Need some help on a bad start.

ArmaGeddin · November 21, 2002, 14:10

Well, my latest game is going real bad. (sigh)

I'm stuck between a jungle to the south, a mountain range to the north and west, and a desert to the east. The moutains and the jungle are both vast, and there is a civ just over the desert from me sucking up all the good land over there. Im trying to get REX going dropping cities in at 2 spaces apart just to get enough of a base to fight my way out.

Things don't look so good though.......

I played through once and by the Middle Ages I was so far behind I bailed out and restarted again.

OK, I keep reading about how some of you masters win these bad start games with limited cities. In fact one guy keeps talking about a single city win.

Questions:

How do you keep up in tech when I have such a limited science base? (only 6 cities) Once I get past Education and I loose the GL I get behind fast. I dont have any tech to trade because of my low science, so how do I keep up?

punkbass2000 · November 21, 2002, 14:17

What level?

punkbass2000 · November 21, 2002, 14:19

Oh, World Size and civ are important too.

Dominae · November 21, 2002, 14:22

Winning with bad starts involves a great deal of diplomacy and a greater deal of warfare. If you're stuck at 6 cities, you're going to need to do some conquest to obtain more land. When in such a weak position, make sure you sign alliances when declaring war. This will prevent the enemy civ from focusing all its military might against you.

Don't despair if you're technologically behind the AI, even if their units outmatch yours. The way the game is designed the underdogs can still compete in the power race. This is especially true with the new Medieval Infantry unit and upgrade path (althoug the Longbowmen are probably more important because they require no resources).

Oh, and concerning victories with just one city, most of them involve amazing starting locations. I doubt any player can win OCC games consistently with arbitrary starts.

Dominae

vmxa1 · November 21, 2002, 14:36

Two tiles apart, ouch. What level, what map size, what civ? Post a save for the 4000bc. Is it PTW?

Killerdaffy · November 21, 2002, 14:41

Depending on world size, difficulty and availability of resources a very early archer/horseman/swordman rush might get you out of your confinement. If you are very lucky and get a leader in the process you could even move the center of your empire to one of the conquered capitals.

ArmaGeddin · November 21, 2002, 14:45

Background:

Germans
Monarch level.
Standard map size.
Middle of the road age and climate.

I played Germans because I wanted to try out those tanks.

An Archer attack failed for me because I could not get my archers across the jungle or the mountains or the desert before the enemy had Swordsmen and could blunt my attack. I could not figure out a way to have enough workers to build the roads through the wasteland and still have enough production to build Archers and Spearmen for the attack. By the time I got there with my attacking force they whacked me with Swordsmen.

So I built up my 6 cities and went for the GL. I got it and then went for Monarchy and saved my money. Once I got to Monarchy I spent my cash on improvments on my cities and launched a Knight attack on the civ arcoss the desert from me. About that time almost everyone on the map declare war on me and I had to pull back and defend for many turns. I figure because I didn't have a large army I was seen as an easy target. Even those I had ROPs with and was polite with attacked me.

So I fought them off for a while and then I realized I was spending all my time fighting and gaining nothing and I quit out to restart. (sigh).

jshelr · November 21, 2002, 14:58

You have a tough one on your hands. It's difficult to be on bad turf and far away from neighbors without horses. The second problem is as bad or worse than the first problem.

Sounds like you are being resourceful. Getting the GL was very good. If you had been a little more lucky on the diplomacy front, you could have been among the group of civs that were picking on the hapless lone loser. Note how that played a key role in the classic So Cold game. It's key, as noted above, if you are a little guy, to watch for an opportunity to join a war or to get alliances as soon as you are in one.

If there is one secret ingredient to a come from behind win it is patience. You need grovel and deal, to make a little progress constantly, until you are in position to go for the ultimate victory.

joncnunn · November 21, 2002, 15:18

Well, the Jungle can be cleared into grassland. But since your not an industrious civ, you'll need a lot of workers to do so and it's probably easier to take over an oppoenents good land first.

