Emporer is breaking me!

gsmoove23 · November 19, 2002, 19:30

I just broke into emporer and ouch! I don't know if this is true with everybody but I found its just impossible to be my strictly builder self and excel. I always play the Iroquois (my favourite, but not because of the mounted warriors, hardly ever used them until now) and I've just been battered around until very recently.

I finally broke down and decided to join the dark side. My last game, started out on a standard map with 8 civs. On my 5th city I decided I wasn't going to be a sap and build settlers anymore. Mass-produced mounted warriors and had a short controlled war to 'liberate' 3 Aztec neighbouring cities. Well, after this it became obvious to me that the Russians were not to be trusted, plus they had a few more techs then me and weren't willing to trade. After all I did have this army languishing and quickly becoming obsolete so I decided to start a slightly larger, but still controlled, war with Russia. This time I took 5 cities in as many turns, including Moscow. After this I wasn't quite pleased with the shape of my empire and thought a slight readjustment of borders would be beneficial. I 'liberated' 4 more Aztec cities including Tenochtitlan and razed 2 which were not ascetically placed at all. Further readjustments were made along my Russian border making it effectively no longer a Russian border.

Help me, I'm losing my faith!!

statusperfect · November 19, 2002, 19:50

I AM you father Luke. MOAHAWAWAHAHAHAHAAH!

alva · November 19, 2002, 20:39

If you wanna go buider, anything higher then monarch is very tough indeed. Not impossible, as Txurce has proven allready(on deity!!!

), but truly difficult

vmxa1 · November 19, 2002, 22:28

That is about the size of it. Emp/Deity are not as much fun to be a semi builder IMO. I have done it on emp with a super break of getting a settler on first hut. Otherwise I have to war. I never had that good of a start on deity and struggled in every one for each patch. With he settler I was able to get such a jump that they could not brow beat me like they do on deity.

joncnunn · November 20, 2002, 12:55

Well, if you get good enough starting terraign and enough of it without a fight, then you can stay peaceful, but you'll have to build a few military units just to keep the peace.

I'm doing quite well on Emperor level on a tiny map with only 10 cities, and haven't been at war with the AI that shared my contienant. Now, I have been at war with the AI on the othe contienant (Zulu), but that war consiting of telling him to remove his unit from my island, him declaring war, me killing that unit with one Chinese Rider, and no further attempts of an invasion for the rest of the war. (40 turns).

This was about as good terraign as I've seen, 5 of these city sites had a river going thru them, and this also was a near monopoly of Rubber. (But no Oil present, but that didn't matter nor did the only 2 local luxaries in my section matter with the money I built on discovering the cheap techs every 4 turns even with massive rush building. )

I'm now running 2:7:1 with 4600 gold running a deficit of 100 a turn with 4 turns to reserach last tech to get out of the Industrial Age. This is after the deal paying 60 GPT for Oil and another 30 GPT for 2 other luxaries. I can't get the other luxaries because my neighboring AI declared war on the Zulu and have destroyed all Zulu harbors. I didn't get any of the happy wonders, but did get both science wonders along with all industrial age ones.

vmxa1 · November 20, 2002, 13:51

I agree if you get a great start you can pull it off. It has been done on deity as well, although I have not tried builder only on that level.

Arrian · November 20, 2002, 14:05

Yeah, the jump from Monarch to Emperor was pretty daunting for me, even though I have no problem with warfare.

The major change I made was to finally start using "ultra-early war" as opposed to just "early war." Ultra-early war means nailing the first warrior/setter team I see. That gives me 2 workers and cripples 1 AI - making them a perfect punching bag for later. This is a long way from foolproof, but it works pretty well most of the time.

You can be a builder on Emperor, I've done it (under controlled circumstances, though), but it's hard and it requires the right situation.

When I feel like playing a "builder" style game, I drop down to Monarch.

