Letter of JEFF BRIGGS to the CIV COMMUNITY - Page 10

Velociryx · December 15, 2002, 15:44

I agree that there are probably "hidden bugs" in software that appears to be functioning normally (ie - bugs that the user remains unaware of, because they do not mess with the core functionality of a program). I don't have any problem with stuff like that. True, where bugs are concerned, less is better, but absolute perfection would be mightily hard to achieve.

What I have a problem with is when a company (ANY company) advertises a set of core features, and those core features are done in such a way that they render those core features unusable by a large number of folks who purchased the product in good faith.

Word Processors, for example. One of the key features in today's word processors is a Spell Check feature. So...if you shell out $60 for a spiffy word processor and it crashes say....half the time you try to spell check your document or change line spacing, then yes....something is wrong with that, IMO. That is qualitatively different than a bug that makes the machine use memory 15% less efficiently than optimal when the program is running.

-=Vel=-

vmxa1 · December 15, 2002, 16:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

Consumer laws are not ridiculous - they protect consumers from the kind of shabby behaviour Infogames has handed out to civ fans ever since they bought the franchise.

Once your economy matures and you throw off the shackles of communist prole "I'll take what I can get" thinking, you will realise the value of consumer laws

Could you show us where these consumer laws have done anything for anyone that bought IG's game, specifically Civ3 or PTW?
Most of these laws have only served to reduce product offerings and enrich lawers.

Alexander's Horse · December 15, 2002, 19:17

Quote:

Originally posted by vondrack

SOME "consumer-protection laws" are VERY ridiculous, believe me. Like the one that suggests translating all the manuals for whatever you sell into the local language (we do have such a law here, even if it is - fortunately - currently interpreted pretty reasonably with respect to software). Just imagine what it means... if your client needs a specialized piece of software worth $20, produced by a US company (i.e. in English)... you get it for him, paying with your VISA online, and then have to hire a translator and have the full docs translated (at the cost of hundreds of dollars). That is just plain RIDICULOUS.

I consider many laws like this stupid, because their sole purpose is to "protect" stupid people from their own stupidity (or inability to realize what they are doing when buying this or that), while in fact they just make things more complicated for normal people.

And for the record, I would consider a law that would make selling software, that includes bugs, illegal RIDICULOUS. Every piece of software contains at least one bug. Thus, software sales would be illegal as a whole.

That's why software is never sold as a "product" (like a refrigerator), but always as a "license" or "permission" (like a library access) to use it AS IS. Just read EULAs, it is always there.

I do hope that the smilie at the end of your post meant you were not serious about the last sentence

.

We aren't talking a few software bugs or translation difficulties - we're talking about whole advertised features that the company knew were inoperable when they released the product. Naughty, naughty.

Firaxis has been reading this thread - I'll bet they put the issue straight to their lawyers once I pointed out the breaches of the Australian Trade Practices Act. New Zealand has similar laws. Surprise, surprise, the game release date is delayed.

The Trade Practices Act btw is not consumer protection legislation - it is the law that regulates commerce in this country. And its a very powerful set of laws.

It never ceases to amaze me how you kiddies are prepared to bend over and take it from corporates like Infogreed.

We have never had these problems when other companies had the franchise.

Panag · December 15, 2002, 19:56

hi ,

the problem with any law is not going to be firaxis , lets get the really quilty ones , infogreed , .........

have a nice day

Alexander's Horse · December 15, 2002, 20:41

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1

Could you show us where these consumer laws have done anything for anyone that bought IG's game, specifically Civ3 or PTW?

Yes I can - as a result of consumer laws we will get a better product than was released in the U.S.

vondrack · December 16, 2002, 12:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Yes I can - as a result of consumer laws we will get a better product than was released in the U.S.

Do you have any PROOF that it's because of the consumer laws (that are actually not consumer laws, but laws regulating trade practises....

). I haven't seen a single credible source stating this. Just rumours. Not that I am stating the opposite, I would just like to see some credible source support your statement.

And as panag correctly pointed out in other words, I would bet Firaxis did absolutely nothing after reading your "warning". It would not be them who would be sued (if any legal action was to take place). And I seriously doubt anyone from IG is paying attention...

Alexander's Horse · December 16, 2002, 17:34

Hopefully one day you will understand the modern market economy

notyoueither · December 16, 2002, 17:39

Hopefully one day you will understand the need to back up your blatherings.

Alexander's Horse · December 16, 2002, 19:29

still embarrassed huh?

That red nose suits you.

player1 · December 16, 2002, 19:52

Stop flaming...

ALL of you.

notyoueither · December 16, 2002, 21:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
still embarrassed huh?

That red nose suits you.

Blah, blah, blah...

Let me know when you have something meaningful to say.

Velociryx · December 18, 2002, 10:47

With regards to the delayed release, and it's possible causes, I heard back from the New Zealand Ministry of Consumer affairs. The gist of the reply was that they (at least the place I wrote to) only tracked and reported on products that posed direct consumer safety threats. Obviously, software does not fall into that category, and so she referred me on to someone else.

No word yet, but in the meantime, let's examine what we know to be true.

1) We know that Q4 = big monies for retailers. Software is no exception to that.

2) We know (from a wide range of reports) that Infogreed is hurting for money

3) Based on 1 and 2, we can conclude that if they have a product ready (PTW) and they have a market they can get into during Q4 (New Zealand and Australia), then....they would. I mean, that represents bucks, yes? Bucks they obviously need!

But...they're not.

