delayed even further.

Then we can truly see what the next age would cost us and decide at that point, during chat, to have it set at whatever we will need to set it at. And after the GA is done, we can fully reexamine this full issue again.

E_T

[Aggie]

The problem ET is that I see nothing gained by moving the slider up except that we keep money from the AI, but we are more efficient at spending so even with the advantage it has we win. The only other thing is that it will let us do our our research. But unless there is real gain I see no purpose to spend the money towards science.
Aggie

[Sheik]

0%

Why research Theory of Gravity when you can buy it for less? Unless we are going to research something no one has there is no point wasting the money to research. Shiber is right, we need to invest and not be wasting our money on useless research.

[E_T]

Originally posted by Aggie
The problem ET is that I see nothing gained by moving the slider up except that we keep money from the AI, but we are more efficient at spending so even with the advantage it has we win. The only other thing is that it will let us do our our research. But unless there is real gain I see no purpose to spend the money towards science.
Aggie

So, lets say that over the next 20 turns, we buy 8 techs from the AI (3 now - Theory, Mag & Nat and that with our extra money, they can research at 4 turns per tech and gets 5 new techs). Assuming 1300L for each (average), thats 10,400 over the 20 turns that we would have to pay or 520 LPT equivalant. At that point, we HAVE to keep the slider at 0% to pay the AI, because we will have exhausted our Ready cash and will be paying some significant LPT to them.

WE NEED TO WEAN OURSELVES FROM THE AI and now is the time to really start. We can even find some form of blend of some of our own research and buying some to keep up, but we need to make this kind of decision in the next few gameplayes. So we might be behind at first, we'll catch up and surpass.

The compramise that I had proposed for getting theory in 4 turns via research and buying Mag with 2 Luxes from Germany (when renegotiated in 4 tuns, same time) can at least get us into the Industrual age (at a greatly reduced cost) and we can then reexamine our options then and after the GA is over in 6 turns.

E_T

[Shiber]

I propose a runoff between 0% and 60%.

[joncnunn]

0% until it becomes cheaper to resarch ourselves compared to buying.

That's not going to be the case until we enter the Industrial Age.

[Hot Mustard]

I'm in shock here people! I can't believe this poll is tied and so many people just don't get it.

We MUST have scientific independance from the AI.

If we continue to buy from the AI and do not produce any research ourselves, we hurt ourselves and help them. More money for them means:
- more improvements
- more units
- greater ease of continued research
- ability to buy things from other AI civs

Stop looking at the numbers people - and start thinking about the power we are handing the AI every time we buy tech.

[joncnunn]

But it costs us a 50% premimum to research the techs compared to just buying them.

The deals can be in the form of GPT so that they don't get a mass infusion of cash.

[Arnelos]

Man... I'm really not looking forward to breaking the tie with a decision one way or the other

That said, I'll just do it like I had to during the turnchat if necessary. I think the poll probably will not END in the tie ( ), but if it does, so be it.

[Shiber]

Again I propose a runoff between 0% and 60%.

[E_T]

We have still to here from FAM Togas about his thoughts on this issue, as he will be the one to set up any tech trades, either completely buying them or with my compromise solution.

E_T

[Shiber]

E_T, setting the slider at 60% and buying Mag. is in no way a compromise.