War Academy: Attack the tech leaders

[Shiber]

Yes, that's right - attack the tech leaders.
We have high hopes for being the leaders in tech, but unfortunately, it looks as though these hopes will not become a reality until late in the industrial age.
In addition to building additional libraries, universities, marketplaces and banks thus improving our research capabilities we must also damage those of others in order to achieve our goals!!
Our possibilities are many. To put it straight, we need to attack Greece, Germany, England and Rome by any order and minimize their ability to research on their own (but not necessarily annex them, especially in Rome's case).
We can attack Greece, Germany or England (preferably England first, since they're the weakest, it seems) by land using our cavalries and blitz through their territory, taking a lot of river land and reducing their research capabilities by 30% to 40% in just 5 turns.
We can attack Rome by sea (or by land if we sign a RoP with Russia, but that's somewhat risky) and shave off the part of their territory that is adjacent to the Iroquois or Babylonian territory and then gift it to the Iroquois or the Babylonians. That territory will not do much good in our hands due to corruption and waste, but the Iroquois and Babylonians will be able to make good use of it, including holding off the foul Romans.

Discuss!

[UnOrthOdOx]

Yes, we must slow them down to speed us up! I wouldn't be TOO awful concerned with Rome, though. We take out a chunk of Germany and Greece, we should be able to out research them. Focus on what is close, there is no point in attacking Rome right now. Slow England, Slow Greece, Destroy (or nearly) Germany, IMO.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Yes, we must slow them down to speed us up!

I believe you said this once before when you stated that what's important is not our absolute rate of scientific progress but our relative rate of scientific progress.

[UnOrthOdOx]

That's right, It doesn't matter if we can only research a new tech every 10 turns if it takes the AI 12 turns to do it. We still beat them to it, and can whore it out.

Waging war on them also provides us an opportunity to effect their current research by inflicting Weariness (if we choose to prolong the war, think what an alliance with the Aztecs(and whomever else we wish) against Germany and/or Greece could accomplish), slow their wonder building, or make them divert funds to the war effort. Weariness for us is less of a problem as we are religious, and can get out of it if we need.

[E_T]

As part of this discussion, we need to look at what our objectives would be, i,e, what do we want? Here are the "Big 4".

Germany - 1 Science Wonder that is within spitting distance of our border (Berlin). They appear to be the main leaders in Tech, by the fact that they are getting money from the other Civ's. If they get to Motarized transport before we do, we could look at a possible Panzer Blitz against us after that. If thay are reduce, they could become a client state and any Panzers won't be a problem, because we would be able to out produce them with regular tanks. They are currently building NU, but not in a city that could beat the others. Thaking Berlin, Stutgart, Hamburg, Cologne, Hannover & Frankfort would completely eliminate whatever tech lead that they could have and still leave them with enough (5 cities) to pay us for our techs. If we needed to, we could Raze Nurumburg & Frankfurt, to remeove thier cultureal pressure. Germany, or someone else could rebuild on those sites. We could also raze those cities at sometime in the future, to spank the Germans, if they did want to get frisky with Panzers against us.

England - They have been lagging in 2nd or third place behind Germany, although they have come up from 4th place to this position, due to a large exploration fleet for maps. They have NV in Nottingham, which will be on the list. At quick glance, London looks to be in the lead to building NU. If we want that Science Wonder, we will have to take it from someone else, and I say it will be a really valid reason TOBE at war with them . We might want to wait until they are finished with it before taking it from them (I'll try to have an estimate of when they will complete NU within the week). We should look to taking London, Oxford, Warwick, York, Hastings, Nottingham, Coventry & Norwich. This would leave them with 5 cities, too. Liz would be no threat to us again and could become Aggie's maid.

Rome - THey are only in second place by the fact that they have been able to pay Germany every time they get a new tech. Take out Germanies tech lead, you hinder Rome's money making machine,which would have to switch to Science to compensate. But, if we becore the tech leader, it shows that they are willing to pay to be at the top. We are slated to take just a couple of their cities and they are too far away at this current time to be of any use to us. We might get some cities and possible a bit of cash and tech, but not really likely. We should look to Roman land after the Palace has been moved. They have JSB, which would help us out with happiness, but we'll only need it in the later game.