-Arrian

ducki · November 20, 2002, 17:54

Quote:

Originally posted by joncnunn
I'm now running 2:7:1

What does that mean?

joncnunn · November 20, 2002, 18:11

70% Science slider + 10% luxary slider.

It's abrievated on the bottom right as 2.7.1 in the game.

ducki · November 20, 2002, 18:20

Oh, I get it. taxes:research:lux.
Never noticed it in the game, I'll have to look for that.

Thanks!

Chemical Ollie · November 21, 2002, 08:18

Quote:

Originally posted by gsmoove23
I just broke into emporer ... I always play the Iroquois (my favourite...

I finally broke down and decided to join the dark side...

Welcome to the darkness !

You have picked the right tribe. MWs rule! Some of my best emperor games were as Iroquis.

Charis · November 21, 2002, 09:36

It can be tough to play the builder game on Emperor, and the first games on a new difficulty are often very rough indeed.

Here's a few thoughts on it...
- Emperor definitely can be played (and won) non-aggressively with a builder mindset
- Chances are much greater however that you WILL get attacked at some point, often over a resource that the AI decides that it wants, or when you accidently bait them by leaving 24 workers out in the open building rails at the border
- Cave in early, cave in often. Pay the tribute. (Same advice given to those stepping up to Deity). Now mind you, if you're not adverse to fighting this advice is withdrawn, it's not like they're some superpower. Especially with Mounted Warriors! Heaven help the neighbor that demands tribute!
- EXPECT to be behind in tech. On Monarchy you can lead most of the way, on Emperor expect to trail, but not SO badly (first few games, badly, it's ok), and on Deity it's not uncommon to be almost a full era behind until you catch up and take control in the modern era
- Win conditions - Cultural gets a LOT harder just because the pace of the game is moving along so much faster. Diplomatic and Space Race are not bad at all on Emperor. I had a recent game with a cultural win (20K) on Emperor, BUT I needed a tank-era romp that wrested control of ALL Aluminum on the map!

No one was going to fly off to space until my capital was the cultural marvel of the world!
- I would suggest continuing to focus on the builder game if that's what you really enjoy, but I also recommend you learn how to use MW to kick some rear (actually, sounds like you're getting there!)
- Consider playing with one or two less civs than the map allows, giving you more time and space to get a nice core, peacefully

In what way are you running into trouble? Bullied in ancient era? Way behind on tech? Can't pull off a cultural win? Or does it just "feel" like you're way behind for half the game?

For an example of an Emperor game in great detail, here is a succession game of our group's first foray into that difficulty -- we tried to play nice and be builders in the beginning, no ancient war and we payed tribute.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...threadid=14502

Keep at it!
Charis

Robber Baron · November 21, 2002, 11:35

Quote:

Originally posted by alva848
If you wanna go buider, anything higher then monarch is very tough indeed. Not impossible, as Txurce has proven allready(on deity!!!

...

alva: Did Txurce write up an account of this game? Which thread was this? Sounds like one worth seeing.

edit: lol, found it just a few threads upstairs: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=59716

Theseus · November 21, 2002, 20:49

Quote:

Originally posted by gsmoove23
...After all I did have this army languishing and quickly becoming obsolete so I decided to start a slightly larger, but still controlled, war with Russia...

...After this I wasn't quite pleased with the shape of my empire and thought a slight readjustment of borders would be beneficial...

You are beyond redemption:

"If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

GhengisFarb™ · November 21, 2002, 21:51

In regards to a building gameplay on higher levels, I find that is my surest way to win.

On Diety level games I am always the poor pacifistic builder civ giving in to everyone's demands until they have allowed me to build a synergistic infrasystem and city base.

gsmoove23 · November 22, 2002, 13:31

Sorry about posting the thread and leaving it for a few days, my access to the internet is sporadic. So many great replies...