Too me, it looks like the same turn you declared war on that AI, you should have contacted as many civs you can and pay them to join your war against that AI. Yes, this may cut down on the number of cities you get, but it will keep them from attacking you.

ducki · November 21, 2002, 15:25

Also, you can defeat swordsmen with Archers, but you need some good terrain and numbers advantages.

Definitely get one of your enemy's neighbor's in on the attack, if possible.

How 'bout a screenshot or a SAV or both(many here don't have PtW and some are on Mac, stuck at 1.17, I think.)

Sure does sound tough, I'd love to see it.

Arrian · November 21, 2002, 15:25

Damn, you tried the two things I could think of. I read your game settings post and immediately thought "archer rush." You tried that, and failed.

Then you tried a GL-powered buildup for a knight attack, which also backfired. All I can say is ouch.

If anyone is qualified to comment, however, it would be Aeson.

-Arrian

Killerdaffy · November 21, 2002, 16:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Damn, you tried the two things I could think of. I read your game settings post and immediately thought "archer rush." You tried that, and failed.

Then you tried a GL-powered buildup for a knight attack, which also backfired. All I can say is ouch.

If anyone is qualified to comment, however, it would be Aeson.

-Arrian

After some time on 'Poly the instinctive reactions converge.

It sounds like a challenge, I'd also love to give it a try if you could post the savegame.

ManicStarSeed · November 21, 2002, 17:33

Since you are a scientific civ, have you tried for swordsmen (1 tech away) and use them for the rush?

I would build some barracks first..

Mss

Killerdaffy · November 21, 2002, 18:13

Quote:

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed
Since you are a scientific civ, have you tried for swordsmen (1 tech away) and use them for the rush?

I would build some barracks first..

Mss

Research Iron Working at 10% (or the minimum to get one beaker) and build lots of veteran Warriors. After 40 turns use the saved money to upgrade everything to Swordsmen and send them off - makes for a really nasty surprise for your neighbor.

Arrian · November 21, 2002, 18:21

The real question is did he have iron?

If so, the vet warrior upgrade is a solid choice. If not, that's probably why he didn't try it.

-Arrian

ManicStarSeed · November 21, 2002, 18:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
The real question is did he have iron?.....

-Arrian

He would have to in order to get knights...

Mss

Killerdaffy · November 21, 2002, 18:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
The real question is did he have iron?

If so, the vet warrior upgrade is a solid choice. If not, that's probably why he didn't try it.

-Arrian

Agreed, it's a risky strategy if you aren't certain that you have iron close by. It works best for Scientific + Industrious (i.e. Ottomans, Persia would trigger ancient/despot GA), since it means that even far-away iron can be connected quickly. Being militaristic, however, at least gives cheap barracks.

Theseus · November 21, 2002, 21:06

Post a SAV... let's have some fun.

nbarclay · November 21, 2002, 21:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Post a SAV... let's have some fun.

Seconded.

Killerdaffy · November 21, 2002, 21:52

An inofficial AU game?

Arrian · November 22, 2002, 10:14

Is this a 1.29 game or a PTW game?

-Arrian

planetfall · November 22, 2002, 13:56

Armageddon,

Your basic problem is chosen play strategy does not match chosen civ and game location.

How do I know? I only play the Germans now. I have finished a couple monarch games. I know what is more likely to work and not work with Germany.

1-- archer rush
Most likely to fail unless close to only AI civ and don't raging barbs. Why? It takes too long to build roads and needed military units.

2-- knight rush
Also likely to fail unless you play the ancient era well and have a good stating position. Why? Germany takes time to build and knights are too expensive and not too effective vs pikemen.

Ok, so what would I do?

