Question for the faithful-- - Page 2

djafrot · November 26, 2002, 20:08

By now you've probably made your choice, but I'll chime in too. I'm not a computer expert by any means, but have been using since a good old apple II+ back in the mid eighties. After that I had a Mac Classic, then switched to PC purely on a price basis.

Right now I have a PC running XP pro, and my parents have a Mac G4. I use their machine every weekend when I'm back home, and it drives me INSANE. First off, it came installed with both OS9.1 and OSX, switching between them when necessary. The set up tries to be intuitive, but when I would take a look at the hard drive, stuff was all over the place. I couldn't do basic stuff like burn a cd or buy a DVD player for it. Games pretty much don't exist. Every once in a while it forgets what resolution its on and the letters come up big enough to read from the next room. $*%#$&! My parents, being pretty much novices, are completely beleaguered by the thing.

I advised them to get a PC (if only because I knew more about it) but they listened to their artsy friends.

My advice: if you are a knowledgable computer user,don't bother with a Mac. Macs, I feel, are for people who don't really know what they're doing and have the money to buy something that does everything for you.

Yes, I have problems with my pc... but since everyone else has one, I just ask someone else about it and usually there's an explanation.

Oh, yeah, I HATE those stupid ads with the girl who says "I saved Christmas" or the guy who complains about the "blue screen of death". I plug my DV Cam and my printer and my joystick into XP and it works just fine. And the extra $2000 I saved from not buying a Mac goes a long way.

vmxa1 · November 26, 2002, 23:41

Alright my last time posting this, but for those who have not read it beofre, you may get a chukle:

Hi, my name’s Darby. I’m 33 and I live in my parent’s basement. I’m a social activist—I protest anything that I don’t understand. You can probably guess that I’m a pretty active protester.

I’ve heard a lot about computers lately, so I thought I’d go try one out. I went to this store that sold Windows computers first, and that wasn’t very good. I got really nervous because the mouse had what they called a “scroll wheel” on it. I said ‘Whoa! If I wanted to be a programmer, I’d be in school, man!’ They wanted me to buy a 2.4 gigahertz machine for a thousand dollars, but I had to choose how much memory I wanted, the size of my hard drive, and how fast I wanted the graphics card to be. I said ‘Dude, if you want me to work here, then give me a name tag.’ One of the clerks pushed me and I left.

On my way home I saw an Apple store. They had a computer there called an iMac that was just what I needed. I didn’t have to make any decisions at all. I got half the memory, half the speed of the graphics card, and best of all, it’s 800 megahertz instead of 2.4 gigahertz. I almost started laughing when they told me it would only be $1500. What a deal! 800 is totally faster than 2.4. Plus they said I could never change any parts, so I don’t have to worry about that. They even gave me a copy of a game called “Myst” that looks fantastic! And if I want to play more games, they had at least a dozen that I could pick from.

Macs are much faster than Intel. The computer store guys showed me two programs where the Mac is faster. I don’t use those programs, but it’s good to know that my computer is faster and smarter than those lamers who buy Windows computers. At the Apple store, they call it ‘Windoze.’ Ha! Those guys are funny!

The best thing is that I got a mouse with two buttons and no scroll wheel. I can work with that.

My name is Darby, and I bought a Mac. Now would someone please call my mom and dad to come pick me up?

lateralis · November 27, 2002, 00:22

damn man, that's just mean. I should've known this thread would EVENTUALLY degenerate into the typical flaming.

just look at as much info as you can and pick the one that seems to be right for you. try to ignore the argumentative nature that often comes up from BOTH sides in this often heated subject.

lateralis

ducki · November 27, 2002, 02:07

If you're switching because of stability, try upgrading to Windows XP first.

I've got an Alienware Windows XP machine and not only does it scream, I've had it for over a year and it has never crashed.

Ever.

0% downtime.

I'd love to switch to Mac too - my first "PC" was an Apple II+ - but the expense of switching is too high. More expensive system, PLUS the cost of repurchasing all my apps. Ouch.

Love Macs, hate the (invisible) cost.

ducki · November 27, 2002, 02:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Arrian:
Dos is the most reliable OS, but who knows how to run it, I am sure there are a few computer geeks out there, but for the most of us DOS is the same as greek. I always wanted to learn DOS but I have never had the time.

