In 3D I find FREEDOM!

Adam_Smith · March 13, 2000, 20:07

In one of my recent games playing as Domai I built the Cloudbase Academy. Big deal right. Only an aerospace center at every base, and you can just build them individually. Wrong, I got +2 movement for my bombers and my choppers. I think it has something to do with being Domai, because I've never experienced that with Miriam or anyone else.

Here is an example of +2 movement.

Elite Fusion Chopper without nanocells. 15 movement.

DOMAI RULES!!!

LoD · March 14, 2000, 04:16

Are you sure you didn't have a more advanced reactor with Domai. That could make your difference.

LoD

Misotu · March 14, 2000, 11:16

Hi Adam

I have to disagree with you here - the Cloudbase Academy is a seriously useful SP, particularly when you consider the impact of Orbital improvements. Once you're building satellites for food, energy and minerals, the impact on new bases is tremendous when they have an aerospace complex from day 1! Without it, the benefit of orbital improvements is halved.

I guess if you play with only a few highly developed cities then the impact of this SP is reduced. But if you like to play on huge maps (as I do), you're probably building many dozens of bases?

- Mis

Khan Singh · March 14, 2000, 12:29

The CBA is certainly worth building, if only for the savings on maintenance costs. The morale benefits are no minor consideration either.

But there are a number of projects worth building at about the same time. I'm not sure if I would build the CBA instead of something like the SuperCollider in a base that also had the Merchant Exchange. It is important to leverage your strengths to gain the maximum benefit of your faction's skills.

LoD · March 14, 2000, 12:30

On more thing Adam: one of the best things about SPs that give you free structures, is that you don't have to pay the upkeep for those structures. The Aerospace Complexe's cost per turn is 2. Multiply that by the number of your bases to see how much money you're saving per turn.

LoD

Adam_Smith · March 14, 2000, 15:46

quote:

Originally posted by LoD on 03-14-2000 03:16 AM
Are you sure you didn't have a more advanced reactor with Domai. That could make your difference.

LoD

Yes, I'm sure. I don't have the tech for a better reactor. I'm not sure that the better reactors give you more movement anyway.

Misotu,

Are you sure that the Cloudbase Academy alows you to build all satelites and halves the cost? I know the space elevator does. Possibly you have them confused.

Reduced maintenance cost is common for a special project and does make a difference once you have a lot of bases, but I doesn't make it a very "special project" and normally I'm not concerned if I don't build reduce maintanence cost SPs.

Ok, I don't remember getting the +2 movement. It's possible that there is some combonation with Cloudbase academy that gives you the +2 movement.

I think the +2 movement is much more significant than the reduction in maintanance cost. That is my point.

[This message has been edited by Adam_Smith (edited March 14, 2000).]

Civ-wrecked · March 14, 2000, 17:23

I seem to get the 2 extra movement points all the time with the CBA, at least ever since I noticed that at some point in my game, without any new reactors, somehow my air units suddenly gained two MPs.

The CBA, Command Nexus, and Cyborg Factory are awesome for an invasion, since not only I can rest my units in the newly-occupied cities, I can also build new elite troops there (only 10 minerals for an elite scout which I can upgrade either for defence or offence!). Buying the Command Center, the Bioenhancement center, and the Aerospace Complexes in the newly-occupied bases is not only expensive it would take several turns, at least, when the course of the battle could be turned.

Ogie Oglethorpe · March 14, 2000, 17:35

I'm not disputing all your findings here but are you sure that this simply isn't an effect of the increased morale to Elite unit status?
Fusion chopper

11 for normal chasis
+2 for fusion
Seems to me what we have here is Elite
+2 for elite

Or am I off base? (Cloud base that is)

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 14, 2000).]

