Election: Domestic Minister (term 6)

[notyoueither]

Candidates
E_T
GhengisFarb

Closes in 3 days. 72 hours from this post.

Added: Campaign Thread

[Arnelos]

Candidates... you need to post in the campaign thread more than a one-sentence answer

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Arnelos
Candidates... you need to post in the campaign thread more than a one-sentence answer

Why? Is that in the NewCon somewhere?

Posted another sentence or two already.

[Arnelos]

No, it's not in the constitution (either of them) anywhere.

However, it does seem to be a standard custom for Apolyton voters to have SOME IDEA what the two candidates stand for on the various issues when voting. Many voters look in the campaign threads to find this information. I'd think you, having been here SO LONG, would know that intuitively

However, I really like the post you have provided now in the Domestic Minister thread - so no worries

[GhengisFarb™]

Now see what you made me do? I was winning until I posted more than one sentence in the campaign thread. Within a space of 3 minutes after posting a plan E_T got 6 votes.

I knew I should've kept my mouth shut.

[Arnelos]

I hardly believe that E_T's pickup in votes had anything to do with you posting your information... in fact, we SHOULD see your vote tally rise now that you've posted something and we're still waiting on E_T

(or, if your theory is correct, you'll get a bunch of votes when E_T posts )

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Arnelos
I hardly believe that E_T's pickup in votes had anything to do with you posting your information... in fact, we SHOULD see your vote tally rise now that you've posted something and we're still waiting on E_T

(or, if your theory is correct, you'll get a bunch of votes when E_T posts )

Wrong, a minute later he got 2 more votes.

I better go erase my comments in the campaign thread................

[Arnelos]

You just picked up 2 votes GhengisFarb

[E_T]

Originally posted by Arnelos
Candidates... you need to post in the campaign thread more than a one-sentence answer

I just had my first posting in the campaign thread here. I have some other stuff I'll be posting in a little while.

E_T

[Meshelic]

I noticed in my own campaign for IE Minister last term that the more I said "ooh almost caught up in votes" I almost always would, but everytime I said "ooh it looks like I've taken the lead..." then everyone voted for Jonny. It was kind of interesting to see the voter response before my own eyes...

[Arnelos]

E_T has now posted some VERY EXTENSIVE information about what he'd like to do as Domestic Minister.

Sounds like we can now compare the two plans and vote!

[nz_upy]

Vote for the little guy......But I want those spreadsheets...and its sooo close...

[E_T]

I have my second campain post here, and I'll post the rest tomorrow, as it's 3AM now.

E_T

[WhiteBandit]

...because I love you.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by WhiteBandit
...because I love you.

I don't think I want to know...

[adaMada]

@ White .

-- adaMada

[Aro]

I like the E_T work so much, he's is very adequate for the job. Nevertheless,my vote is for Ghengis, he's one of the most participant citizens, and he had been here for a long time.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by WhiteBandit
...because I love you.

Uh oh, GodKing's going to be jealous........

[=OttomusCeasar=]

I had planned to stay out of the fray and simply vote, but there are some issues that need to be addressed.

Originally posted by E_T
When I had first taken office as the Term V City Planner, I was faced with a monumental task. We had Rampant Corruption and Waste in our cities. Some of the cities were on the very edge of Civil Disorder if we had lost a single Luxury with the rest being growth enhanced by the newly acquired Pyramids and nearing the same problem. We had no practical technology research capabilities, with only 3 Libraries in 40 cities. We aquired our technologies through carefully thought out and executed trades with the tech leaders.

None of which was solved by E_T.

Corruption was improved by a switch to Republic and the initiation of a GA far more than anything E_T did.

Luxuries came from Togas and FAM. The growth was spurred by Ghengis and his worker force.

Science was Thud.

Originally posted by E_T Our Public Worker Force has also had a dramatic increase. We have added 32 (more than doubling) Native Workers and used some of the captured French cities to farm out 4 more Slaves. By the end of the term, we will have 8 more Native Workers and 2 more farmed out Slaves.

This was done IN SPITE of E_T not because of. E_T refused to build workers unless GF PAID FOR THEM. GF held E_T flat out posted that E_T's improvement request would not be done if he got no new workers. Aggie and others pressured E_T into building workers.

Originally posted by E_T With my guidance, I have almost brought this Great Nation out of it’s Dark Age and towards the goal of Greatness. Although, I did have the help of our Great Age to give us a boost, It has allowed me to bring us to this point. But, we still have a lot of things to do. We still need to get to the point of equaling and surpassing the other Nations in Technology. We still have the Military to build up in preparation for the future wars that are planned. We still have a lot of Jungle to cut down, Infrastructure to build and we’ll be needing to start building Railroads throughout our lands in the next term.

