Why, oh why does the poor AI...

[Lucilla]

Originally posted by ducki

NEVER and ALWAYS are extremely radical decisions ...

A solution could be, to change the values for NEVER and ALWAYS to SELDOM and VERY OFTEN and / or to introduce 1 or 2 extra levels inbetween in this list.
This would make it possible to have more variety between the civs without unbalancing the game.

[player1]

By the way, there are some nevers.

Like never building Longbowmen after getting Riflemen (building offense Riflemen instead).

There is supposed to be some unit value.
If all those unit values are similar all those units will be built.

But if some unit has much lower value then other, it won't be built at all.

Now, how are these values are calculated in mystery to me.
(Soren add AI value calculator to next version of Editor)

[alexman]

Soren, anything you can tell us about the AI in 1.14f?

Does the AI still build guerillas when it has rubber?
Does the AI still irrigate grassland in Despotism?
Does the AI still try to grow its unhappy cities?
Does the AI still build settlers when the city is too small?
Any changes in build priorities?
Any changes in research priorities?

[ducki]

Originally posted by alexman
Soren, anything you can tell us about the AI in 1.14f?

Does the AI still irrigate grassland in Despotism?
Does the AI still try to grow its unhappy cities?

From my latest game - it looks like a human did it, but I promise it's the AI (with the AU Mod - could thataffect this?

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by ducki


From my latest game - it looks like a human did it, but I promise it's the AI (with the AU Mod - could thataffect this?

ah, my question in the other thread is thus answered.

one more question: is this game with 1.14f? or did you start it before you patched? ..... just wondering if Soren did any AI tweaks (y'know, just minor ones ) in the patch or if the mod can take the praise for this AI performance.

[Theseus]

Hooray!!

[ducki]

This is a clean 1.14f fresh start game with the AU-PtW mod on Regent.

Scary, especially considering there's another AI that's either 1 turn ahead or 1 turn behind Xerxes.

Spooky.

[Theseus]

I'm still playing AU 205, starting at 1.04 and upgrading to mid-game... Persia and Aztecs (!) are kicking ass.

[Harovan]

Looks amazing! If this process continues, we'll all have to drop to Regent or Warlord, and getting our butt kicked at Monarch, I guess .

[ducki]

I'm not sure it's that good Sir Ralph, but it does look good enough to at least keep up with or surpass the "average" human.

I'll have to try a non-AU game and see if they still improve tiles this well.

I am truly shocked.

[ducki]

Here's the current save if anyone wants to do a bunch of City Investigations on the AI.

Again, PtW, 1.14f, AU-PtW mod.
At least I think this is the right one.

If anyone wants it, I'll post the 4000BC auto if it's still in there.

This one's from 530BC.

[alexman]

Just to confirm that with 1.14f the AI no longer irrigates grassland under despotism. One exception, and thank God (a.k.a. Soren) Firaxis thought of it, is to bring irrigation to other, non-grassland tiles that would have otherwise had no access to fresh water, and grassland tiles that actually benefit from the irrigation (wheat and cattle).

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by ducki
This is a clean 1.14f fresh start game with the AU-PtW mod on Regent.

Scary, especially considering there's another AI that's either 1 turn ahead or 1 turn behind Xerxes.

Spooky.

Is it possible that "Action: Added 'Emphasize Production' to all AI civilizations"* applies not only to builds, but also to the mining/irrigation equation??

*AU Mod 1.11, Changes to AI

[player1]

I think that 'Emphasize Production' only applies to the way how are laborers placed in city screen.

[Harovan]

I made a series of short 1.14f tests yesterday, this way: I added Settlers and Workers as "Build sometimes" to the city governor, enabled it and allowed it to manage moods, emphasize production and manage the build queue, and set my worker on automated. That should nearly be what the AI does.

Results:

Worker: If a luxury is in the city radius, the worker tries to connect it. If not and a shielded grassland is there, the worker mines it . If after the first expanding a luxury is available, it will be connected. After the worker made 2-3 improved tiles for the capital, it starts to chop forest or to clear jungle around the capital. This I didn't like much, because at this time usually a 2nd or even 3rd city is founded and a trade network would be better, even more if we have a luxury. And it is unnecessary to improve more than 2-3 tiles for a city, which doesn't grow much above size 3 due to Settler builds.

