The shame nations of WWII.

Bereta_Eder · November 21, 2002, 17:43

Which were the countries which colaborated with the nazis and helped actively in the killing of peoples and the extermination of Jews?

I know 4.

Sweden, Finland, Norway and Croatia.

Were they any others?

Thanks.

monkspider · November 21, 2002, 17:44

I don't think Finland actively collaborated with the Germans.
I think Switzerland may need to be added to that list though.

loinburger · November 21, 2002, 17:47

Quote:

Originally posted by monkspider
I don't think Finland actively collaborated with the Germans.

They collaborated (AFAIK they considered Stalin to be the greater threat). That's why they were finlandized after the war.

paiktis: I think that France may have also collaborated. Certainly the Vichy collaborated.

BeBro · November 21, 2002, 17:48

I thought Norway was conquered by German forces, so I´m not sure if they can count as colaborators.

Lord Merciless · November 21, 2002, 17:49

Hungary shipped at least 75% of its Jews to the Nazis.

Balts(Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia) were willing executioners of Nazis. Some of their actions even caused "Einsatzkommandos" to object.

chequita guevara · November 21, 2002, 17:50

Austria definately. The Nazis had more support in Austria than they had in Germany. Most countries had Quislings of some sort, and the officials there would participate in rounding up and sending off the Jews. Even countries like Denmark and the Netherlands had people who helped the Nazis find Jews, even as both countries largely tried to hide their Jews.

Boris Godunov · November 21, 2002, 17:52

Finland was a "co-combatant" with Germany, but the question is did they collaborate with rounding up the Jews for extermination. To my knowledge, they did not. When Himmler demanded they do so, they refused.

Paitkis's list as only 2 correct ones, Norway and Croatia, and Norway did so because it was under direct occupation by the Nazis.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.jsp?ModuleId=10005466

COLLABORATION

In Europe, antisemitism, nationalism, ethnic hatred, anti-communism, and opportunism induced citizens of nations occupied by Germany to collaborate with the Nazis in the genocide of Europe's Jews. Such collaboration was a crucial element of the "Final Solution". Collaborators committed some of the worst atrocities of the Holocaust.
A number of German allies (the Axis countries) cooperated with the Nazis by promulgating and enforcing anti-Jewish legislation and by assisting in the deportation of Jews to extermination camps. In German-allied states, fascist paramilitary organizations terrorized, robbed, and murdered local Jews, either under German guidance or on their own initiative. The Hlinka Guard in Slovakia, the Iron Guard in Romania, the Ustasa in Croatia, and the Arrow Cross in Hungary were responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews in their home territory.

The pro-Nazi Ustasa government of Croatia built its own concentration camps. By the end of 1941, two-thirds of Croatia's Jews (more than 25,000) were deported to the camps. Most were killed on arrival. The Croats also killed at least 250,000 Serbs.

The collaborationist regimes of Italy and Hungary did not hand over Jews for deportation until Germany directly occupied those countries. Bulgaria cooperated with the Nazis in deporting foreign Jews, but would not deport Jews with Bulgarian citizenship. Romanian police and military units murdered both deported Romanian Jews and Ukrainian Jews in Romanian-occupied Ukraine, but refused to deport Jews in Romania proper.

In addition to the Axis nations, many people in the Nazi-occupied countries collaborated with the Nazis. Baltic and Ukrainian collaborators played an especially significant role in killing Jews throughout eastern Europe. Many served as guards in extermination camps and were involved in the gassing of hundreds of thousands of Jews. Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Belorussians, and Ukrainians spontaneously formed groups which the German SS and police then organized; these units became ruthless and reliable police auxiliaries that supported the SS and German police in the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Jews in the occupied Soviet Union.

The government of Vichy France cooperated with the Nazis by enacting the Statut des Juifs (Jewish Law), which defined Jews by race and restricted their rights. Vichy authorities also actively collaborated by establishing internment camps in southern France, arresting foreign Jews and French Jews, and aiding in the deportation of Jews (mostly foreign Jews residing in France) to extermination camps in occupied Poland.
After the German invasion of Norway in April 1940, Vidkun Quisling, a Norwegian fascist, proclaimed himself prime minister. The Germans quickly became disillusioned with him and established their own administration, but intermittently used Quisling as a figurehead. Norwegian police and paramilitary formations assisted SS and German police units in the deportation of Jews to Auschwitz-Birkenau.

The collaboration of Axis nations and pro-Nazi governments was essential for the Nazis to implement the "Final Solution." Pro-Nazi governments and police aided in the arrest and deportation of Jews to extermination camps, actively participated in the murder of Jews, and in several cases committed atrocities against their Jewish fellow citizens within their own national borders."

Sonic · November 21, 2002, 17:56

Lord Merciless, no, Lithuanians weren't "willing executioners" of nazis. Exact opposite was true, most of Lithuanian people helped Jews to escape from nazis. It seems you have believed to Serb's anti-Lithuanian propaganda...

