The 'No Trade, No Problem' Succession Game

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by DaveV
I don't understand the continuing fascination with irrigation

Sahara, Gobi...and the like
some people are afraid of getting thirsty
(though some others, like the Gits, aren't afraid of that at all, provided there are a few bottles nearby

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by DaveV

Black hat + HG = a very happy citizen. [rant]Unfortunately, some players went absolutely bonkers with irrigation and some cities have grown into unhappiness. I don't understand the continuing fascination with irrigation - have people been studying the AI's city management techniques? Repeat after me: shields, not food.[/rant]

@Stray: we weren't going for a high score game here; just use Elvis to keep cities out of disorder and continue cranking out the troops.

I can understand Straybow's "frustration", having noticed an earlier turn where the log mentions selling off many temples, etc; but when one looks at the .sav, those cities are now in revolt.

The rules say victory by conquest or AC; score isn't mentioned. So while your statement is technically true, it is also technically untrue. One thing is certain. In your super minimalist approach score is not a consideration.

No one can argue with how easy it makes city management. No need to check the city list every time. A critical mass of size 3 cities, each with an elvis, cranks out the units with no attention necessary. It goes almost by itself and keeps going 'til the cities hit their shield support limit. Very efficient. Also, very stark and grim. In the inevitable end you have created a machine. A "Metropolis."

If someone wanted to create something more out of the same resources, still winning in the same time frame, does that make them AI stupid??

If two players finish the same year, one with a rating of 95% and the other 195%, did they tie??

It's a clash of civilizations and each finds joy in their preferred style, the conflict coming because it is a Succession Game. It's just that the rant feels a bit fundamentalist, that's all.

(As contrasted with my rant, which is ever so much more accommodating )

[Straybow]

Dave: Yeah, happiness bug makes it survivable. More money would be nice.

Jrabbit: that's the problem. I did a quick save & reload experiment on Texcoco. It seems to take more than 3 suicide attacks to kill a defender, even with the first 2 being vet Cats. I'll keep building roads and ships to get troops up there, but I doubt I'll be able to do more than take Karakorum.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Straybow

Jrabbit: that's the problem. I did a quick save & reload experiment on Texcoco. It seems to take more than 3 suicide attacks to kill a defender, even with the first 2 being vet Cats. I'll keep building roads and ships to get troops up there, but I doubt I'll be able to do more than take Karakorum.

And IIRC, 6 to 8 vet crooks per defender. Very bloody.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Status report, Straybow?

quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

Special Rules: No Caravans, Freight, or Spies allowed. Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies. Tech trading and other forms of diplomacy are permitted. Victory condition can be either conquest, or AC.

Play List:

1. STYOM
2. DaveV
3. SG(2)
4. Jrabbit
5. SG[1]
6. Straybow
7. Hydey
8. La Fayette

[Straybow]

Status? STATUS!? "Friggin' monstrosity migration manager."

Currently reasoning with myself about cranking up the beakers to finish off Democracy and hope for Metallurgy next, but undecided because I know full well that won't be finished on my watch and most of the Cats and Crucs built meanwhile will be nearly useless…

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

So in other words, you're having fun?

I leave the micromanagement in your capable hands then

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Straybow
Status? STATUS!? "Friggin' monstrosity migration manager."

Currently reasoning with myself about cranking up the beakers to finish off Democracy and hope for Metallurgy next, but undecided because I know full well that won't be finished on my watch and most of the Cats and Crucs built meanwhile will be nearly useless…

Yeah, that would be unfortunate. But keep thinking. This "cat" is easily skinable with the 'right' knife.

[Scouse Gits]

Straybow ... think you've got problems. I'm up in the No Wonders game. Our dear friend the lagomorph has the ship launched whilst I'm down here like George W. with a world that hates me! I don't need any proof about weapons of mass distruction

------------------------

SG(2)

[-Jrabbit]

Just doing my bit to bring you a little fun and relaxation, with an ab-fab bonus opportunity to show us your extremely developed Civ abilities, you big, strong Scouser, you.