1. Review chosen civ strengths and weaknesses:
a. great UU, but late in game
b. military is cheap
c. workers are avg
d. good science

2. Time your battles
Ancient era--
Horseman rush: build cash and upgrade chariots
Middle ages--
Cav + med inf.
I don't like MA wars as Germany so I just bide my time and build for the Indust ages.
Ind ages--
Panzers and infantry. Pre panzers build infantry. For more details see:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...7&pagenumber=2

3. Specifically, what I would do in this game:

1) -- build mini cities as you did,
2) -- build sufficient workers. I don't know how many you had, but with 6 cities you need at least 10. 1/city and 4 for military road construction.
3) -- ROP? why?? at best you will have an average militry. More likely to be weak. Asking for too much trouble. I never think the AI pays enough for the risk. Unless in this game you can march settler pairs thru land to new promised land. Don't think it would be available as AI is fairly fast in planting cities at Monarch level.
4) -- #1 priority will be keeping military at least "average". You need alliances. Happiness improvements can come later. First you need to survive.
5)-- improvements and knights. That will work at lower levels but not at monarch. Either go for knights and knight rush or improve and bide time until better time. I would say forget knights. If you want MA war, go for Mil Tradition. Then the military academy will be great advantage.
6)-- claim jungles!! These are your most reasonable opportunity for power. First get the land so AI doesn't. Remember rubber. Jungles == rubber. Panzers need rubber. Jungles == good, good, good. Naturally you will need 2 workers each jungle city, but you can start with one.

That should be enough to get you started. Without a sav file or posted minimap or more details it is difficult to give you more advice. Don't give up, it is fun to play with panzers.

== PF

Aeson · November 22, 2002, 15:48

Quote:

So I built up my 6 cities and went for the GL. I got it and then went for Monarchy and saved my money. Once I got to Monarchy I spent my cash on improvments on my cities and launched a Knight attack on the civ arcoss the desert from me.

Without seeing a save it's hard to say, but I think this is where your problem lies. For a good Knight rush, all your gold should be reserved for upgrading Horsemen, and all your builds should be Barracks and then Chariots/Horsemen. After upgrading to Knights, voluntarily cut off your Iron and start building more Horsemen to be upgraded if you still have the cash. If you set your high production cities to building their Knights before cutting off the Iron, you can have a hybrid production of Knights/Horsemen that your income should easily be able to keep up with.

Having the GL will enable you to save up plenty of gold for this purpose, but that's 400 shields which could mean 20 chariots or 40 warriors instead. Best to let the AI's build it for you, and take it with the units. Don't worry about falling behind in tech after Iron Working (or Horseback Riding), as all those techs aren't going to help the AI any until they hit Feudalism. Just make sure to take the GL before then.

With 6 cities on a standard map, 30 Horsemen and 2400 gold is a good target for when Chivalry comes around. 30 Knights should easily take out a non-gunpowder AI on those settings very quickly. Just never leave troops (you can garrison the city the turn it is taken, as it never will flip until after the next turn)inside the conquered cities until after you've completely wiped that AI out, as your culture will be lacking most likely.

Starting in a bad terrain position makes warfare all the more important. Archer 'rushes' can be useful, but probably won't win you a lot of territory, so never dump too much production into them. Warriors or Chariots are definitely the units that you should focus on building. I like a hybrid Sword/Knight rush. The units you build early are Warriors, for scouting and city garrisons. Then by the time you're ready to upgrade, switch to Chariots to replace the Warriors as garrisons, and use your new Swordsmen to take out a nearby civ.

planetfall · November 22, 2002, 16:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeson

After upgrading to Knights, voluntarily cut off your Iron and start building more Horsemen to be upgraded if you still have the cash.

What a great tactic! Too often I have a large treasury but production of good units takes too long to be effective. Would also work for rifleman -> infantry

How can I use this idea next game? Hummmm...

== PF

ArmaGeddin · November 22, 2002, 17:26

Wow!

First off I would like to thank everyone that wrote in all the great strategy comments! This thread has turned into a GREAT strategy thread on winning from a bad start.