March 14, 2000, 18:01

Yes, Ogie, I am sure its not just an elite status change. When I see this happen, I usually have a base 24 move for a needlejet, with the elite prototype having 26. After the CBA it either goes to 26/28 or 28/30 (Can't remember which). The fact that my protype needlejet is almost always elite while the others aren't makes me very aware of their base movements. In most games where I am playing agressively, there usually comes a point when I am eagerly awaiting the CBAs completion so I can reach an enemy base I couldn't without it.

------------------
Yours Truly

Mongoose · March 14, 2000, 18:06

I verify the effect of + 2 movement points.

I am playing that game against/with Adam_Smith. It is NOT a reactor or a morale effect. His fission reactor, non-elite (though those are few, at this point

) aircraft of all type have 2 more movement points than normal. So do the elite ones, for that matter.

I suspect that the SP effects were modeled on the Maritime. Intentionally done and undocumented, or unintentionally resulting from that modeling (or copying

) I know not.

Adam_Smith · March 14, 2000, 20:34

Ogie,

It's 10 for normal

+2 for fussion
+1 for elite
and supposedly +2 for CBA

Ogie Oglethorpe · March 14, 2000, 23:13

Adam Et al.

Thanks for the corection, shows me I should actually be doing real work at work and not posting commentary on SMAC or SMACX relying on obviously faulty memory. (You know the story you hate your job and this certainly passes the time

).

That being said just one more reason why CBA is one of the favorites around here.

March 15, 2000, 01:29

AS: The Cloudbase Academy rules for precisely the reason you specified. It gives a movement bonus to ALL aircraft regardless of faction. This has nothing to do with being Domai. I believe the bonus is +2 movement for Needlejets as well, which would imply a generic +2 move to all aircraft. I have seen this bonus with both Alien factions and Lal, which were my last three games. I'm not sure, but I think that it existed in SMACX v1.

Provost Harrison · March 18, 2000, 17:07

I have never identified CBA giving a movement bonus; it may be the extra movement point from having elite units. I'd rather take the -ve morale SE effects for stronger tech and economy and thus have to use experience to get elite units.

Nor does CBA half the cost of orbital improvements.

Adam_Smith · March 18, 2000, 21:54

Provost Harrison,

Thank you for the post. I never got movement bonus for it either with Miriam. I'm just starting to play the drones more. I take it you play the UoP. The question really is that does Domai get the movement bonus. I asure you it is not just elite bonus as I have pointed out above. You can't get 15 movement points with out nanocells. Unless of course you get bonus from CBA

Vi Vicdi · March 19, 2000, 00:56

CBA turns every base into an aircraft repair depot. For that alone it is priceless.

Sikander · March 19, 2000, 11:41

Vi Vicdi,

I agree completely that the value of the CBA (as well as the other two) rests in large part in the value of the repair capability. Even newly conquered bases can heal your forces. I also like the flexibility given to your military production, which doesn't have to rely on a West Point type city once these SPs are built.

All of the free facility projects are pretty darn good, especially if you build more than a few cities.

Helium Pond · March 19, 2000, 14:01

I always thought is was extremely wise of them to leave a "free Airbase" project out of SMAC. They'd made a free Command Center project, and a free Naval Yard project, and it would be obvious to include an Airbase project, but there wasn't one... so it looked to me like they did it on purpose. Seems like the Cloudbase Academy is one of those game-wreckers. Because, how can you have it and *not* win? Especially against the AI, but even in a multiplayer game, as soon as one faction builds this, they have an incredible advantage, for all the reasons given above. Sounds like a game-wrecker to me.

Mongoose · March 19, 2000, 18:31

I have verified this phenomenon using the scenario editor. For both the factions I tested, the Cyborgs and the Drones, building the CBA immediately increased the movement allowance of all existing and new built aircraft by 2.

I don't know if this is intended (one of the Easter Eggs the Firaxians spoke of when the patch was released, perhaps) or not.

Pending revision in a further patch, we must consider that there is an undocumented feature for CBA. That feature is that, like the Maritime Control Center does for ships, it increases movement by two for aircraft.

I did not try locusts, to see if the effect extends to them. (Just thought of it now.)

