Idea this: Guerillas AND Mercenaries

problem_child · November 18, 2002, 09:26

I'm still waiting for PTW, but when I get it I'm eager to try this idea out,

Guerillas:
Stealth, as powerful as riflemen, and half as cheap as infantry, can move 3 squares.

Mercanaries:
Almost dentical to Guerillas, except can only move 1 square per turn (like infantry) are Visible, but would carry no flag- AND are transferrable (like Workers) and one more thing- slightly MORE expensive then Infantry.

This would to ensure nobody tries to fight a war using an army of mercs, but can engage in the ol' USA/Contra type campaigns (dirty wars) as well as create mercs to send to allies (abit like the USA/Mujahadeen type situation). Of course, if you did that- just like USA/Mujahadeen, be careful those same mercs don't end up fighting Against you at some point.

Anyway, yooz thoughts?

problem_child · November 21, 2002, 12:42

^

Baggio · November 22, 2002, 00:01

Transferrable like workers? How would it work.....wouldnt they be captured the instant they were attacked?

I like the idea though....but instead of manufacturing it..perhaps some random event window will pop up and inform you that they are available for hire and how many units and for how much gold.

Then you can choose to place them whereever you want in a city that has a marketplace or something....cool.

They could be privateer style and you can use them to attack enemy units and they wouldnt know who employed them. Kinda like giving your opponents a permanent(expensive) barbarian problem thru the ages.

Usually Insane · November 22, 2002, 06:21

anyone played macchiavelli/mercvhant prince

you could hire mercenaries and have them fight for you, of course there are differences but there was a nice idea

zulu9812 · November 22, 2002, 10:23

Quote:

Originally posted by problem_child
Guerillas:
Stealth, as powerful as riflemen, and half as cheap as infantry, can move 3 squares.

You sure you want the Stealth ability for a land unit? All that does is reduce the chance of aircraft being intercepted. Do you mean Invisible? If you do, I've tried using invisible combat units and they're too powerful. How about an invisible, non-combat, pillaging unit (still w/move 3)? That way, they're an effective anoyance, but not a conquering force.

Quote:

Originally posted by problem_child
Mercanaries:
Almost dentical to Guerillas, except can only move 1 square per turn (like infantry) are Visible, but would carry no flag- AND are transferrable (like Workers) and one more thing- slightly MORE expensive then Infantry.

When you say 'carry no flag', are you talking about the AI strategy boxes? If at least one of those isn't ticked, the AI either won't build them or won't use them properly. And what do you mean by 'transferable like workers'?

Palaiologos · November 22, 2002, 12:22

And why shouldn't one fight an only-merc war?

They are expendable, unlike the citizen soldiers.
Carthage did so.

Caliban · November 22, 2002, 13:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Baggio
Transferrable like workers? How would it work.....wouldnt they be captured the instant they were attacked?

I think problem_child means that they can be traded on the diplomacy screen...

Billster2k3 · November 22, 2002, 14:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Caliban

I think problem_child means that they can be traded on the diplomacy screen...

I think that's exactly what he means and I kinda like it. Especially if, like most trades, it is time-delimited (i.e., 20 turns then you get them back). That makes it more like "lending" them to another civ' ala the Foreign Legion (fight for the highest bidder unless France needs them). Hmmm...maybe an interesting alternate French UU to replace the sorry musketeer?

Billster2k3 · November 22, 2002, 14:24

Quote:

Originally posted by zulu9812

How about an invisible, non-combat, pillaging unit (still w/move 3)? That way, they're an effective anoyance, but not a conquering force.

Other than the invisibility we already have this unit. It's called Explorer.

Caliban · November 22, 2002, 14:39

I once thought about giving the guerilla an ADM stat of 0.6.1 and the abilities "treat all terrain as roads" and "hidden nationality". That way, you wouldn't be able to conquer cities or capture workers/settlers, but could use them effectively as an annoying/pillaging force.

I think this would resemble real-world guerilla wars like in Kashmir...

Panag · November 22, 2002, 16:26

hi ,

play around with the editor , you shall get some very amazing units , ......

and its very funny to see how the AI uses them sometimes

have a nice day

zulu9812 · November 22, 2002, 16:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Billster2k3
Other than the invisibility we already have this unit. It's called Explorer.