I await my stern tonguelashing with great anticipation.

[Straybow]

I finally decided to build a few Mkts/CHs for the larger cities. Just hate to see 6-8 corrupted arrows going down the drain. Currently cranking out an unbelievable number of units, but very few have arrived at the enemy's door.

[Straybow]

Non-vet crucs arriving up north get disbanded to make vet cats… it's a slow process with only a handful accumulated after 5 turns.

[La Fayette]

Pity to disband those crucs, even non vet.
They look so fierce on your picture that, if I were an Aztec woman, I would ask my husband to surrender.

[Scouse Gits]

Keep it up Stray - you will prosper...

SG[1]

[Straybow]

Tipped a few huts, got a Musketeer near Stray and gold at the others.

1700 Moscow destroyed, 87-ish gold plundered.
1710 Karakorum destroyed, 440 gold plundered.

Moscow had a couple Musketeers and a Phalanx. One other Musketeer hand wandered up to the polar band and fortified itself, and another Phalanx was in the fort nearby. A Cat was wandering southwards—the discovering Cruc are now pushing up daisies, but the others bypassed it easily.

Karakorum built a Cat and took out a Cruc. No Musketeers in sight, so they were crushed by large trojan bunnies hurled by improbably powerful catapults.

Tlax and Calix are maxed out—all shields devoted to supporting cats (well, including the one finished via disbanded cruc this turn). They aren't all in place on Tlatelolco's threshold yet. Maybe they'll be enough, maybe not.

La Fayette, those Crucs may look fierce, but the Musketeers standing up on the wall shall merely fart in their general direction. They shall mock the parentage of our mighty catapults. All shall perish in a hail of lead, with their measley 1 hp.

A new city on the far end of the gulf N of former Indian territories will speed up delivery of replacements nicely.

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Straybow

La Fayette, those Crucs may look fierce, but the Musketeers standing up on the wall shall merely fart in their general direction. They shall mock the parentage of our mighty catapults. All shall perish in a hail of lead, with their measley 1 hp.

I have no more confidence than anyone in the strength of crusaders in defence .
I was only refering to your choice of picture (crusaders in my game look much more quiet than yours )

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Nice turns Straybow ... Hydey is up!

[-Jrabbit]

Well done, Strayhorn!

Now, finish it off, Hydemaster!!

[Scouse Gits]

Stray - well done
Jrabbit - love the new avatar
Hydey - where are you?

SG[1]

[-Jrabbit]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Jrabbit - love the new avatar

SG[1]

New year, new look. Maybe a bit more in keeping with my Civ style.

Got lots of bunnies all caged up here, waiting to be let loose...

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I took a look at the save... and had an idea. Don't know if this would work, but since we have so many units floating around the remaining Aztec cities, why not try to cover all terrain and starve them down to manageable sizes?

I gather it's that, or wait for Metallurgy. Or accept the need for a 10:1 unit superiority on attack

quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

Special Rules: No Caravans, Freight, or Spies allowed. Diplomats are allowed exclusively for the purpose of establishing embassies. Tech trading and other forms of diplomacy are permitted. Victory condition can be either conquest, or AC.

Play List:

1. STYOM
2. DaveV
3. SG(2)
4. Jrabbit
5. SG[1]
6. Straybow
7. Hydey
8. La Fayette

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
I took a look at the save... and had an idea. Don't know if this would work, but since we have so many units floating around the remaining Aztec cities, why not try to cover all terrain and starve them down to manageable sizes?

I gather it's that, or wait for Metallurgy. Or accept the need for a 10:1 unit superiority on attack

[/q]

The Monk has been biting his tongue for pages, waiting (and suggesting) that someone try"rethinking" or "thinking outside the box". That is the key to victory. Cover all the shield squares and the city garrison disappears for lack of support. If you want I'll post a .sav with the image.

Now, will someone please end this thing while the Monk prays for all those disbanded crooks.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk




The Monk has been biting his tongue for pages, waiting (and suggesting) that someone try"rethinking" or "thinking outside the box". That is the key to victory. Cover all the shield squares and the city garrison disappears for lack of support. If you want I'll post a .sav with the image.