Greece - They currently are the "runt" of the Big 4. They have been laging behind the others by as little as 3 turns and as much as 5. We have actually been ahead of them for a breif period. They are apparently building up there cash and letting the price drop a bit before getting the techs from someone else, most likely from either Rome or England. So, again taking down the top leader would require them on relying more in thier or research or on the other two. Yes, a number of thier cities a messing up our cultural funch-way (?SP), but are keeping thier culture at bay with ours. This is another Civ that we should go after, after the Palace has been moved, otherwise, any new cities would be mostly corrupt and draining (i.e. rushes) on our economy to bring up to snuff. If they do get involved in an alliance or MPP against us, we could spank them back a bit an take some of the cities that are in our area. Only a few of these before the Palace move would not be that detrimental, but should only be an option only if were attacked by them.

Which ever we decide to have at, we need to keep in mind that ATLEAST ONE of the other big 4 and maybe the Aztecs might get involed against us, so we need to have proper defensive and reserve offensive forces available to fight them off. THese aren't France or America that we are talking about, so be warned.

E_T

[roadcage]

Yes! We must attack! Greece, Germany, England, it doesn't matter in a big picture strategic sense. Each has the techs we crave. However, short term tactics will help us choose our next bloodmeal.

We simply must take atleast 2 of the 4 AI engines off of the current tech.

Khufu awaits instruction. Let him complete his holy quest.

I hereby formally begin the process of seeking membership in the War Academy.

roadcage

[Shiber]

E_T has convinced me that our next target should be Germany because Germany is the tech leader and because we want to nail them before they get Panzers.
As soon as the SMC (this or next term) approves we must prepare for a cavalry blitz against Germany and take Berlin, Stutgart, Hamburg, Cologne, Hannover and Frankfort, as E_T said. This should be top priority!

[UnOrthOdOx]

Again, we must consider allies. Rest assured that Germany WILL pull someone else in, they have plenty of resources to do so. Perhaps it would be in our best interest to ally up first, as soon as we declare war. Even if it only proves a minor distraction, it will be to our advantage. I would suggest the Aztecs and/or Greece as allies, but leave out England in hopes of Germany pulling them in against us so that we can have their wonders as well.

Any other allies Germany can get do not matter much other than trading, as they will be forced to come through the narrow pass we now hold, or via boat, and we all know how adept the AI is at using naval assaults...

And besides all the talk of Science, I, PERSONALLY, will never forget that Bismark attempted to stab ME in the back when I made the first assault on Paris...Let Bismark lay cowering in a corner with his friend Xerxes for the dishonorable actions he has taken against Apolytonia!!!

[Shiber]

I dunno about an alliance. You have to commit to 20 turns in an alliance and we're more into 5-7 turns blitzes. Given the imminent switch to Democracy, it will be even more important that we limit the war to a short period.

[roadcage]

The automatic declaration part of Aliances last 20 turns. Once the war begins, you need to delay peace until your partner in crime has settled. And in any event, it is just a rep hit. Our rep is so bad already it really doesn't matter.

[ruby_maser]

If Germany is the tech leader, it stands to reason that it is the one who is proliferating knowledge all over the place, giving techs away to its AI buddies while keeping us in the dark ages.

We must over-prepare for an attack though. It isn't enough to assume that the AI will sue for peace in 5-7 turns. Afterall, we aren't talking about attacking a wounded duck; Germany has the potential to draw in allies against us.

I don't know if we can go this road alone. I think eventually we will have to make tough decisions about the possibility of allying ourselves with others. We have an extremely unmanagable northern border to defend if, say, Germany was able to persuade Greece and England to attack us. We would immediately have spread ourselves too thin and spend the remainder of the war in defense of the homeland and looking for a way out.

The age of the MPP and trade embargoes is coming quickly. If we want to prune a neighbor back to give us a boost, it had better be soon as the likelihood of financial loss and costly protracted war is only growing.

[Shiber]

On the contrary - our rep is flawless. We've never broken a treaty in our entire game history. The AIs hate us only because we're so damn big and powerful, and maaaaybe because we eliminated a civ or two...
In any case, the importance of our reputation is not to be disregarded. Just break one treaty and see if anyone wants to ally with us again in the next 100 turns.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Democracy is for peace, simply don't switch till this is over. It is perfectly feasable to carry out a 20 turn offensive war while maintaining a Republic with a few sacrifices (my personal record was 68 turns of OFFENSIVE war in Republic until the government collapsed even though I had NO cities in disorder at the time...(Monarch Difficulty)), but I would suggest a preemptive switch to Monarchy. Even if we Blitz Germany and sue in 5-7 turns, we will be contending with the aftermath of that, ie, however many allies Germany has brought in. Germany has enough techs to buy the lesser developed nations, and enough cash to pursuade the advanced nations (not that they need a whole lot of pursuasion). It would be better to bring a few on our side first.

