AMENDMENT: How to decide if an impeachment should occur?

[Pedrunn]

I will use the amendment format as defined in the Polling article.

A discussion started here to decide how should a member of the government be impeached.

According to the current draft of the constitution. A resolution poll confirmed by the majority of the citzens is enough.

Still Locutus has been against this and has suggested that in order to be impeached. The officer must break a rule stated by the constitution. This infraction of the rules of the constitution shall be investigated by the court first so that a poll can be created to decide the future of the officer.

Here is some topics of the discussion:

In favour:

Originally posted by Pedrunn
The resolution poll is to give the power to citizen as if a protest/revolution. If the majority of the community accept it has to be accepted.

Originally posted by Pedrunn
What if the people decides to impeachs a [government member] just because he is not doing a good job? This has no legal grounds.

Against

Originally posted by Locutus
If he doesn't follow orders, he can be impeached, if the people don't give adequate or plain bad orders, they should get their own mess sorted out first, before blaiming the president. Exactly why I think a Court investigation is needed before impeachment is started

Originally posted by Locutus
Well, start a poll if you must but if you can impeach people for doing a bad job and the only reason why people are doing a bad job is because they get bad orders, you sort of enter a repeating cycle that could potentially destroy the game. The legislative branch of the government should be the most powerful one but not omnipotent...

So is one poll voted by the majority enough to decide an impeachment?

[Pedrunn]

Locutus, Could you fix the gramatic mistakes of the poll question and type a '!' after the 'no' choice.

Thanks!

[Locutus]

Edit: done.

To sum it up: Pedrunn's stance is that someone can be impeached just for being impopular, while my stance is that he should actually break the law before impeachment is possible.

In the Constitution this would like like this:

Pedrunn's proposal (if you agree with this, vote Yes):

(a) The impeachment of an officer in a government position is decided with a resolution type of poll accordingly to the rules for it in the polling article.
[...]
(c) If confirmed by the Court that an officer was killed or an impeachment resolution is confirmed, the office in question will be vaccant and new elections will have to be hold for it.

My proposal (if you agree with this, vote No):

(a) Any Citizen may bring the case of impeachment of an elected Minister, President, or Judge to a member of the Court.
(b) The Court shall review the allegations made, allow an answer by the accused, and by a vote determine if there are proper and legal grounds to hold a Resolution poll to decide on impeachment. If the accusations are found to be without legal merit, the allegations shall be dismissed.
[...]
(d) If the Court decides there are grounds for impeachment, it shall start a poll in which it clearly states the person to be impeached and outlines the events that led to the impeachment. If the impeachment is confirmed by a majority of the voters in the poll, the officer in question can no longer practice its function.

If you agree with neither proposal, vote Abstain.


Vote for my proposal, vote No!

[Gilgamensch]

Locutus,

1. How much do you pay ?
2. I still don't like some parts in d.), the defence of the impeached has not to be displayed ?????????

Pedrunn,

1. How much do you pay ?
2. I actually prefer pedrunn solution s/v (resolution/revolution) idea behind it

But I wait for your answers on 1 each

[Locutus]

Gilgamensch,
I just copied my last suggestion, yes, your suggestion of publicizing the Court vote, the defence of the impeached, etc, would have to be added. Neither proposal is final but these sections I posted should give a good indication of the outlines of the system (even if some details might be adjusted).

[Gilgamensch]

still haven't decided and I am going home.

But I think I might still take Pedrunn's one (s/v)

I like it

[H Tower]

Vote No! there needs to be legal grounds to impeach.

I'd say that not following orders is a grey area for impeachment too, since the president is the only one who actually plays the game, conditions will change during his turns, and orders which in the past were brilliant, become dangerous.

If the president ignores orders or changes them completely for a good reason, I would vote against impeachment, however, if the pres cannot come up with a defense or was just plain negligent, then that is grounds for impeachment

[Maquiladora]

I voted no. Its more logical if you ask me.

