DanS: Hu is now the man

Urban Ranger · November 15, 2002, 04:25

Hu Jintao is the man to watch now, after the 16th People's Congress, now that Jiang, Li, and Zhu are going to retire from the scene.

I suspect though at least Jiang still has informal influences just like Deng did. BTW, supposely Hu was handpicked by Deng.

Winston · November 15, 2002, 04:26

Great, now they've got an actual Butcher of the Tibetans in power.

Urban Ranger · November 15, 2002, 04:27

Oh yeah? Who got killed when?

Winston · November 15, 2002, 04:35

Well, the Chinese have been routinely killing and depraving Tibetans of basic rights since they occupied the country, which you know very well if you think about it, UR.

Hu cracked down hard on independence protesters in Lhasa during his tenure as party leader there in the late 80's. He was in supreme command and therefore directly responsible.

Looks good on his CV in the higher communist party circles though I suppose...

Nubclear · November 15, 2002, 04:37

Airse! Ye who refuse to be slaves! With our very flesh and blood....

Urban Ranger · November 15, 2002, 04:42

Sorry to correct you, even John King Fairbank concurred that Tibet should be considered an independent country.

Are you a supporter of capitalism? If so, then you support capitalists exploiting workers. Which makes all this talks of "basic rights" a wee bit hollow.

Winston · November 15, 2002, 04:46

You're missing the point. Just be glad you're not in Tibet longing for independence and freedom from oppression, UR.

Mr. President · November 15, 2002, 05:12

I have little sympathy for so-called "captive nations" like Tibet or East Timor. Why are they captives where Texas and Euxara are not?

Winston · November 15, 2002, 05:24

Maybe it's because their culture is downtrotten and they're in many cases denied rights of work, education, child birth, free practice of religion, and political rights.

Oh yes, and to a varying extent depending on when and through which channels you happen to check on the situation, a number of them are butchered...

Sarxis · November 15, 2002, 09:25

I kinda wish I lived in China- all that potential for a nation must be exciting times for them.

DinoDoc · November 15, 2002, 10:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Sorry to correct you, even John King Fairbank concurred that Tibet should be considered an independent country.

I'm glad to see that you agree with the civilized partion of the world that Tibet should be free.

Az · November 15, 2002, 10:18

I was rather amused by this sudden "change of hearts", and wanted to point it out myself, but then I saw your post... .

Adam Smith · November 15, 2002, 10:18

THIS article from today's Washington Post suggests that Zeng Qinghong is a very shrewd rival behind the scenes. Comments?

DinoDoc · November 15, 2002, 10:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
I was rather amused by this sudden "change of hearts", and wanted to point it out myself, but then I saw your post... .

If only he could convince the rest of his fellow countrymen.

DanS · November 15, 2002, 12:54

OK, looks like this Congress was totally as expected, except maybe Jiang did slightly better in supporting his allies and did slightly worse in protecting his own position.

But do we really know much about this Hu? It sounds as if the Chinese people don't know much about him and we know even less about him. The Western press doesn't have much to say about him, so they continue to talk about his rivals (as in the Post article Adam Smith referenced).

Anyway, there was an article yesterday in The Post about Li Ruihuan being "retired".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Nov13.html

That's a real shame. Seemed like he had a good idea of what to loose and what to hold bound (a tin ear seems to rule the roost most of the time). For instance, the following quote about Tianneman...

"The year before last, the college students created a disturbance. Was that a big deal? I think not. It was nothing but a few college students. The soldiers, the workers, and especially the 800 million peasants did not join in. So what's the fuss?"

Winston: I think the fact that Hu is a communist evil dirty bastard should be taken as a given. But I would still like to know about all of this stuff to try to get a feel for who this guy is and what his role is perceived to be (how he was groomed, etc.). Thanks for the data point.

Zkribbler · November 15, 2002, 12:57

(It's time to interrupt this intelligent discussion with a really bad joke:)

Hu???

(

Sorry, but I just had to. Please continue with your intelligent discussion.)

Winston · November 15, 2002, 13:48

No problem, Dan.

chequita guevara · November 15, 2002, 15:15

Wasn't Jintao the villain in Rush Hour?

Sten Sture · November 15, 2002, 15:24

Close Che...

Juntao

http://us.imdb.com/Name?Wilkinson,%20Tom%20(I)

ranskaldan · November 16, 2002, 00:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba
I kinda wish I lived in China- all that potential for a nation must be exciting times for them.

Very true. It indeed is exciting times.

Anyway, here's an excerpt from a Chinese-language forum. You can take the contents to mean brainwashing, censorship, or both. Whatever. Personally I find little difference between the American and Chinese nationalism that I see online. Just look at the way a few pro-Tibetans were brutally flamed.

(Here's a link. It's in Chinese though, but you can see the graphics:
http://wsg11.com/cgi-bin/topic.cgi?f...ic=134&show=22)

Quote:

A: Check it out, a "Free Tibet" map from Tibetan splittists!!
{map}
On their so-called independent "Free Tibet", they gave way all the land south of the MacMahon Line to India, in order to please Indian and Western forces supporting them. In order to win Indian support, they ceded Chinese land to India, - what betrayers they are of Tibet and China alike.