Quote:

Originally posted by Billster2k3
Other than the invisibility

Quote:

Originally posted by Billster2k3
Other than the invisibility

besides, i think explorers shouldn't be able to pillage anyway.

Switch · November 22, 2002, 18:44

Quote:

Originally posted by zulu9812
When you say 'carry no flag', are you talking about the AI strategy boxes? If at least one of those isn't ticked, the AI either won't build them or won't use them properly. And what do you mean by 'transferable like workers'?

I think he means the "hidden nationality" unit ability. Kind of like a Privateer.

Billster2k3 · November 23, 2002, 09:05

okay okay okay, zulu, I understand your point. I just think if we're gonna lobby for a cool new unit it ought to bring something to the table other than just adding one ability to an existing unit. So maybe an explorer with invisibility AND he bakes a mean lasagne?

zulu9812 · November 23, 2002, 13:16

actually, I'm partial to a spot of bolognase

problem_child · November 25, 2002, 10:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Caliban

I think problem_child means that they can be traded on the diplomacy screen...

(I really should check the site more often)

Yes Caliban, I mean transferrable in the diplo screen.

Also , if mercs have a low attack value, the AI wouln't use em to take cities anyway, unless they were part of a major offensive with regular units too, the same would apply to guerillas as well I'd imagine. Merc units would also need paying every turn, so it'd be a good way of covertly fighting wars against enemies by proxy, AND suppressing the client nations economy to keep it down there in the little-leagues. Mercs would mean you could prolong wars, make more money from em etc.

Mercs I see as more expensive then infantry but as weak as Guerillas, to reflect the poor deal anyone gets from hiring foreign soldiers (if you've read Machiavellis The Prince, then you know all about mercs

) Its like the difference between buying you own house, or renting a hotel suite to live in (a crummy & untrustworthy hotel at that).

Guerillas, as said in the thread specifically about Civ3PTW guerillas- I see as good units for infiltrating behind the enemy, and picking off damaged enemy units that have dissengaged, as well as pillaging. And also, I think they'd be well off with defence bonuses in mountains, forests and jungles- making em as good as or better then infantry for holding those terrain types. But again, guerillas attacking infantry directly, especially in cities- should be foolhardy and expensive.

Picture it- you could have dirty Nicaragua-type wars going, massing regular infantry on your side of the border (to intimidate the AI maybe) while pouring in invisible guerillas to screw things up, and mercs to exploit the situation from all sides!

Too bad there's no way to make guerillas be able to cause civil disorder when in a city radii as well.

Ozymandias · November 25, 2002, 17:35

Have them be VERY inexpensive but with a VERY high maintenance cost. Basically, you'd use them for short durations -- emergencies and/or quick wars -- and then disband them when done.

Thoughts?

-Oz

Usually Insane · November 26, 2002, 05:02

look at the tet offensive in vietnam for guidance of how good geurillas or partisans are in a cityfight. they shouldn't be easy to spot of course, like submarines on land. maybe a bonus when attacking units in forests or areas with no terraforming (i.e. roads, mines, forts)
to reflect the ambush nature

Usually Insane · November 26, 2002, 05:05

oh yeah about mercs, they should be pirates on land, maybe come in various guises, a whole range of mercs from numibian spearmen, condottieres, french foreign legion (not that they are mercenaries in the real sense but) modern day mercenaries, with some more nifty special ability

problem_child · November 26, 2002, 09:35

I considered that as well, now PTW has been put back on my island (the UK) it'll be even longer before I can finally test it, but for now I'm thinking if a specific merc unit don't work, maybe just make certain units transferrable, I'm thinking:

Swordsman, Cavalry, Tanks, Artillary & Cruise Missiles, Guerillas.

That way you got a merc for every era, units you can help your allies with. Tanks, Artilliary and Cruise would be more like genuin aid- like the USA supplied the UK with sherman tanks and now sells Abrahms to Isreal, or like generaly selling weapons to less industrialised nations, like Russia and China sells armour and guns to so much of the 3rd world. The drawback with just making some units tradable is that you cant make mercenary fighters (Guerillas, Cavalry, Swordsmen) be more expensive and slightly weaker, the 'poor deal' factor of mercs wouldn't be reflected (unless the AI pays out the nose for em in the diplo screen).