[Shiber]

With 7 luxuries, marketplaces in all our large cities, cathedrals and The Sistine Chapel I think we can continue the war while holding off war weariness for longer than enough to make Bismarck beg for mercy.

[roadcage]

3 of those luxes are trades. When do they expire?

[Shiber]

You've got a good point there. We might lose some of our imported luxuries due to alliances and trade embargoes. Even though, I still think we can make it through. We may have to build colosseums in our large cities if the war turns out to be longer than we expected, but we'll make it through.
I believe that the chances of us losing all three of our imported luxuries are slim, and even if we do we'd still be able to buy ivory from either Rome or Greece, provided that we're not in war or trade embargo with both.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I have no doubt we can take care of Bismark. Let's say we go to war with them, after 3 turns, he allies with England. We end the war with Germany at 5 turns, but have only been at war with England for 2, they won't talk to us, they then bring in the Aztecs, we end war with England at 5 turns, but Aztecs wont talk...they ally with Greece....see how it can go? IIRC, Weariness doesn't care WHO you are fighting, just htat you ARE fighting. We may individually war with these for 5-7 turns each, and easily end up with 20 turns of war...

Getting allies DOES commit us to 20 turns. It also limits who Bismark can get on his side, secures the trades with those we are allied with, and improves (albeit temporarily) our relations with those nations.

[History Guy]

(Standing atop capitol building, waving Apolytonian flag)

Onward! Onward to victory! For your wives, for your sisters, for your sweethearts, for old Apolytonia!

The time has come (once again), to strike, and strike we must. I suggest that right now, we go after the old enemy, Bismarck. Bismarck will fall easily, I think, though he will drag in others for war. I do not think, though, that anyone can come into this war and beat us now, however, we are simply far too powerful for that. Instead, Bismarck will be totally whipped, and we will then proceed to chew up anyone else who he's called in.

Then, we must hit Greece. Take them both out, totally.

[E_T]

Another thing to consider is that WW works differntly when we declare and when someone else declare against us. The two will actually balance each out for a time. This actually gives us a few more turns to fight without any problems.

E_T

[ruby_maser]

If only we had real espionage up and running. We could deliberately screw up a mission to try and get a war declared against us. That would prevent war weariness for awhile. Plus, if we chose to get a MPP with another nation, they would not have a choice as to whether to come to our aid or not; whereas, with us being the aggressors, they can sit back and wait until the enemy attacks us on our home soil.

[mrmitchell]

Just noticed, I skipped thru thread so do not know if anyone else noticed:

The GREG plan.
Greece/Germany, Rome, England, Greece/Germany.

[Aggie]

As Smc and our next President I hereby declare our intention is war against germany. We must prepare for this and steps are already being executed to secure the required forces. This war will take place when we have bought all possible techs and have 20 calvary to throw into battle. It will be bloody since we will be fighting riflemen. but we can swarm over and take many cities quickly, we can either raze these cities or hold them,
Aggie

[ruby_maser]

I would suggest, humbly of course , more than twenty calvary. Twenty seems the bare minimum for a situation that may lead to an alliance against us.

I would hope for a poll on the matter to see where the nation stands concerning the amount of preparation that should be invested in a plan as risky as this.

But I'm all for it in the long run

[Aggie]

The 20 calvary are just for the point of attack, other forces will be available elsewhere.
Aggie

[Harovan]

Finally a new War Academy thread . Good work, Shiber and everyone. And I think your plans are great.

[Meshelic]

Germany it is? Well then, I'd rather humbly suggest to our SMC and probable future President that we deploy more than 20 cavalry. Germany is a fortress, much stronger than the Persians were, the French were, and are certainly more powerful than the Greeks and English, I daresay combined.... and really the only power that stands in our way of controlling the entire head of the continent.

If this is to garner public support it should begin now. To have all the ministers, the people and etc to agree to move towards preemptive war could be a long task (although I admit it has been done in the past, it has not been done recently with a foe of this power).

You have the full support of the Hawks! May Bismarck forever languish as the "Presidential Kicking Stool".