ONce again, all of this is examples of what other people have tried to do for Apolytonia. E_T did more to hinder our advancement than ANY OTHER official (with the possible exception of Punkbass- ) and claims responsibility for our military victories and everything else.

Ghengis proposed the Persian Campaign, Ghengish proposed the method of attack, Ghengis FOUNDED half of our civilization's cities, Ghengis cleared and improved the jungle. Ghengis proposed the current plan for reducing corruption in New France.

E_T is taking credit for GF's work and accomplishments.

E_T even proposed the exact same positons in his administration that GF did (SEVERAL DAYS AGO) only they are puppet postions. Look at his post, he will create 4-5 positions who can advise and suggest things to him. The rest of the citizens get no input or suggestion priviledges.

Need I remind you of how E_T lied to the VP before his election to further his agenda, or how he changed official, poll-voted on orders at a whim?

[Randolph]

wow, now this is a truly modern campaign...

Next term candidates will be renting banner space for negative adds

[joncnunn]

Yes, very modern, with a 3rd party posting an anti-endorsemen of one of the candidates.

[Aggie]

Both candidates have done much for this country and I hope the winner will have the loser as a deputy to him. ET did help reduce corruption and reorginized how the cp office functioned. Ghengis did an excellent job of building the improvements we needed and of making the jungle "burn, baby, burn". Because of their excellent performance I call upon both candidates, and their supporters, to campaign in a positive way. As SMC both cooperated greatly with me and assisted our wars. One comment I must make is this, panzer you used my name in vain when you said me and Ghengis had to pressure ET to make workers. I never pressured ET on workers, my only request were for rushing and military units. I will not comment on the other statements in the post since I think both candidates will make an excellent Domestic Minister and will not enter the campaign. But I will come out and say when something is inaccurate that is posted about me.
Aggie

[E_T]

Hnnn, now where do I start....

Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar=
I had planned to stay out of the fray and simply vote, but there are some issues that need to be addressed.


None of which was solved by E_T.

Corruption was improved by a switch to Republic and the initiation of a GA far more than anything E_T did.

The effecs on corruption from Monarchy and Republic is exactly the same, 2/3rds which is part of the Distance calculation of the overall Corruption calculation. The only difference is the added trade. BUT, if your in catastophic corruption, increasing your overall trade (or for that matter, your sheilds) is still going to get you one trade (or shield) for that city. Have a look at the corruption thread that I have always pointed to in my statistics (and it wasn't written by me, unless you think I'm a dupe), you might learn something or three.

I had to pay for the rushes to get the courthouses completed. I had also made the schedual of FP prebuild rush timings, to keep the overall costs down and to try to get it built in a timely manner. The timing of the GA had helped the process.

Luxuries came from Togas and FAM. The growth was spurred by Ghengis and his worker force.

Science was Thud.

The science Prerequisites for most of my builds were available when I had taken office. (I think) We were only lacking in Banks and (I know) Muskets/Cavalry. One or two extra luxurues doesn't matter without the happiness base of Cathedrals and Markerplaces to take full advantage of them. If you'll notice the single most item that was built is Cathedrals, followed by Courthouses, Libraries and Marketplaces (the last two would have been different, if we hadn't already had some Marketplaces in place from the last term).

This was done IN SPITE of E_T not because of. E_T refused to build workers unless GF PAID FOR THEM. GF held E_T flat out posted that E_T's improvement request would not be done if he got no new workers. Aggie and others pressured E_T into building workers.

I HAD not refused to build workers! I had discussed the possibility of throughput rushes on worker builds that would take longer than 2 turns to complete! According to what MoE Reddawd had told me, A rush on a worker would have to be approved by the MoPW as it was his budget that would be effected. I've had to do the same with the SMC and Mil Unit Rushes, which I have worked with Aggie on just before the French war (ask them).

As for what GF had posted about not doing my Infrastructre Requests without having more workers, at the time he didn't even know what my overall plan was, which was implemented in my first set of orders with changes to the Builds & Queues. GF was wanting 20 more, right then. I actually gave him more, but over some time.

The SMC was mostly wanting more Mil Units, which also I did accomidate him.