I think you're thinking of *nix (linux, unix, bsd, etc.).

If you want to learn a CLI(Command Line Interface), get a buddy to install RedHat on an extra partition.

Or spend a lot of time typing "help" while in windows "command" or "cmd", depending on version.

Those of us that have been using computers since before there was windows or mac find the fear of the command line to be curiously funny. Probably the same kind of funny you experience when your parents don't understand how to work that damned complicated Xbox/PS2/NGC controller.

Anyway, I've never heard anyone say "DOS is the most reliable OS" so I had to share my amusement.

Qilue · November 27, 2002, 19:50

I agree with ducki.

I'm not sure if it's still in print, but a book called "Using MS-DOS 6.22" from Que publishing is easy to read and will get you started using Dos.

All this being said, keep in mind that with the advent of Win XP, Dos is dead on x86 machines. Basically, software that needs dos will probably not run properly on today's computers due to CPU speed unless you specifically build one with old parts.

Plus, if your PC is running WinXp, then you're SOL unless you can get a hold of a copy of win98se or win95c, don't bother with any other version of win95, win98 or winme.

As to the PC vs Mac debate.

Personally, my choice is based on simple economics. I can't afford a mac no matter how good people or marketing says they are.

vmxa1 · November 28, 2002, 03:47

Dos being reliable is funny. I think DOS 2.x was my first one and ran all the way out to 6.22 and then Windows, but then I had already been in computers for about twenty years. Command line was a snap when you come from a machine language environment that requires input to be done via the computer front panel and paper tape using binary code octal. Machine level with no relative addressing. No assembler, compiler or interpreter. My XP PRO is solid as anything I have seen on a mainframe or a PC. Of course we did not have PC's in 1963 when I started on a Univac.

vmxa1 · November 28, 2002, 03:50

Actually I wonder how Bill Gates got to use the term DOS in the first place as IBM had a DOS operating system back around the late 60's for mainframes. I guess it was do to them starting the opsys out for IBM in the forst place.

GreyRandall · December 5, 2002, 09:26

The term DOS means Disk Operating System. Kinda hard to tell someone they can't use the term. IBM had their DOS, Microsoft has MS-DOS, Caldera has Dr. DOS.. Apple used ProDOS.

As for the debate, I thought I would share today's Kevin and Kell with you all

http://www.kevinandkell.com/2002/kk1205.html

SpencerH · December 5, 2002, 09:58

I've used Mac's and PC's at work and at home and over the years I've supported both sides of this argument. The high-end laptops are still very good. But for the most part, I cant see that macs are worth the extra expense (especially for the desktops) since they've fallen way behind in terms of most hardware.

I also havent liked the direction that the OS has gone. It used to be that the OS was 'user-friendly' so that you didnt have to fiddle with drivers etc (which is great for a beginning user). But over the years especially with OS8 and OS9 (I havent used OSX yet) I found it increasingly difficult to remove crap from the system that had been invisibly installed 'for my benefit' (BTW I've noticed the same trend with windows). At one point I had to format my HD to remove an app. This type of 'we know better than you' -thinking by Apple that used to be a convenience now borders on totalitarianism. I dont want Steve Jobs deciding what I can and cant do with my computer and this type of thinking has now spilled over into innovative Mac peripherals such as the IPOD.

I doubt that I will buy another Mac with my own money. I cant see why anyone would!

GreyRandall · December 5, 2002, 16:33

Quote:

Originally posted by SpencerH
I've used Mac's and PC's at work and at home and over the years I've supported both sides of this argument. The high-end laptops are still very good. But for the most part, I cant see that macs are worth the extra expense (especially for the desktops) since they've fallen way behind in terms of most hardware.

Fallen behind in the terms of hardware? Alright... They lead with SCSI, they lead with USB and firewire.. So the processors are faster... However, comparing the two processors on their speed alone is a rather unfair comparison. For example... for all it's speed, a 486DX266 was slower to open a Word document then a 68030 25 Mac IIci. I put together a 1.2 GHz P4 for my other half. She's got 384 Megs of RAM in her speed demon. I've got a Gossamer G3 at 233 also with 384 Megs of Ram. Side by side, my G3, with a much older processor is still faster opening any Office application or document. It's faster with Photoshop and illustrator. and it's faster loading AOL.