City governor: Build 2 Warriors and then switch to Settler. It doesn't yet care, if there's enough food surplus to grow to size 3 before the Settler is ready. After Bronze Working, it chooses 2 Spearmen instead of 2 Warriors. As soon as a wonder becomes available, build it in the next city that completes a build.

[Minmaster]

yea i quite dont understand why the AI produces gureilla when it has rubber and can produce infantry!

[Catt]

I played some Sunday (a new game), using PTW and standard rules. Didn't grab any screenshots, but I was pleased to see that the AI will indeed mine grasslands (and avoid irrigating unless creating a chain of irrigated tiles in order to reach a plains area).

I was also very pleased to see that the AI will come back later and irrigate grasslands (once out of despotism) that had previously been mined if additional food is needed in order to grow the city and work hills / mountains.

Soren!

Catt

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Catt
I played some Sunday (a new game), using PTW and standard rules. Didn't grab any screenshots, but I was pleased to see that the AI will indeed mine grasslands (and avoid irrigating unless creating a chain of irrigated tiles in order to reach a plains area).

I was also very pleased to see that the AI will come back later and irrigate grasslands (once out of despotism) that had previously been mined if additional food is needed in order to grow the city and work hills / mountains.

Soren!

Catt

well, be sure to thank yourselves. If there wasn't such high interest in Civ 3 (especially with threads like this) a year after its release, I wouldn't be able to tweak with the AI.

[FrustratedPoet]

1.14 sounds awesome! hopefully we won't have to wait long for it on this side of the pond.

[joncnunn]

Any word on weather the buy a tech from the AI while they have a stack of units in your territory for free via a pure GPT deal exploit was fixed under 1.14f or not?

(Basically, you buy them out of techs in a pure GPT deal and then tell them to get out or declare war, with them of course picking war under both 1.29f Civ III and 1.04f PTW)

The fix would be something like if the AI is planning on having a war against someone (which it obviously is if a stack of units are inside enemy territory), then it shouldn't accept any deals that sell a tech for GPT or lxuary to that person, but only accept up full up front payment of gold for the tech from that person.

The other half of the fix is for it to consider the amount of gold currently being received that would cancel out if a war broke out when picking a target.

[joncnunn]

I'm not sure if this was fixed or not in PTW, but in Civ III, sometimes you could frighten a Transport with units on board into returning to its' territory prior to dropping off it's units by killing the escort & merely damaging the transport when it should have kept on going and dropped off its military units in your territory.

And on the same topic, the AI usually only carrys enough troops in an oveaseas invasion to take out a small island (1 to 3 cities), and doesn't seem to build enough naval transports to carry enough military units to succesfully take over a good size chuck of a bigger landmass.

[Arrian]

I haven't really been paying enough attention, but the stuff on page 4 may explain why I was stuggling to keep my head above water on Monarch as the Ottomans last night. I was playing "builder" style, and having a tough time. I cannot gain, let alone hold, a tech lead, no matter what I research. For the first time in a long time, an AI civ beat me to banking.

I got the Colossus, Great Library, Sistine and Bachs. I lost Sun Tzu, Leos, Copernicus, and may lose Smiths' and Newton. I never even had a shot at the HG. I'm barely #1 in score, and only have access to saltpeter for my UU because Spain decided to beat the tar out of Germany, (I actually gave Bismarck chivalry in the hopes he could stop the bleeding, but alas he was unable) and left a gap (Berlin razed) for me to sneak in a settler. Yikes! Then again, the start wasn't up to my usual lofty standards (I spent a lot of time clearing jungle) and I have yet to unleash my Siphai (I will have roughly 30 of them). The AI research is such, however, that I fear those Siphai will encounter riflemen almost immediately. I may not play that one out, actually. I'm still experimenting... trying to get a feel for PTW.

It just feels harder, ya know?

-Arrian

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by Arrian

It just feels harder, ya know?

-Arrian

you were all getting too damn good at this game anyway.

[Catt]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Any word on weather the buy a tech from the AI while they have a stack of units in your territory for free via a pure GPT deal exploit was fixed under 1.14f or not?

I tested this from a saved game yesterday, and the exploit is still available. Happily though, this AI deficiency is easily avoided (unlike some of the others in this thread) -- you need simply resolve not to use the exploit!