As for Infrastructure Requests that I've made to MoPW GF, most have been Ignored, even after getting the workers. Boomtown has an outragous amount of food surplusses when I had wanted more production capability. The area around Neon Uber City wasn't even going to be Irrigated, except for a path to Irrigate one Plains Tile in AGC. Shiberport could have a bit more production with its growth capabilities, but GF place more Irrigation than I had requested of him. I had requested that both of the grassland in Jerusalem be Irrigated, that way it would support the working of more mined mountains and maintain growth, he mined one of them. There are other examples....I just quite asking because I figured that I was wasting my time.

ONce again, all of this is examples of what other people have tried to do for Apolytonia. E_T did more to hinder our advancement than ANY OTHER official (with the possible exception of Punkbass- ) and claims responsibility for our military victories and everything else.

Hey I wanted to build and work on our overall corruption. But I also wanted the GA, really bad! I needed it to accomplish what I have done, in the first place. I gave the SMC my fullest support in building up to the initial attacks (ask him) and beyond. But I had initially supported a limitied war, because I was uncertain about how the additional corruption effects would impact the FP build (it only slipped back one turn by the end of it's build). After the GA was started, I was better able to look at the full outcome and promptly switched my support form limited war to full conquest.

Ghengis proposed the Persian Campaign, Ghengish proposed the method of attack, Ghengis FOUNDED half of our civilization's cities, Ghengis cleared and improved the jungle. Ghengis proposed the current plan for reducing corruption in New France.

E_T is taking credit for GF's work and accomplishments.

Yes, GF did all of those things. I don't slight him for that. I didn't take try to take credit for his accomplishments, I'm taking credit for mine.

E_T even proposed the exact same positons in his administration that GF did (SEVERAL DAYS AGO) only they are puppet postions. Look at his post, he will create 4-5 positions who can advise and suggest things to him. The rest of the citizens get no input or suggestion priviledges.

I had already given those positions some thought over the last several days and had PM'ed some people about them before GF had posted his organization plan. One of the people who I had asked, is running for FAM.

As for the idea of puppet positions, that's ludicruse. I don't want all of that work, but the New Con says that it will be under this office. If elected, I will have a lot of responsabilities that will come with the office. Part of that responsability is to make the ultimate decisions that will consern the office. The would also mean that I would be ultamately responsable for any MISTAKES that might occur, even if they are made by staff. I would be the one to answer to the Senate and the President about them, not my staff.

Need I remind you of how E_T lied to the VP before his election to further his agenda, or how he changed official, poll-voted on orders at a whim?

[chuckle] I was wondering if THAT would pop up during the race.

I did not lie to VP Apoc in the chat about the Hole in the Wall issue. That had come up right at the end of the last election and I thought that It had suffeciently been laided it to rest. The Court was even looking at the issues and I would have provided them with the full, unedited PM's that were part of the whole thing. I had also offered to publicly post the edited (for items of a personal nature) PM's for the population to see.

The Court didn't feel that it was a further issue to follow. The Public didn't either. If YOU (or anyone else) had really felt that it was a problem that needed to be addressed, why wasn't it pursued? According to the CoL, that might have been an Impeachable offense or someone (like you) could have brought charges up against me. They never appeared.

As for not being properly informed about some issues, because of the fact that's what had led to all of that problem, My first Instruction to the RA's when taking office WAS TO KEEP ME INFORMED about anything that might be an issue the that office, so that insident WOULD NOT be repeated.

As for changing officially polled items, or things that were discussed. I had posted an Official poll about Hole in the Wall, the public changed it's mind. I've posted a poll about the Palace move because of new information, the public is currently debating it.

The Public has wanted a stonger Military, I've provided it. It wanted to be free of the Jungle, I also helped get that with more workers. It wanted research and more money to provide for purchaces, I have also provided those too. It has had several Special Projects that it wanted, I worked as best as possible to provide those too, and asking them which was more improtant to them, because of the limits to the budget if I couldn't.

o.k. I think I'm done now.

E_T

[adaMada]

Originally posted by Randolph
wow, now this is a truly modern campaign...

Next term candidates will be renting banner space for negative adds

Indeed -- it is quite sad that we see this, especially considering that the people who post negative comments will only hurt their own cannidate in the public's eye. I have much harsher statements in regard to some of the comments I've seen posted by third parties, but I'll keep them to myself, out of respect for both E_T and Ghengis, neither of whom deserve the disservice their supporters are providing.

Truely, I believe this is a sad day for Apolytonian democracy.

-- adaMada

[E_T]

I've answered some questions and a few other things in the DM Campain Thread here.

E_T

[E_T]

I've made my last Campaign post here, in the DM Campain Thread.

E_T

[Sheik]

Next term candidates will be renting banner space for negative adds

I will rent out my sig space (just kidding)

This is a very close race! Good luck to the both of you.