A: (another map)
(another map)
(another map)
(another map) - Look - all five poisons: Tibetan, Turkestani, Mongolian, Manchu, Taiwanese independence.

B: Mongolian? Manchu? Never heard of them. Probably dreamt up by some semi-insane person.

C: How big is China supposed to be, like that?!

D: Like the Northern Song dynasty!

(note: the Song dynasty was notorious for giving land away to barbarians.)

E: Mongolian independence is actually referring to Inner Mongolia, they go independent then merge with Outer Mong.
Manchuria? No one believes in a WW2 Manchukuo anymore.
As for the Tibetan govt-in-exile, they include all the areas that were mistakenly classified as Tibetan, like the Baimazang areas. By their logic, Indonesia is probably Chinese.

F: Land ain't food. Let them go independent.

G: {quoting E} Let's revive names like Di, Dangxiang etc.
(note: these were all ancient tribes in the Turkestani and Tibetan areas.)

H: (In English) Let these guys disappear from earth!

I: In their dreams.

A: The most disgusting isn't the splitting - they're spitting on the face of their ancestors. The 6th Dalai Lama was born in South Tibet, which is also holy to the Tibetans. But for independence, they're giving South Tibet freely to India.

H: (In English) Beat these guys!

E: Yeah, independence whatever, don't let them give away the lands that China fought to keep.
Vietnam is the best example. During Chinese suzerainity China couldn't keep Cochin China, but Vietnam conquered all of that. Only such form of independence is even meaningful.

J: (edited at xx/xx/xx xx:xx) F---ing watch it, some of you. I'm gonna curse your 18th ancestor. Land isn't useful, you f---ing get out of China.

J: (quoting F) When I see b----es like you I wanna ----! Die first, you ----, don't be the ---- of the Chinese race!

J: Differing opinions is fine, but I hate scum like you with no patriotic sense! Now it's peacetime, in war you'd be a traitor! Get the f--- out!

M: (moderator) (quoting F: Land ain't food. Let them go independent.) What the hell is this?! You're going over the line.

K: Racial scum!

L: Hahaha, let them go, us Chinese goes back to historical borders, during the Han and Tang.

N: Then why don't we go back to Shang borders? And Manchuria wasn't Han territory, you want to lose that too?

Well the discussion fizzled out, like all of them. But there's some perspective from the other side.

Urban Ranger · November 16, 2002, 00:59

DanS,

Jiang was widely expected to retire entirely, so his holding on as Chairman of the Central Military Committee is a bit of a surprise to many. Others pointed out that, however, this is another tradition started by Deng. Jiang sits in a position of power to make sure things go smoothly for Hu. Also, if Hu fails to behave as expected, he can do something about it.

NeOmega · November 16, 2002, 02:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba
I kinda wish I lived in China- all that potential for a nation must be exciting times for them.

I am very fascinated with China right now. I watched Jiang's to the 16th congress for about an hour.

Fairly interesting, although he said "the 3 represents" about 100 times, and I had to go look those up. He also said "Socialism with Chinese characteristics" about 100 times.

I am most fascinated with their "foresight" into the future. It's like their top minds are playing civ 3 and predicting how the power graph will look in 30 years.

DanS · November 16, 2002, 03:00

"Also, if Hu fails to behave as expected, he can do something about it."

What's the scenario, if Hu fails to behave as expected?

Stefu · November 16, 2002, 04:53

A link to our old pals at Chinese Military Forum would seem right.

mindseye · November 16, 2002, 06:59

Quote:

I kinda wish I lived in China- all that potential for a nation must be exciting times for them.

It is truly thrillng to live here! It's hard to describe how exciting it is to see a new nation leaping into existance all around you. I was back in the US for ten days, when I returned I couldn't believe the changes in my neighborhood after such a short period!

Urban Ranger · November 16, 2002, 08:06

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS
"Also, if Hu fails to behave as expected, he can do something about it."

What's the scenario, if Hu fails to behave as expected?

Probably ousting him in some way, like the other Hu before him.

Alexander's Horse · November 16, 2002, 09:13

Its quite significant they managed an orderly succession. That's the second one now.

The Mad Monk · November 16, 2002, 10:14

Why?

What's the record for orderly successions?

GePap · November 16, 2002, 14:01

You know, of all the Maps I have looked at, I could never find many with an 'independent' Tibet... Too bad the Tibet issue is only fodder for a tiny group of people...

UR: I had been eharing for weeks that Ziang wanted to maintain lots of influence in the government, so I am not at all surprised that he kept the posts he did.

Alinestra Covelia · November 16, 2002, 15:21

I really don't think whoever is in charge has much effect on the changes at ground level.

I'll definitely be back in Beijing for Christmas, and jobhunting during that time. I don't expect my comfortable standard of life to change drastically from how it was before.

The funny thing is that my housemate is also named Hu, but I suspect he probably isn't related to the President.