I'm not sure if this was fixed or not in PTW, but in Civ III, sometimes you could frighten a Transport with units on board into returning to its' territory prior to dropping off it's units by killing the escort & merely damaging the transport when it should have kept on going and dropped off its military units in your territory.

I think Firaxis partly fixed this in 1.29f, and I haven't seen a difference in PTW.

I say "partly fixed" because (1) I'm pretty sure that if you kill an escort, the transport will sit motionless until a new escort arrives, but, on the good side, (2) even wounded escorts and wounded transports frequently complete their voyage and drop off troops (before 1.29f, it seemed that "chipping the paint" -- i.e., taking off 1 HP -- was enough to make a transport head for port).

And on the same topic, the AI usually only carrys enough troops in an oveaseas invasion to take out a small island (1 to 3 cities), and doesn't seem to build enough naval transports to carry enough military units to succesfully take over a good size chuck of a bigger landmass.

I think this is more a matter of happenstance and civ-specific attributes than pure AI deficiency (although I agree that a grander "vision" of an invasion is needed to avoid the peacemeal amphib approach).

In my most recent game (PTW 1.14f) the English foolishly declared war and thereby "donated" to me the several cities they had established on my landmass. But they then put up a credible inter-continental assault. At one point I counted eight galleons, each escorted by Man-O-Wars or ironclads, off my coastlines, and each galleon that unloaded carried a full complememnt of up-to-date troops -- usually a pair of riflemen and a pair of cavalry, sometimes 3 cavalry (and only very rarely a longbowman). I made peace before all had a chance to land, but even before the looming 8-galleon invasion, I did experience 3-galleon's worth of forces (12 units) unloading simultaneously.

I don't know what causes the better invasions, but it sure seems to me to be somewhat fluky rather than a result of coded tactical behaviors.

Catt

[Catt]

Originally posted by Arrian
It just feels harder, ya know?

It is harder. Not sure why, exactly, but I feel it in my bones .

I felt like it was a mite harder under 1.04f -- I think 1.14f could make it even more so.

Must avoid work . . . must sneak PTW play time . . .

Catt

[joncnunn]

3 Galleons landing all at the same time is much improved from Civ III (1.29f.) I don't have PTW yet, and I have yet to see the AI land more than 1 naval transport in a turn so the largest invasion I've seen is 8 Infentry from a Transport during the Industrial era prior to tanks.

[Theseus]

I haven;t gotten invaded in AU 205 yet, but the naval attacks are ridiculous.

How would you like to see 3 Battleship / Carrier pairs show up next to your capitol?!!

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Theseus
...
How would you like to see 3 Battleship / Carrier pairs show up next to your capitol?!!

So how are those interceptors working out?
(Assuming you have techs/resources)

[Theseus]

I'm a little bit behind, and am scrambling to get Fighters up... it sucks.

BTW, Soren, both thank you and you're welcome. Thanks for sticking around.

[Arrian]

I played a new game as the Ottomans (Monarch still) last night, and this time made sure I triggered my GA by building the HG (already had the GL). Lost the Colossus by 1 turn, which may have saved me. That city proceeded to build the GL and then the HG (lost the G. Lighthouse). I was "buildmongering" this time, instead of straight peaceful building. I fended off a Zulu attack (they hit me JUST as I was preparing my assault on Persia, which really pissed me off. I had half a mind to go after them for real, but restrained myself and merely razed two cities). Persia took a beating, losing their three core cities, inflicting only minimal losses on me. I then just couldn't pass up an opportunity to nail two Spanish settler pairs that were in my territory. A barb knocked on of the escorts (an archer) to 1hp, and I had an elite horsie handy.... so I gained four workers. I fended off the counterattack and am now doing just fine - a republican golden age now finished, with a FP in Persopolis, the Sistine, Leo's in 6, and an outside (unlikely) shot at Sun Tzu, which will probably become Bach.

The only scary part is the Mongols. They are out there somewhere, and have built the Colossus, Pyramids and Great Lighthouse in their capitol. I suppose that shouldn't worry me, as they must not have any other improvements in there, and the city is only a size 6, but damn!

Anyway, that game should be a relatively comfortable win (I need to wipe out my neighbors soon, though, in order to ensure the Arrian Deception. Persia first, then Spain, then Zululand, I think... maybe P, Z, then S). If I play the game again. I have a developed a habit of not finishing games.

-Arrian