Well, after leaving Russia and the Aztecs with 2 cities each in a small peninsula that I call my virtually dead civ reserve I calmed down a bit. That and my next door neighbours,(after annhilating the Russians) the French, had reached Feudalism for some time already, so I decided to give my MWs a much needed rest until I could upgrade them to Cavs.

Now I could go back to my builder ways and I did for quite awhile. The French continued to be a thorn in my side simply because they were remaining consistently a few techs ahead with no willingness to trade for any reasonable price. I was playing with the idea of giving them a suitable whipping once I reached Mil Tradition and to my suprise I got it before the French.

I upgraded all my MWs instantly(only 9, still a builder at heart) and decided to attack with just that while I put all my cities to military production. The attack was underwhelming to say the least. I took 1 city and spent the next 5 turns repulsing Joans' counterattack. Luckily, the Americans on the other side were relatively strong and willing to help with a little incentive. Slowly we chipped away at her until I had 5 cities, including some valuable silks that my war weary citizens were happy to receive. I had planned to negotiate peace at this point but what the hell, anything I didn't take now would only go to the Americans...

All thats history now, I'm in the Modern Age, only 3 civs offer any challenge to me but I'm far ahead of everyone in techs and frankly, pretty startled at how easy this has been. The Babs on the other continent had far outpaced me in culture but the Zulus and Persians took care of that for me by virtually wiping them off the planet. I never realized being a war-monger was this easy. Before I had never gotten leaders in the early game so I ended up getting a lot of wonders I normally never see. I was able to build an FP earlier then I ever have. What's the challenge? Fair enough, I should try it without the Iroquois, but still...

gsmoove23 · November 22, 2002, 13:47

When I played builder on Emporer I am usually outpaced in early expansion (I've gotten better at that recently), outpaced in techs early in the game (though I can usually catch up later in the game), constantly hit up for protection fees (no prob, I got no pride) and out produced by the AI no matter what it seems.

One game when I was just beginning to experiment with a monger style I did pretty well. I was placed on a large continent with 5 other civs on a standard 8 civ map. I managed to do pretty well with peace all the way up to the modern age after cutting a sizable chunk out of the English early in the game. Then the world war came and I payed the price for neglecting my military to keep my head above water in the tech race. I had a respectably sized empire with a good number of high production cities but I couldn't keep up in unit production and it was an utter disaster.

What advantages does the AI get when you move up in difficulty levels? Do they get a military advantage, cause it seems like their units are stronger but that may be my imagination.

joncnunn · November 22, 2002, 14:35

The only adventages the AI gets on Emperor are:

1. Decreased Science cost.

2. Increased ("bonus") in a tech deal with another AI. (More frequent Tech trading among the AIs)

3. Some additional starting units.

4. An additional military use can enforce martial law.

5. Decreased production costs.

There are just as bad with the use of their military as they are on Emperor (and Deity) as in Regent.
(All you AI-military-unit bating techniques developed on lower levels still work.)

Arrian · November 22, 2002, 14:35

They do not get combat bonuses. They will have more units, so you will find fighting them harder - you will take more casualties simply because you have to kill more units.

They do get growth/production/science bonuses (+20% on Emperor), happiness (the AI plays on "regent" and thus can keep its people happier than you can on levels higher than regent), free units at the start, a boost to free unit support (even if they are republic/demo, they will have a certain number of units that are free), and of course the AI to AI trade factor (AI civs will accept less an less in a trade with another AI as the difficulty level increases).

It's good to hear things went well in your game.

-Arrian

DaveMcW · November 22, 2002, 15:03

The AI doesn't get cheap science on Emperor or any other difficulty level. Rather, the human's research cost is more expensive.

Arrian · November 22, 2002, 15:34

Ok, ok, you're right. It's a human handicap of 20%, not an AI bonus. Changed in the 1.21 patch, IIRC.

-Arrian

joncnunn · November 22, 2002, 16:19

Actually, the change is in 1.29f. And I thought it was only on Cheiftian level that the swap was made.