[roadcage]

Operation canyontree

German situation

Outstanding deals trade datum 940 ab
(4)Dyes & Incense
(13) Peace Treaty

Known Strategic resources
1 horse (within explorer range)
2 iron (1 reverts to us with Hamburg)
2 saltpeter (1 within explorer range)

Future Strategic resources
rubber (doubtful, Germany has no jungle)
coal (probable, no jungle but lots of montains and hills)

Tentative declaration 1070 ab
with immediate attack

Pre attack Diplomacy
Allow Dyes & Incense to run (do not re-negotiate)
Negotiate MPP with as many of following as practical
Greece
England
Aztecs

Pre Attack infrastructure
road required north then northeast from Seeburg across mountain to hills
road required north of New York

Basic plan:
10 suicide explorers (will recieve congressinal banana of honor)
position to achieve specified pillaging targets.
3 Battlegroups of Cavalry supported position for targets

1st turn
10 explorers
5 pillage squares around Berlin within range
1 pilage the horse resource
1 pillage the saltpeter nw of Cologne
(the iron east of Hamburg should become ours without pillaging)
3 see below
Cavalry Battlegroup Alpha moves from Seeburg staging across proposed road
and attacking Hamburg immediate
Muskets/?Riflemen?, (less 1) staged on hill with 2nd turn explorers relieve the Cavalry in Hamburg
cover the wounded Cavalry just outside Hamburg
Remaining Musket/?Rifleman? and cannon advance so as to relieve Bravo in Frankfurt next turn.
Remaining explorers advance to Hamburg for next turn deployment
Cavalry Battlegroups Bravo and Charlie move from New York staging across proposed road
ending turn on mountain East of Frankfurt (in range of Frankfurt and Hanover)
2nd turn
explorers in Hamburg take out remaining tiles around Berlin
any surviving explorers from turn 1 take out roads of opportunity furthur north
with 1st priority to saltpeter between Berlin and Leipzig.
Cavalry Battle Group Bravo attacks and sacks Hanover
all retiring to the mountain
Cavalry Battlegroup Charlie attacks and captures Frankfurt.
all occupying Frankfurt
Musket and cannon from Battle Group Alpha relieves Cavalry in Frankfurt
Serious wounded in Battlegroup Alpha retire to Hamburg
Light wounded and healthy in Battlegroup Alpha stage to Frankfurt

Situation after 2 turns

Berlin isolated
only remaining resource is iron West of Heidelburg, but not connected to capitol
Hanover sacked
Frankfurt captured now staging for next target (?Leipzig?)
Hamburg captured now healing Cavalry.

Do not rush to take Berlin! It should go into disorder when it looses all luxurys.
Let them suffer for a while.

That's as far as I can visualize it. Perhaps one of the real generals can extend to 4 or 5 turns.
Also unclear to me which battlegroup should be led by Khufu's Army.
And someone needs to estimnate the Cavalry required. My gut feeling is around 10 for each Battlegroup plus Khufu.

respectfully submitted
ssgt roadcage (retired)

[E_T]

Originally posted by roadcage
Operation canyontree

German situation

Outstanding deals trade datum 940 ab
(4)Dyes & Incense
(13) Peace Treaty

Known Strategic resources
1 horse (within explorer range)
2 iron (1 reverts to us with Hamburg)
2 saltpeter (1 within explorer range)

Future Strategic resources
rubber (doubtful, Germany has no jungle)
coal (probable, no jungle but lots of montains and hills)

Tentative declaration 1070 ab
with immediate attack

Nice plan, but the might be one Beerstein in it. FAM Togas might want to use the Dye & Incense Renegotiations to get technologies (20 additional turns). Further, the current peace deal has LPT attached and Germany won't let that go without renegoting it to Zero. So add 20 turns to your estimations. BUT, this WILL allow us to really be prepaired for others to go against us and to have a better offensive & bombardment force to use against them all.

E_T

[roadcage]

13 turn delay is probably maximum that this plan can stand. It really should be sooner but our rep....

If it were pushed out another 20 turns, then the plan would have to be re-evaluated in light of Infantry, Tanks and Panzers.

Fortunately I think our jungle start will have us controlling almost all rubber on the main continent. Hence Germany will not be able to field Infantry or it's UU. We on the otherhand may or may not have oil for our Tanks.

And the basic plan assumed the 3 move capability of Cavalry and would have to be significantly revised for 2 move Tanks.

But I never claimned it was a finished plan, just a possible beginning of one.

ssgt roadcage (retired)

[Kloreep]

I doubt Tanks will be here anytime soon, even with a twenty turn delay. It seems to me there's always a major speed-up in tech at the end of an age; but at the beginning of one, most civs meet the roadbump of a jump in beaker costs.

I'd say it's pretty likely they'll have Infantry as soon as Replacable Parts comes around, though. Somebody is gonna have some spare rubber burning a hole in their pocket, and Germany's tech lead means they'll easily be able to pay for it.