But you're right, macs're behind in terms of hardware. Let's just forget the fact that you're comparing apples to oranges. (forgive that) it would make sense if the hardware you were comparing were say to PC brands, two PC motherboards, or even Intel based machines to AMD based boxes.

Quote:

I also havent liked the direction that the OS has gone. It used to be that the OS was 'user-friendly' so that you didnt have to fiddle with drivers etc (which is great for a beginning user). But over the years especially with OS8 and OS9 (I havent used OSX yet) I found it increasingly difficult to remove crap from the system that had been invisibly installed 'for my benefit' (BTW I've noticed the same trend with windows). At one point I had to format my HD to remove an app. This type of 'we know better than you' -thinking by Apple that used to be a convenience now borders on totalitarianism. I dont want Steve Jobs deciding what I can and cant do with my computer and this type of thinking has now spilled over into innovative Mac peripherals such as the IPOD.

I doubt that I will buy another Mac with my own money. I cant see why anyone would!

Was user friendly? OSX is probably the most user friendly Mac OS version yet!

Just now noticing the trend from Microsoft?

So Microsoft didn't alter JAVA to meet their requirements, that whole court issue never happened. 'We know better than you'... Let's see.... use any Microsoft office suite and watch as it tries to complete sentences for you, how it seems to know what you want better than you do. Look at how FrontPage redesigns your code for you (for those that are web developers) You know how you want things formatted, but FP insists on changing it for you...

Remember upgrading to IE 4.0 on Windows 95/98 and NT? It knew you wanted to have the active desktop installed.. which caused a problem with printers at times.

Wait a sec.... I just installed IE... My Home page is MSN.com?

OR how about this little gem?

Wait a sec, I just upgraded from IE 5.5 to IE 6.. My home page WAS the corporate intranet, NOW it's MSN again? Nah.. Microsoft doesn't know what I want better than I do.

Oh... I have a brand new machine, built in 10/100 ethernet adapter... why then is Windows insisting on installing the dial-up adapter for me? Why is windows insisting on configuring TCP/IP and all other network protocols for the dial up adapter? Why can't I select ethernet at setup?

What? I need to have the dial up adapter so I can choose which one I want when I run that connect to the internet wizard for the first time?

Ok... I have a My Documents folder AND My briefcase on the desktop.... Why Can't I choose whether I want either of those there or not?

Oh, here's a good one! Microsoft is aware of some of the security leaks and virus vulnerabilities inherent in Windows and MS-Office... so how do they fix it? An update package from Office... Whoops! We know what you want better than you do. So tomorrow when you open outlook, we're just going to block attachments.. Not just .exe attachments, but .mdb, .zip, .eml (for forwarded messages), .gif, .jpg So much for your day if your job requires you to get an access database from your counterpart in Toronto, eh? Oh.. and the fix for this little "feature" in Outlook's security fix? You need to go into the registry and add or remove what extensions you want outlook to have access to. (Check Microsoft's Knowledge Base. That's how my counterpart in Barbados and I found the solution to why we couldn't handle the .mdb file that the Exchange Interorg service was sending between offices. ) Mucking about in the registry is great for your IS savy people, but what about Grandma who uses the computer to look at pictures from the family vacation, or your parents when you try to attach a picture of your newborn.. think *they* will be comfortable with Regedit?

Oh, let's not forget the Windows 98 SE installation that absolutely knew you wanted the online services, and the channel bar every time you started windows, so it put it there for you.

Removing apps. I've tried this in Win 95, 98, and 2000... some of them I have to go through and still remove items from the hard drive, or the registry entries remain even though the app is gone, but Windows doesn't mind, it'll just sit there in the background and Blue Screen of death at random moments. This comment you've made about Steve Jobs deciding what goes on your computer is a hoot. IIRC, wasn't Microsoft up for that one? After all.. Bill Gates already decided that when you buy a new PC the latest version of Windows will be installed on it. Forget if you wanted it to have DOS 6, forget if you wanted OS/2 or Linux. Microsoft Preinstalled everything. Want to use Eudora, or another mail application? Nope! Microsoft puts their email clients on your machine for you right off the bat! Want to use Netscape over Explorer? Nope, it's an integral part of windows.