[Frozzy]

NO! If you don't like a president's actions, tell him! A majority vte is pointless. It defies logic.

[Gilgamensch]

But this vote could also mean a revolution, not so logical to go via the court, but why not?

It is not only about impeachment, it would also include revolution/assacination/whatever.

I still like this idea

[Pedrunn]

I just think the resolution itself will give more power to the people.
As i see the majority of the community should have the power to decide whatever they want without having to go to manage this power through the court.
I dont want to be misunderstood, I dont want to take the president out because he is doing a bad job I want to give the power to the citizens to take him out if the majority want and whenever they decide to.

For example: There is a group of 20 citizens from our 29 citizens beginning a movement to take the president out becase this president is doing some very unpopular things. Like not accepting the results of official polls (it is possiple accordint to aticle poling section 3-II-e), not making enough number of official polls, making enemies in the community, not participating as it should of the between sessions discussions, etc...
And this group of people that is a majority wont be able because the court cant find legal grounds. Killing the democray concept.

In other words, i want to increase the power of our democracy. And thats why i made a joke between resolution/revolution (s/v).

[Gilgamensch]

I know Pedrunn, I just went a bit further........

And it would still depend on the majority. If WE feel the president is crap, OK, never mind, let's shoot him, bury him and let's continue with the GAME.........

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by Gilgamensch
And it would still depend on the majority.

Exacly!!!

[Gilgamensch]

some people here tend to forget, that it is us deciding and not some parties/groups. So I still don't see where the problem is/will be.............

[H Tower]

i don't suppport a majority vote, however, i might be persuaded to accept a two thirds vote, especially if the pres is streching the constitution

[Frozzy]

IMO... we should have two polls.

Poll one: If the majority is Under 2/3, a second poll is conducted. If it is 2/3+, the impeachment occurs.

Poll2: If there is a straight majority, then the impeachment occurs.

[Pedrunn]

Are you guys changing your votes?

Redbull, the two polls looks redundant to me.

H tower, this means changing the section 3-III-e of the article: Polling. But could be managed! Looks logical. But still, why 2/3 rather than 1/2. why do you think the majority isnt enough?

Note: You must have at least 1/3 of all the citizens voting in the poll.

[H Tower]

because impeachment is a big thing, it shouldn't be easy to achieve. the 2/3 reflects that IMO

[Frozzy]

I think we are also forgetting that impeachment will be a rare occurence.

[Pedrunn]

Originally posted by H Tower
because impeachment is a big thing, it shouldn't be easy to achieve. the 2/3 reflects that IMO

After some thought it is a bad choice to declare the resolution poll to have 2/3 of the voters to pass. It just breaks the whole concept of being a poll to make the decisions of the community valid. Therefore it has to be decision of the > 50% (The least to have a majority) of the community at all.

I think we are also forgetting that impeachment will be a rare occurence.

I am sure it will be. I dont think one are going to have one at all. But still i wish if we had it was conducted by the people
I can live with Locutus system though.

[Pedrunn]

*bump*

Please, people vote. 10 voters is just too few. I know deciding a constitution isnt something that good as the nam or others things like the name and the flag. Actually is somethng very boring if you think it is just bureaucracy. But give your opinion.

H Tower and Redbull, do you guy want to change your votes to 'yes' even though the result of the mpeachment poll is > 50% of the community?

Vote Yes

[Gilgamensch]

Pedrunn, Yes I voted, but can't remember anymore what I voted, which is a shame

Let's hope they will during this days

[Devil of Truth]

Yes I voted No

[Pedrunn]

So i guess it is decided them.

Decision:
No - Someone can only be impeached if he inflicts the constitution.

Does anyone wants to express a change of the vote or a new vote?

[Locutus]

I think the number of voters is dwingling because it's taking too long to set up the game. We should really try to wrap things up within a week...

[Gilgamensch]

reminds me:

Locutus did you vote in the MAP-setting: number of cities threshold poll?