Now, will someone please end this thing while the Monk prays for all those disbanded crooks.

-------------------------------- STYOM

------------------- everyone else


Who would'a thunk it, me figgering it out!

[Scouse Gits]

A sound plot, but not one guaranteed success - the Aztecs can move to Monarchy and sustain three free defenders - quite enough if they are vet Musks - they have undeniable access to fishing grounds - actual starvation would be as slow as the build up of forces.

Now, I accept that the AI might well choose to remain in Republic and disband defensive units in order to build more settlers - it's usual response to food shortage - but would we get the same satisfaction from such a victory?

Let the lads have their glory! Ten vet Cats backed by thirty vet Crooks should be sufficient and we cannot be far from these figures now.

SG[1]

[Scouse Gits]

Oh and read Sun Tzu - there is always a need for 10 to 1 superiority on any attack - we just can't always have all that we need

SG[1]

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Well, if the turns get around to me again (unlikely, but possible if we try the head-on approach ), I'll give Monk's strategy a try. But to each his own... the beauty of succession games once again!

And if we can't find satisfaction when the AI does dumb things... I would then have to say we should stop playing CivII SP altogether!

Anyway, a siege of that sort seems quite realistic to me... starving out a garrison is a historically proven tactic AFAIK.

Hydey, where are you?

[Hydey]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

Hydey, where are you?

Here I am , sorry been busy will grab the save and have a go tonight

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
A sound plot, but not one guaranteed success - the Aztecs can move to Monarchy and sustain three free defenders - quite enough if they are vet Musks - they have undeniable access to fishing grounds - actual starvation would be as slow as the build up of forces.

Now, I accept that the AI might well choose to remain in Republic and disband defensive units in order to build more settlers - it's usual response to food shortage - but would we get the same satisfaction from such a victory?

Let the lads have their glory! Ten vet Cats backed by thirty vet Crooks should be sufficient and we cannot be far from these figures now.

SG[1]

You are correct to point out what the AI MIGHT do. Please don't take this the wrong way, but...They MIGHT have cleared the forest around their Capital in the previous 5700 years as well.

It was my experience, both in the 1730 'accidental' win and the 1630 win, in a replay doing everything the same except for the 1500 dateline discovery, that the AI stayed Republic. The idea is to cover his shield squares, not the food. Don't want to hurt the "soon to be my" city any more than necessary. The Monk must sometimes be bloody, but, is always humane.

It may be somewhat of a stretch, but the UN arms embargo against Iraq is a version of a shield siege. It also shows how important it is to cover all the shield tiles, er, loopholes.

In the 1730 game the shield siege had been in effect for a century while I waited for the supposed 1750 date. First one city fell, then a second, and finally, the Capital--that for many, many turns under seige--and the Aztecs stayed Republic. But, as they say, your mileage may vary.

As for "Let the lads have their glory!", that's part of what I was getting at earlier in my suggestion to "think outside the box." Like the British generals in WW1 who relished the "glory" of sending foot against machine guns, I suppose one MIGHT get a kick out of doing it the old fashioned way. The Monk offers this: there is no glory in senseless death.

Well, that's my two cents. But that's the beauty of Succession Games (and peanut galleries)...Fire when ready, sir!!

[Straybow]

Originally posted by La Fayette
I have no more confidence than anyone in the strength of crusaders in defence .
I was only refering to your choice of picture (crusaders in my game look much more quiet than yours )

I was referring to the offensive capabilities of our brave (or perhaps foolhardy) Crucs and Cats. After I ended my "official" turns I played 1730, sending all units within range to assault Tlatelolco. 8 cats and 11 crucs still left 3 Musketeers alive. Two were but slivers, the other was still in the yellow.

Icons: See the comfy old slippers thread below. Th0mas posted his whole units.gif; just right-click and save to the appropriate directory.

[Straybow]

Ahem: you may notice that I did pillage most of their irrigation and cover most of the land tiles aroung Tlatelolco and some around other cities.