As for the OS becoming more difficult. Hardly. I've been working in all three worlds(UNIX, MacOS and Windows) for the past 10 years now. Been an apple user since the Apple II. The OS is actually more user friendly than previous versions. Yes, I will admit, there's a little bit more to do, but the same can be said for Windows XP. Which I must admit, is in my opinion the first time Microsoft managed to get it right the first time... Of course, the transition to XP is going to be a little like the transition from Windows 3.1.1 and NT 3.5.1 to the Windows 9x/NT 4.0/2000 Things weren't where you were used to. (Just migrated a bunch of employees over from 2000 to XP, getting them so they knew where to find things since they weren't where they "normally" were was a task with some users)

Currently both companies have the best OSes for their platforms ever. But as I pointed out there's still some things Microsoft, or rather, the PC architecture (Can't say that this is Microsoft's fault, really) has that causes problems. The biggest one being driver issues. As I pointed out in an earlier post, you run into far fewer driver conflicts on a mac than you ever will on a PC. It's kind of annoying when you try to run software that your sound card conflicts with... especially when the software doesn't use sound. Does that really make sense? I'm not talking about a game here either. I'm talking about a simple application for looking up health insurance codes.

Legacy software.. this is a fun one. Ever try loading something for your kid onto their new computer, only to find that they can't use that software anymore because the sound card you have isn't supported by the software?

Invisibly installed software on the Mac (OS 8 and 9)? I think not. If it's something in the OS, it's an extension or a control panel, and those are turned off or on with a click. This can be done at startup, or from the Extension manager control panel whenever the user wants.

Formatting a drive just to completely get rid of something isn't just on the Mac side. Try adding a Philips USB CD Burner to a Dell Optiplex running Windows 2000... ok, no problem.. install the Adaptec software that came with the burner... WHOOPS you can no longer boot!... Repair? nope, didn't work either.. what's your alternative? Option 1.. format your drive... lose everything you've got on there.... Not a very good idea. Option 2... install a second copy of Windows 2000 sure, you'll have to reinstall your apps, but your data at least is still intact so yo can resume your work. (Would have been nice to boot so a backup of the data could be done, no?)

Add an Iomega ZipCD to your Windows 98SE machine... Wait a second, suddenly you're geting problems with VXDs and Windows keeps shutting down. With a mac, if I run something on one mac, it will run without driver conflicts on any other mac I take it to. There is no worrying about whether my mother's sound card conflicts with this program I brought with me so I can catch up on a little work at night while I'm visiting.

But, of course, you're right. IRQ Conflicts, Device conflicts, Driver conflicts. Different appearances from one machine to another... PCs are way ahead of the times in hardware. Apple is totalitarian about what they put on the machines they designed, telling you what you can and cannot do with them (odd, considering I've seen macs do everything from run a home security system to a complex medical scanning machine and a mobile heart monitor.) .. Microsoft would *never* stoop to such tactics.

Let's see what's worth the extra expense, shall we?
Look at the frequency of Critical System updates for Windows 98 and Windows 2000. It's gotten to the point that the IS department has set everyone's computer to automatically update their computers at 9 AM. The IS Manager frequently, as in at least twice a month, has emailed me Microsoft Security Bulletins... not singular, mind you, but 2, 3, sometimes 5 in a single day. Miss the wrong critical update or security patch just once, then who has to pay for fixes, etc? VBScripting Host has allowed someone with a sick sense of humor to play games with your machine, your email, now you're getting blamed for being the office typhoid Mary.

Let's see I started in computers in 1978, it's now 2002.

On my mac, I've had to deal with 1 WcDev and 1 Worm
On my PCs, I've faced 6 KLEZ variants, Nimda and a boatload of other little VB tricks people can play with macros. No, not a cost in money... though Nimda did cause me to have to buy a new hard drive for one of my NT servers But a cost in time and frustration... Don't know about you, but my time is a little bit more important to me than what little money I do have.

But you are right. Apple is way behind the times in hardware. They're totalitarian about what software goes onto the machines that they themselves design and build... (Does Microsoft build their own boxes?).. they can't possibly know what their own product requires to run properly.

Sure, PC's are cheaper. Initially. Only additional money that goes into my mac is a Hard drive upgrade when I run out of space, or a RAM upgrade. To solve compatibility with software problems, I've had to purchase the following for my other half and my kids for their PCs so they can run what they want to....
4 video cards, 3 sound cards. 3 modems, 6 ethernet adapters.