Based on points 1-2, we can pretty easily conclude that IF they're not (and we know they aren't until early to mid January), then it's not because they don't want to, but because they can't.

We know they've got a product "ready" (ie - for sale elsewhere around the globe), so that's not what's holding them up.

They've got resellers IN PLACE in both countries, so that's not holding them up.

So what's that leave?

Well, it either leaves us with
a) they've got more money than they need, and don't see any reason to rush to the NZ/AU market (which we know ain't the case)

or

b) something bigger than them is blocking their way (ie - government regulations)

Others?

-=Vel=-

vondrack · December 18, 2002, 11:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Others?

Vel, what about applying the same reasoning upon the European release of PtW? I guess you would inevitably come to exactly the same conclusion, even though the issue of consumer laws was never mentioned as far as the European release was concerned... European release pretty much missed Q4, too, even though there was no obvious reason...

Velociryx · December 18, 2002, 12:03

But is it not the case that both the Italian AND UK versions are, in fact, on sale right now in Europe? And given the state of the EU, pretty much anybody in Europe can get their hands on either? (I'm asking here, cos I really don't know, but that's my understanding of it). I mean, as I understand it right now, there ARE versions for sale in Europe, during Q4...the same cannot be said for NZ and AU.

-=Vel=-

vondrack · December 18, 2002, 12:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
But is it not the case that both the Italian AND UK versions are, in fact, on sale right now in Europe? And given the state of the EU, pretty much anybody in Europe can get their hands on either? (I'm asking here, cos I really don't know, but that's my understanding of it). I mean, as I understand it right now, there ARE versions for sale in Europe, during Q4...the same cannot be said for NZ and AU.

Yes, you can buy PtW in Europe now. But the game was officially released around Dec 13, IIRC. That is: too late for any real Q4 sales, more than one month later than in the US. There was a significant delay, yet you do not relate it to issues with European consumer laws.

I am trying to suggest that there may very well be more than "a consumer law issue" involved in the delayed release date in Australia and New Zealand. Perhaps Infogrames Australia decided that instead of releasing the game just few days before Christmas, it would be better to wait till January - 'cause then, the PtW release might get more press attention, as there will be less new titles coming out. Q4 sales effectively gone either way (releasing a product on Dec 13 is NOT releasing it in time for the Christmas sales, believe me - I have done that, too...), I would consider such reasoning reasonable.

Even the abovementioned lack of funds may actually play a role... but in a different way. IG Australia may be low on cash, having troubles manufacturing a new title - at least until January, when money from Christmas sales get into their pockets. If you release a title on Dec 13, you get ZERO revenue in that year (this is true at least here), but you still have to pay for the CDs, boxes etc. to be manufactured in that year. They might have decided it was not worth the hassle.

I mean, Vel, your construction few posts back looks nice, but it is very far from a complete analysis - your conclusion may be worth considering as a possible cause of the delay, but is definitely not acceptable as the only possible one.

Velociryx · December 18, 2002, 13:08

Good points all round.

I realize that Dec 13th is a mite late for a HUGE amount of sales, that is true, but sales are sales, and even two weeks of selling during the Christmas selling season is better than nothing at all (LOTS of last minute shoppers, and an increasing number of internet shoppers too!). This, for a company in dire financial straits would seem a tempting lure indeed, I would think (money's money, after all, and if you need more to stay alive, then you'll grasp at what sales you can get, I would think).

And I readily admit that my analysis of the situation is but one possibility...thus, the question posed....what else? What other possibilities could there be?

It's true that sales would be limited or that money might be tight, but to release now would at least be to snag those last minute shoppers, and the game could still be hyped in early January too.

Nz and Au might not be *enormous* software markets, but if the mechanism is in place, it seems silly NOT to sell....if you're financially sick, you need to get money, and in IG's case, they get that by selling product ASAP, not by sitting firm.

As I understood at least *part* of the delay release in Europe was due to translation delays (German and Italian versions), but my understanding is that the game will be released in English in both NZ and AU....so no such translation delay there).

-=Vel=-

FNBrown · December 18, 2002, 13:59

I really wish the Infogrames people were reading this... It's a foregone conclusion that the Firaxis staff we do have lurking about can't really comment. It'd be nice to see the game publisher come forward and actually say something about all of this mess...

Panag · December 18, 2002, 14:04

Quote:

Originally posted by FNBrown
I really wish the Infogrames people were reading this... It's a foregone conclusion that the Firaxis staff we do have lurking about can't really comment. It'd be nice to see the game publisher come forward and actually say something about all of this mess...

hi ,

, when you look at the stockexchange for firaxis you can see the ups and downs , .......

its a given fact that some investers read what we put down and check for themselfs , as a result infogrames loses points , ......

have a nice day

SMIFFGIG · December 18, 2002, 14:07

hi ,

oh

have a nice day

FNBrown · December 18, 2002, 19:07

Guess the Mod's decided to "un-stick" this thread....

Probably for the best... it was turning into a flame war anyway...

Alexander's Horse · December 19, 2002, 00:27

I hope one day some Firaxian from the development team will give us the inside story on what happened with Civ 3 and PTW - both releases were troubled - they must have views about it - did Infogames force them to release against objections for example etc.

War4ever · December 19, 2002, 00:37

its all about captialism.....and consumerism

FNBrown · December 19, 2002, 13:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
I hope one day some Firaxian from the development team will give us the inside story on what happened with Civ 3 and PTW - both releases were troubled - they must have views about it - did Infogames force them to release against objections for example etc.

Eh... they're probably all bound by iron-clad non-disclosure agreements. We'll never know.