Second, I have some bad news for some of you that wanted the save game file for the start of this game. I don't have it. (sigh) I was playing an MP game last night with a friend and, while my mind was on automatic, I kind of like.... You know..... Saved over it.

/em ducks his head down to avoid thrown bricks.

I have one save file I always save for the start of games, and when the MP game started, I did what I always do at the start of a game.... and saved.

I'm really sorry, I know alot of you wanted to try that game out.

planetfall · November 22, 2002, 17:34

There's always next game.

It was interesting to think of "what would you do if".



Next time, ...civ3\saves\

           ...civ3\forumquestionsaves\

== PF

ArmaGeddin · November 22, 2002, 17:37

I agree.....

I think i'm going to save out a special save at the start of each game just for the forum. That way I can always go back to show you all what happened. I will also start saving at turning points and places where something special happens.

ManicStarSeed · November 22, 2002, 19:11

Quote:

Originally posted by ArmaGeddin

....I kind of like.... You know..... Saved over it....

Doh!!

planetfall · November 25, 2002, 12:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeson

Best to let the AI's build it for you, and take it with the units. Don't worry about falling behind in tech after Iron Working (or Horseback Riding), as all those techs aren't going to help the AI any until they hit Feudalism. Just make sure to take the GL before then.

With 6 cities on a standard map, 30 Horsemen and 2400 gold is a good target for when Chivalry comes around. 30 Knights should easily take out a non-gunpowder AI on those settings very quickly. Just never leave troops (you can garrison the city the turn it is taken, as it never will flip until after the next turn)inside the conquered cities until after you've completely wiped that AI out, as your culture will be lacking most likely.

I like a hybrid Sword/Knight rush. The units you build early are Warriors, for scouting and city garrisons. Then by the time you're ready to upgrade, switch to Chariots to replace the Warriors as garrisons, and use your new Swordsmen to take out a nearby civ.

Sometimes it is dangerous to skim read notes. I skimmed Aeson's comments and thought I would give them a try.

Situation:
Monarch, 6 civs, playing Germany.

5 civs known, in a large C shaped land mass.

Techs-- 5 behind.

Layout:



    Iroquios .. Rome

   .

   Germany

     ....  India..Aztecs

India was very weak and had 2 techs I didn't have. Ok, let's try Aeson's idea. Built 30 chariots. Falling further and further behind in tech/power. Ah but Aeson says it works, so keep on. Finally about 100BC had 30 chariots, upgraded them all to horses. Took out 4 Indian cities. No problem...opps. Big problems:

1. other civs are republics and I am still in despotism,
2. bribed Aztec to ally vs India. Big mistake, they now have at least one army and took the techs and land from India
3. I only got 1 city and no techs. Turns out India capital and core cities were on the other side of the Aztecs. I got gems and wasted 3 size 1 cities. Ugh.

Lessons:
1. If going to take on even a weak civ make sure you know at least where the capital is.
2. Alliances with Aztecs not really good.
3. If 6 techs down, horseman rush no good.
4. May either want to wait for knights or play differently.

I replayed from 750bc to 10bc. This time left India alone so Aztecs would have someone else to harrass besides me. Not getting any GW, and still behind in techs, but:
1. 4 techs behind instead of 5,
2. still got gems
3. GNP is now 57 instead of 50
4. score is about same 343 vs 338, but have 3 city line blocking aztecs and some open space others will need navy to get to.

New annoying strategy by AI
In this game the AI's are $%&!!heads. They develop up to border BUT do not road the last tile so you can't trade with them. I have never not been able to trade luxuries before. Real pain as I don't have harbors yet. Both aztec and Iroquois are following this strategy.

Anyone else seen this? Good counter strategy?

== PF

Brizey · November 25, 2002, 18:34

Counter strategy to road thing: just build it yourself. Most of the time the AI will complain about your unit. Just say that you will move it then build the road anyway.

Also, Knights are effective against pikemen. Even musketmen. Retreat of a veteran unit is powerful when they are in large stacks.