Why did I have to buy these things? You'd find one that works with everything until you tried to run that one app. then you see the conflicts. The only saving grace is that there's a used parts place right around the corner from my house, so I can get back some of the money I spent on new peripherals and hardware.

Jaybe · December 5, 2002, 17:49

On a rare occasion, 3rd party software for Mac may be "difficult" to install. Probably put an invisible file in preferences or elsewhere in the system.

Overall, the benefits and experiences of computer users is highly individual. I find that evangelical rhetoric does little to help an individual select a platform that is right for them. I have been a Mac person since 1989, but for the last year I have also had a Windoze machine (but it's just for Civ3

).

Nubclear · December 5, 2002, 17:49

I feel like I'm reading all those Mac sites all over again....4 video cards, 7+ viruses, removed programs suddenly causing BSoD....

Funny thing is, I only read this when some of the more religious mac people begin posting on message boards. Personally I've only had 1 virus in my life, never spent money on 4+ video cards, and on rare occasion do I get BSoD.

I can respect someones opinion on what machine their getting, but when their claims about the other machine begin borderlining on absurdity (4 video cards? Come on......And the viruses came from your own stupidity)......

Speaking of religious zealots, I'm getting more and more calls from the Chuch of LDS....Their becoming quite annoying, and I should go rectify the problem.

Minmaster · December 5, 2002, 17:53

Quote:

Originally posted by MiloMilo
... I also specifically want to know what this means in terms of civ3. No multiplayer? I can deal with that. No single-player PTW? Fine. But where is the mac version in terms of patches? Still way behind? Is it ever going to catch up? Etc. etc. Thanks folks.

M

since this is a civ forum and he is asking about status of civ3 for mac, let me say again stick to PC if you want to enjoy civving. i dont know if 1.29 will be released for vanilla civ3 for mac, and to be honest, i dont think 1.29 patch will come to mac for a long time, maybe never. ptw is probably unlikely, since ppl who ported civ3 to mac probably realizes all the headaches in working on subsequent patchs following civ3's release as well as all the time and effort spent trying to bring the editor as well was not worth it. they are probably also tired of hearing "whens the patch coming? whens the editor coming?" they work on one patch and then when thats out theres another patch to translate, so i understand if they are frustrated with how civ3.

ChaotikVisions · December 5, 2002, 18:22

Quote:

Fallen behind in the terms of hardware? Alright... They lead with SCSI, they lead with USB and firewire.. So the processors are faster... However, comparing the two processors on their speed alone is a rather unfair comparison. For example... for all it's speed, a 486DX266 was slower to open a Word document then a 68030 25 Mac IIci. I put together a 1.2 GHz P4 for my other half. She's got 384 Megs of RAM in her speed demon. I've got a Gossamer G3 at 233 also with 384 Megs of Ram. Side by side, my G3, with a much older processor is still faster opening any Office application or document.

Why are Mac users always building PCs for their "other half". They being probably the more computer literate ones, but giving the less computer literate ones PCs, which acording to Mac users aren't as user friendly. Couldn't they convince said "other half" to try a Mac? Surely they would be 'swept' away by it. So your old Mac seems faster opening text things or editing graphics, thats impressive? I can't imagine the difference is that considerable, but i'll give you that its a plus.

Quote:

It's faster with Photoshop and illustrator. and it's faster loading AOL.

You know, I had always suspected AOL was the choice of Mac users.

I mean, they use fast reliable computers, so why not a fast reliable ISP?

Quote:

Remember upgrading to IE 4.0 on Windows 95/98 and NT? It knew you wanted to have the active desktop installed.. which caused a problem with printers at times.

Wait a sec.... I just installed IE... My Home page is MSN.com?

OR how about this little gem?

Wait a sec, I just upgraded from IE 5.5 to IE 6.. My home page WAS the corporate intranet, NOW it's MSN again? Nah.. Microsoft doesn't know what I want better than I do.

Oh... I have a brand new machine, built in 10/100 ethernet adapter... why then is Windows insisting on installing the dial-up adapter for me? Why is windows insisting on configuring TCP/IP and all other network protocols for the dial up adapter? Why can't I select ethernet at setup?

What? I need to have the dial up adapter so I can choose which one I want when I run that connect to the internet wizard for the first time?