Lord Merciless · November 21, 2002, 17:57

Yes, Austria. It's definitely the most shameful country. First, it produced Hitler, then hordes of SS troops, and finally, denied any responsiblities after the war.

monkspider · November 21, 2002, 17:58

Weren't the Swedes actually strongly on the side of the allies? I could be wrong, my recollection of Scandinavian involvement in WW II is a tad bit fuzzy.

chequita guevara · November 21, 2002, 18:05

The Swedes were surrounded by the Nazis, and knew which way the wind was blowing. They were the principle supplier of arms for the Nazis.

They saved a lot of Jews from the Nazis, however. If you could get to Sweden, they pretty much accepted you.

VetLegion · November 21, 2002, 18:25

Quote:

Were they any others?

Greeks. Every criminal law says that a crime can be commited by 'acting' or 'not acting'

Greeks, in their tradition of ethnic cleansing and mindless nationalism thought of large jewish communities of Thessaloniki as a 'problem' and were thankful to the Germans to do their dirty work.

OneFootInTheGrave · November 21, 2002, 18:36

Greeks

http://www.hellas.org/news/1998/

Quote:

Ravaged by the vicious and unending propaganda, most people have succumbed to the Zionist lies that the Jewish people have been victimized by just about every ethnic group! In their attempt to instill that belief in the Hellenic nation, they have launched a campaign of book publications and "memorial" raisings in Hellas and abroad.

The Holocaust Museum in the United States had an exhibit on the Jewish "experience" in war-torn World War II Hellas. Authors like Stanford Shaw (Greeks and Jews during WWII), Fred Reed (Salonica Terminus), and Anastasia Karakasidou (Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood) present a negative view of Hellenic actions during the Second World War. On top of creating this myth of "ancient" Jewish communities in Hellenic lands like Thessaloniki and Rhodes, they are also propagating the lie of Hellenic collaboration with Nazis and their "final solution".

Perhaps more "tame" in his accusations is Dr. Michael Matsas (dentist). In his new book "The Illusion of Safety : The Story of the Greek Jews During the Second World War", published by Pella Publishing Company, he gives an account of his experiences during the war (as a child), and the conclusions he has drawn from them.

In Dr. Matsas book presentation, conducted on Thursday January 22 at Hunter College in New York City (which was attended by the editor of the Hellenic Nationalist Page), more such propaganda was (attempted to be) introduced. Presenter at the event was Jim Koutroulakis, and "guest speaker" Steve Boweman. Mr. Boweman is a Professor of Judaic Studies at the University of Cincinnati (who will soon release his work on the "Jews of Byzantium").

Dr. Matsas contended that out of the "77,000 Jews" in Hellas prior to WWII, 65,000 of them fell casualties to the acts of Germans and Hellene collaborators ("thousands of Greek traitors" as he stated). When asked about the role of the Bulgarians and Italians, he asserted that they harmed no Jews. Dr. Matsas went on to say that had the allies informed the Jews of the acts of the Nazis ("holocaust"), they could have fled to the Italian and Bulgarian occupation zones in Hellas to seek protection!

Proof used for his assumptions was the "fact" that Jews in Bulgaria were not sent off to concentration camps, and that Jews that sought protection at the Italian consulate in Thessaloniki were aided. When confronted to answer why the Jews of Thessaloniki refused to declare themselves "Bulgars" (and thus avoid being sent to concentration camps) when asked by the Bulgarian administration, he stated that they were "proud Hellenes"! To that the editor of this page responded with "How proud could they have been if they were Hellenic citizens for less than a generation?"

The pleasant surprise was that out of the 50 people in the room, half were Hellenic patriots there to rebuff any attempt at anti-Hellenic propaganda! When one individual suggested that the Christian community of Hellas was "historically anti-Semitic", a Hellenic patriot rouse to describe his father's actions to smuggle and protect Jews in occupied Hellas.

This is the thanks and gratitude we receive for aiding the Jewish community in their time of need (as if we didn't need it ourselves), and for the memorials we create for them. While a memorial exists in Thessaloniki for the "65,000" Helladic Jews that died during the war, where is the memorial for the 600,000 Christian Orthodox Hellenes who died at the hands of the Italians, Germans, and Bulgarians? Where is the memorial for the hundreds of thousands of Pontian Hellenes (in a city largely populated by their descendents) that died at the hands of the Turks?

The only way for the Nation to survive is by honoring and commemorating the women and men that gave their lives for our country. Not by "honoring" our dubious "friends".

this is a Greek that tries to argue that 65000 killed Jews of pre war 75000 Jews was just a Zionist lie

Quote:

most people have succumbed to the Zionist lies that the Jewish people have been victimized by just about every ethnic group

Ah another Shame Nation... at least in Croatia 1/3 of the Jews survived.

perhaps because it was helped by local people who did not support the Quisling government, (unlike in Greece)

hey only 1/6th survived there....

chequita guevara · November 21, 2002, 18:42

myth of ancient jewish communities in Salonika? Okay, so living in the city 400 years doesn't make it an ancint community? For a long time, the City was a Jewish city, as the Greeks fled when it fell to the Turks in the 15th Century. The main language in Solonika was Spanish.

Gotta love Greek hate propaganda.