For the record, test was done with Crossfire V 2.0.

Mongoose · March 19, 2000, 19:33

Further tests:

Also increased movement points for Miriam's jets.

Had no effect on movement for Locusts.

Adam_Smith · March 19, 2000, 21:46

I also noticed that it doesn't effect fighters. Only bombers and choppers are affected.

Sikander · March 20, 2000, 10:37

Well, that is interesting. Yet another bonus for the chopper.

Tau Ceti · March 20, 2000, 15:06

From what I can see, it does affect fighters - but they only get one extra movement point.

In the manual, the Cloudbase Academy is listed as giving Fuel Nanocells to all your aircraft. In the game and the datalinks, that text has been removed, but it looks like the effect has not. The CBA's movement effect is exactly the same as you get by equipping your aircraft with Nanocells - but it is also cumulative with them (giving +4 movement, or +3 for Air Superiority units then).

Adam_Smith · March 20, 2000, 15:44

Sure enough tau ceti. It says that on page 34 of the smacx manual. I still don't see that it says you can get a maximum of 17 moves though. Can you add nanocells to your planes even though you have CBA and get 17 moves? Has anybody done this?

lemur866 · March 22, 2000, 17:20

The Cloudbase Academy definately adds 2 move to your aircraft, even non-elite.

The biggest advantage is that it allows tiny or newly conquered cities to get food from hydro sats. And it allows you to repair your choppers at newly conquered bases.

Worrying about SP's being game-wreckers: The trouble is that there are lots of factors that slow the game toward the end...research slows down, drone riots are up, etc. So then they throw in these "you're going to win anyway, so let's speed things up" SPs. Like the Telepathic Matrix...all it does is give you a dozen or so turns of peace and quiet from those sniveling drones at the end of the game. That alone makes it my favorite.

And then there's the nethack terminus, the SP for probes, so all unit types have SPs. What I want is an SP that will upgrade the morale of my formers or crawlers. No, not the Weather Paradigm, that speeds em up. Just the morale. Sure, you'd get killed anyway if anyone attacked you...but you'd die *bravely*. Wait, I can't remember...does the command matrix make your formers braver?

lemur866 · March 22, 2000, 17:23

The Cloudbase Academy definately adds 2 move to your aircraft, even non-elite.

The biggest advantage is that it allows tiny or newly conquered cities to get food from hydro sats. And it allows you to repair your choppers at newly conquered bases.

Worrying about SP's being game-wreckers: The trouble is that there are lots of factors that slow the game toward the end...research slows down, drone riots are up, etc. So then they throw in these "you're going to win anyway, so let's speed things up" SPs. Like the Telepathic Matrix...all it does is give you a dozen or so turns of peace and quiet from those sniveling drones at the end of the game. That alone makes it my favorite.

And then there's the nethack terminus, the SP for probes, so all unit types have SPs. What I want is an SP that will upgrade the morale of my formers or crawlers. No, not the Weather Paradigm, that speeds em up. Just the morale. Sure, you'd get killed anyway if anyone attacked you...but you'd die *bravely*. Wait, I can't remember...does the command matrix make your formers braver?

gnome · March 22, 2000, 19:26

There are a few SP's which in late game seem like "Sure-winners"... like Cloning Vats, or Nanotech... what's interesting is in a real cutthroat game when they're divided up among the remaining factions.

Helium Pond · March 22, 2000, 22:18

The game slows down at the end? Well, it does *literally* slow down, at least on my machine, and it's true that the foliage gets ornery, but I've never had a game where tech slows down. By game end I'm always getting a tech per turn. I always thought they should make tech advancement slower...

Adam_Smith · March 23, 2000, 00:39

At my best I discover one tech per turn and build one project per turn in the final turns.

Vi Vicdi · March 23, 2000, 02:18

Actually this is a relativistic effect caused by increased micromanagement. Time dialates as the number of build queues and units you must manage increases exponentially.