So the company that makes the software you're using to browse the internet sets itself as the homepage when you upgrade, how dare they! And are you seriously complaining about setting up something that takes almost no time at all? I've never had to manually configure dialup-adapters protocols on an install. And you don't even have to run the Internet Connection Wizard, so thats just a moot point.

And yes, you can choose wether you want 'My Documents' or 'My Briefcase' on the desktop. If you'd just look customizing it is pretty easy. Or if you're incredibly lazy, you could just delete the shortcuts. And I don't think 'grandma' would be using the companys computers to get pictures of her newborn, and if she was she'd be fairly competent computer wise anyway. And the only thing I see in my version of Outlook along those lines is an OPTION, not a default setting. Though i'll give you that it might have been a problem in earlier versions.

Quote:

Oh, here's a good one! Microsoft is aware of some of the security leaks and virus vulnerabilities inherent in Windows and MS-Office... so how do they fix it? An update package from Office... Whoops! We know what you want better than you do. So tomorrow when you open outlook, we're just going to block attachments.. Not just .exe attachments, but .mdb, .zip, .eml (for forwarded messages), .gif, .jpg So much for your day if your job requires you to get an access database from your counterpart in Toronto, eh? Oh.. and the fix for this little "feature" in Outlook's security fix? You need to go into the registry and add or remove what extensions you want outlook to have access to. (Check Microsoft's Knowledge Base. That's how my counterpart in Barbados and I found the solution to why we couldn't handle the .mdb file that the Exchange Interorg service was sending between offices. ) Mucking about in the registry is great for your IS savy people, but what about Grandma who uses the computer to look at pictures from the family vacation, or your parents when you try to attach a picture of your newborn.. think *they* will be comfortable with Regedit?

Oh, let's not forget the Windows 98 SE installation that absolutely knew you wanted the online services, and the channel bar every time you started windows, so it put it there for you.

Removing apps. I've tried this in Win 95, 98, and 2000... some of them I have to go through and still remove items from the hard drive, or the registry entries remain even though the app is gone, but Windows doesn't mind, it'll just sit there in the background and Blue Screen of death at random moments. This comment you've made about Steve Jobs deciding what goes on your computer is a hoot. IIRC, wasn't Microsoft up for that one? After all.. Bill Gates already decided that when you buy a new PC the latest version of Windows will be installed on it. Forget if you wanted it to have DOS 6, forget if you wanted OS/2 or Linux. Microsoft Preinstalled everything. Want to use Eudora, or another mail application? Nope! Microsoft puts their email clients on your machine for you right off the bat! Want to use Netscape over Explorer? Nope, it's an integral part of windows.

As for the OS becoming more difficult. Hardly. I've been working in all three worlds(UNIX, MacOS and Windows) for the past 10 years now. Been an apple user since the Apple II. The OS is actually more user friendly than previous versions. Yes, I will admit, there's a little bit more to do, but the same can be said for Windows XP. Which I must admit, is in my opinion the first time Microsoft managed to get it right the first time... Of course, the transition to XP is going to be a little like the transition from Windows 3.1.1 and NT 3.5.1 to the Windows 9x/NT 4.0/2000 Things weren't where you were used to. (Just migrated a bunch of employees over from 2000 to XP, getting them so they knew where to find things since they weren't where they "normally" were was a task with some users)

Registry entrys left over from programs BSOD'n you? Not that i'm questioning your computer knowledge, but how would a registry entry that does nothing BSOD you, assuming that since said program is unistalled nothing will even be accessing it. MS also offers a program called RegClean for Win9x to remove unused registry entrys, if they bother you that much. And since when is using an alternate mail client or web browser difficult? When I first started using a Windows computer I was able to use Netscape/Eudora no problem. Used them till we upgraded to 98 then just used IE/Outlook because there wasn't that big of a difference between them.

Oh my, quite competent employees you have there. Are they all Mac users too? Saying an OS is bad because "they had quite a chore finding the right buttons" is ridiculous. Hey I know, make a custom XP theme for them, with all the buttons as bright glaring colors, i'm sure that'll work.

Quote:

Let's see what's worth the extra expense, shall we?
Look at the frequency of Critical System updates for Windows 98 and Windows 2000. It's gotten to the point that the IS department has set everyone's computer to automatically update their computers at 9 AM. The IS Manager frequently, as in at least twice a month, has emailed me Microsoft Security Bulletins... not singular, mind you, but 2, 3, sometimes 5 in a single day. Miss the wrong critical update or security patch just once, then who has to pay for fixes, etc? VBScripting Host has allowed someone with a sick sense of humor to play games with your machine, your email, now you're getting blamed for being the office typhoid Mary.