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar=
E_T even proposed the exact same positons in his administration that GF did (SEVERAL DAYS AGO) only they are puppet postions. Look at his post, he will create 4-5 positions who can advise and suggest things to him. The rest of the citizens get no input or suggestion priviledges.

I have been a puppet of ET. It happened. It will happen to others.

[GhengisFarb™]

Wow, this thread has really changed since I signed off this morning!

I don't think negative campaigning is called for as there is a difference between the two candidates approach to the position.

E_T sees the position as one almost equal to the President from what I gather in his posts. And the NewCon definitely left it to be interpreted that way.

I, having grown used to the OldCon, still view it as a supportive position whose primary goals are to do what the President directs and simply achieve his goals and providing input into the direction.

Either is a perfectly rational way to view it under the NewCon, it simply comes down to whether you want a Domestic Minister who is fulfilling their vision for Apolytonia, or one who plans to fulfill a more collective vision.

Now, to the issues:

Originally posted by E_T
As for Infrastructure Requests that I've made to MoPW GF, most have been Ignored, even after getting the workers. Boomtown has an outragous amount of food surplusses when I had wanted more production capability.

They weren't ignored I simply don't have enough workers to complete every tile simultaneously. Rather than spread 12 workers over 12 tiles clearing jungle and have them all completed in 12 turns I prefer to combine them into a stack and clear a single tile in one turn and move on to the next. This way we get immediate use of a tile each turn instead of no use out of any of them for 12 turns. It's simply a different method than what E_T prefers, not necessarily better.

Originally posted by E_T
The area around Neon Uber City wasn't even going to be Irrigated, except for a path to Irrigate one Plains Tile in AGC. Shiberport could have a bit more production with its growth capabilities, but GF place more Irrigation than I had requested of him. I had requested that both of the grassland in Jerusalem be Irrigated, that way it would support the working of more mined mountains and maintain growth, he mined one of them. There are other examples....I just quite asking because I figured that I was wasting my time.

One he never asked, he ordered. Which did make me not want to help to my fullest extent to which I bear full responsiblity. However, I tried to put aside my own feelings and accomplish the requests he made with what resources I had available. Boomtown was irrigated because I mined the hills, something which E_T didn't want. I felt that mined hills and irrigated wheat would accomplish more than simply mined grassland all by itself.

I planned to irrigate ALL of the non-mountain tiles in Here It Is and Jerusalem's radius to make up for the lack of food generated by the mountain tiles despite E_T's requests to have them mined. If I mined all the grassland they would never grow large enough to utilize all of the mountain tiles in their radii. Once again, simply different strategies between E_T and I.

Yes I did irrigate more than was requested. I happen to believe that large cities contribute more than small ones. I believe in getting all of our cities to size 12 as soon as possible and once sewer systems are available, growing them to as large a population as they can sustain without going into disorder.

I am extremely confused by E_T's comments about growing cities as during his term he has gone to great efforts to try to prevent them from exceeding size 6 even when they could support a much larger population without going into disorder. For example Ghengistown was supposed to be building shields on a large project so it could switch to Isaac Newton once we got the technology but it has been held to size 6 even though it has a cathedral and natural aqueduct (river) and this steadfastness may have cost us a Wonder or even two (Hoover Dam was supposed to be built here later). SIDE NOTE: the Wonders weren't to be built here because its named Ghengistown, I chose to name this city that because it was our best Wonder building site, half hills, half grassland, and virtually all river. Although, some of our cities with cathedrals are still be kept below 6, perhaps he has seen the light!

Anyway, if I should lose this election I believe E_T will do a fine job as DM, and seriously doubt it will be the end of Apolytonia as we know it. He may think poorly of me, but it is simply because we have very different methods of gameplay and sometimes those methods dictacted different avenues of approach.

Fortunately, the old PW position wasn't under the CP's authority and had some freedom to choose whether a request was in the civilization's best long term interest or not.

[nz_upy]

This is the Key Issue here
"I don't think negative campaigning is called for as there is a difference between the two candidates approach to the position.

E_T sees the position as one almost equal to the President from what I gather in his posts. And the NewCon definitely left it to be interpreted that way.

I, having grown used to the OldCon, still view it as a supportive position whose primary goals are to do what the President directs and simply achieve his goals and providing input into the direction.

Either is a perfectly rational way to view it under the NewCon, it simply comes down to whether you want a Domestic Minister who is fulfilling their vision for Apolytonia, or one who plans to fulfill a more collective vision."

Does this border on anything?