Let's see I started in computers in 1978, it's now 2002.

On my mac, I've had to deal with 1 WcDev and 1 Worm
On my PCs, I've faced 6 KLEZ variants, Nimda and a boatload of other little VB tricks people can play with macros. No, not a cost in money... though Nimda did cause me to have to buy a new hard drive for one of my NT servers But a cost in time and frustration... Don't know about you, but my time is a little bit more important to me than what little money I do have.

But you are right. Apple is way behind the times in hardware. They're totalitarian about what software goes onto the machines that they themselves design and build... (Does Microsoft build their own boxes?).. they can't possibly know what their own product requires to run properly.

Sure, PC's are cheaper. Initially. Only additional money that goes into my mac is a Hard drive upgrade when I run out of space, or a RAM upgrade. To solve compatibility with software problems, I've had to purchase the following for my other half and my kids for their PCs so they can run what they want to....
4 video cards, 3 sound cards. 3 modems, 6 ethernet adapters.

Why did I have to buy these things? You'd find one that works with everything until you tried to run that one app. then you see the conflicts. The only saving grace is that there's a used parts place right around the corner from my house, so I can get back some of the money I spent on new peripherals and hardware.

Of course Windows deals with far more software and users then Macs, but I guess that wouldn't be any part of them keeping their software up to date. Nope, none at all. 99% of the time if someone got a virus, they could have prevented it using a little common sense.

Funny, even when I was new to computers I never got viruses. I guess the idea of not downloading from odd sources or not opening all e-mails seems foreign to some. Maybe its just me who actually bothers to use some sense when using a computer.

And you know, maybe I was wrong. Mac users aren't stupid, they just have lots and lots of money to throw around. I mean, i'd probably pay double for something if I bought 4 video cards, 3 modems, 3 sound cards, and 6 nics just to quickly solve compatibility issues. They of course assume it is the hardware matter what causing said problem. They shake aside the thought of updating drivers, or even worse, updating the application itself.

I swear, this guy must have wrote some of the 'Switch' commercials. Now they're having him double as a fanatic posting on the odd forum to increase sales after what a disaster those commercials must be.

MiloMilo · December 5, 2002, 20:00

Stop the madness!!

I think there's far less difference between the two systems than everyone seems to think there is. For those who do a lot of professional programming for businesses etc., PCs are nice, the new .NET stuff seems to be very useful. For people who need scream machines to play every game in every genre that ever comes out, again PCs are better (though these gaming PCs, like the alienware stuff, seem outrageously expensive for machines whose purpose is only recreation... as I think someone mentioned above, these days you're better off going to the console market unless you're very rich.) On the other hand, for people who do anything visual, macs seem to be the way to go.

But all that's neither here nor there. What do most people use computers for? Word processing, web browsing, email/instant messaging, amateur digital photography/video, a few games, and music. Fact is, one platform is as good as another. Almost everything's compatible, they can share networks, the prices are similar (I've been shopping, trust me).

For what it's worth, the decision's been made. I made the switch, and am awaiting delivery of a phat new powerbook that was actually cheaper, feature for feature and pound for pound, than an equivalent windows machine.

lateralis · December 5, 2002, 20:21

congratulations! no matter what anyone else has said, I personally think you will be happy with the switch. did you get the newest revision? I have the last revision of the powerbook (800 mHz) and I love it, I actually use it more than my dual 1gig desktop. There is just something about sitting on the couch and wirelessly surfing the high-speed internet that I can't get enough of. anyhow, welcome to the mac-side. Let there be no mistake, people get heated about this issue, I don't really know why. don't let it get to you.

lateralis

MiloMilo · December 5, 2002, 22:52

Thanks Lateralis. I think it's kinda funny how people are so brand-loyal. Even people who walk around saying they hate microsoft generally refuse to walk the walk, as it were. I was one of those people: admiring of Apple's products and direction, but mindlessly buying windows machines when I needed a computer. Of course, all the ads and rhetoric aside, I think now really is the perfect time to "switch." Everything seems to be compatible with everything nowadays. My current (soon to be ex-) computer runs winXP, and I gotta say, for all that I dislike Microsoft and am leaving it behind, it's a really great operating system. If I hadn't found the deal I got, and liked a PC brand's hardware (I was an inch from buying a Fusjitsu laptop... those are beautiful), I would gladly have bought another PC.

I got an 800 mhz one like yours, with all the bells and whistles. Since Apple update the processors to 867 mhz and 1 ghz, a local store had a ridiculous sale to clear their inventory of the old ones. I did exhaustive research before deciding, and it seems that the biggest improvements were implemented in the jump from the 667mhz to the 800 mhz ones. So I feel totally comfortable buying "obsolete" hardware. Heck, I was actually going to buy an ibook--this just turned out to be the same price!

Nubclear · December 5, 2002, 23:50

Alright, kewl. Have fun with your new apple.....

And remember, no matter what system your on......Don't buy 4 video cards

Its just not worth it.

djafrot · December 6, 2002, 22:39

regarding those awful mac ads...

http://members.cox.net/tauntaun/SW/Sith.swf

EJDay · December 6, 2002, 23:58

Quote:

Originally posted by djafrot
regarding those awful mac ads...

http://members.cox.net/tauntaun/SW/Sith.swf

I'm a Mac guy through and through, but that was funny!

Minmaster · December 7, 2002, 07:47

ok im going to have to eat my words because civfanatics is reporting that PtW is indeed coming to mac! i hope that makes it easier to decide to switch!

Raion · December 7, 2002, 13:39

I remember those days. I went to the store and everyone else decided to buy a PC, vs. Apple.

Let's see, my Apple IIC, last time started, after I knocked it, but then, it had not been started for over 17 years.

I just keep it around!

So far, I am not familiar with Mac's anymore, due to spending my time fixing the PC or updating drivers or buying something else for it, and keeping the OS working. But hey, every year and a half, Windows 98 will break down, but then, I just got Windows 2000 Professional, but then, a PC is something one buys to have an economy to fix those machines continually, a Mac is a computer, but since only a few want to support it, it leaves the PC to mess around with and continually upgrade patches with.

What was the advertisement for Windows XP -- more reliable - more secure.

300 updates to security in Windows XP alone, Mac - 4 updates.

Microsoft, never could program!
Apple does it too good!
But hey, I need money and a job!
Gates needs a few billion more!
Realtime - something that may occur, but my Apple IIC can do.
Simply put, I think the PC has moved back the industry to where it could be, by a few years at least. But hey, all need money and don't forget to all those PC customers spending their money at the local computer fixit store.

Jaybe · December 7, 2002, 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by djafrot
regarding those awful mac ads...

http://members.cox.net/tauntaun/SW/Sith.swf

Out-rageous!

I replayed it 4 times,
over and over again.

BTW, I'm another one of those Mac guys (with a Windozer to play PTW).

Coracle · December 7, 2002, 23:07

Quote:

Originally posted by MiloMilo
Wow, lots of responses. For what it's worth, here's what I think about the whole thing:

Supporting underdogs is definitely one of my priorities. Right now I use a compaq with an AMD processor and winXP. Going to the mac platform would mean taking that support away from AMD, but it would also take money away from microsoft.

Reason enough to switch!!

Microsifts Windows Me OS was a load of garbage that froze my system requiring me to get it off, reinstall Windows 98 SE, search the Web for drivers, and then install them. A big pain they never told me I;d have to do on the box when I bought it. They also did not tell me that the manufacturer of my modem HAD NO driver for Me at all. Lousy MS "support" told me to experiment.

I have far more problems with MS than I do even with Civ 3 which I've knocked for a year. PC's have a lot more software, and are the business standard. If that doesn't bother you, go for a Mac.

Mad Bomber · December 8, 2002, 00:13

Quote:

Originally posted by djafrot
regarding those awful mac ads...

http://members.cox.net/tauntaun/SW/Sith.swf

ACooper · December 8, 2002, 00:28

Coracle, that explains alot about you.

I am both PC and Mac certified and service both. Macs are harder to fix, but they break less often. PCs are alot more flexible and if configured right rarely break down either. Really, take your pick, though I personally would never use a Mac if I had an alternitive. (Intuitive my @$$!)

BTW, BSOD are almost 100% hardware problems.