VetLegion · November 21, 2002, 18:50

I hope you folks are aware paiktis -the troll megamachine- produced this thread with only one purpose - trolling WWII Croatia.

Is anyone interested in serious discussion about the subject? I can start a thread.

OFITG, I browsed the internet a little and found following claims

- there was a large jewish population in Greece before wwII (much larger then in all ex-yugoslavia)

- most were in big cities, Thessaloniki and Athens

- they were not liked in Greece

- in areas occupied by Germany they were systematicaly exterminated, in areas occupied by Italy they were mostly saved

- Greek officials did nothing of mention to save these people

- Officials are quoted as saying it was 'good riddance'

- There was smuggling with boats, but Greeks charged high prices to transport jews

etc.

Given enough time and effort, I bet you I can find particulary nasty examples and dirty details. But I dont wish to participate in a stupid spitting contest. This troll will go without my assistance.

as I said, I am open to serious Croatia wwII discussion if anyone wants it.

Mihai · November 21, 2002, 19:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Romanian police and military units murdered both deported Romanian Jews and Ukrainian Jews in Romanian-occupied Ukraine, but refused to deport Jews in Romania proper.

AFAIK jews in Bessarabia were acusated to active help of soviets in 1940. I don't have much info about romanian army east of Prut river (communist tried to skip that shameful attack against Soviet Union

).
Fortunately marshall Antonescu was a career oficer with reason and he succeded to defeat a fascist rebelion (in just those 2 days of the rebelion over 2,000 jews were killed by legionares = romanians fascists).
Anyway there was some antisemitism then as now (jews conspire to control the country/world etc)

Gangerolf · November 21, 2002, 19:34

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
Which were the countries which colaborated with the nazis and helped actively in the killing of peoples and the extermination of Jews?

I know 4.

Sweden, Finland, Norway and Croatia.

Were they any others?

Thanks.

**** off.

Norway was occupied by the Germans, it was they and some collaborators who deported Jews. You can't say that Norway "colaborated with the nazis and helped actively in the killing of peoples and the extermination of Jews".

tinyp3nis · November 21, 2002, 19:39

Quote:

I hope you folks are aware paiktis -the troll megamachine- produced this thread with only one purpose - trolling WWII Croatia.

Yes, but not just Croatia. Gangerolf for example certainly didn't like what paiktis had to say

Frankychan · November 21, 2002, 19:42

Another "Let's Blame someone for atrocities" thread.

You guys are forgetting Comrade Stalin and Mother Russia. (sorry Tass)

Gangerolf · November 21, 2002, 19:46

of course I didn't like what he said.

maybe I shouldn't take it that seriously, but I'm tired and I've just listened to my uncle's horror stories from the war. I'm glad he didn't see this thread.

Buck Birdseed · November 21, 2002, 19:49

Sweden worked through WWII with one aim in mind- peace and prosperity for its own people. Whether this was the just thing to do or not (and you realist conservatives should certainly consider it such) it was immensely successful: Sweden managed to survive with a small handful of deaths, the people were reasonably well-fed, the industry stayed intact and could use its leverage to launch Sweden into one of the highest levels of prosperity of any country, ever in the following decade. Plus, sweden had switched sides at a time when Germany was occupied elsewhere and managed to get out without angering the allies.

Nubclear · November 21, 2002, 19:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Frankychan
You guys are forgetting Comrade Stalin and Mother Russia. (sorry Tass)

Thats ok. Stalin got Russia drunk and then raped her.

Provost Harrison · November 21, 2002, 19:53

Norway shouldn't be in that list, they were overrun by the Germans and put up a lot of resistance to their occupation...

OneFootInTheGrave · November 21, 2002, 20:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Norway shouldn't be in that list, they were overrun by the Germans and put up a lot of resistance to their occupation...

So did Croatia... a few hundred thousand Croats died in WWII fighting the Croat quislings Germans/ Italians... and so?

Hey Tito was a Croat too

Provost Harrison · November 21, 2002, 20:25

Very true OTIFG, I didn't see Croatia on the list...but I'm not surprised...you know how paiktis hates his fellow Balkan states

I say it's jealousy

ThePantaloonDog · November 21, 2002, 20:51

Any time a country is surronded by a hostile empire it will do anything to appease said empire. I would question any politicians sanity if they ran a country next to Germany in 1940 and didn't do some horrible stuff to appease Hitler. This is a moronic troll pure and simple.

Dr. Nick · November 21, 2002, 20:57

Excuse me, Sweden? AFAIK Sweden was the country that Jews escaping from the Baltic all the way to Denmark headed to.

Lord Merciless · November 21, 2002, 21:29

Quote:

Originally posted by ThePantaloonDog
Any time a country is surronded by a hostile empire it will do anything to appease said empire. I would question any politicians sanity if they ran a country next to Germany in 1940 and didn't do some horrible stuff to appease Hitler. This is a moronic troll pure and simple.

How do you describe the fact that most Spanish and Italian Jews survived?

How do you explain that Spain remained neutral all the way through the war, despite the massive aid Hitler gave to Franco?

Countries and Leaders with some backbone had successfully resisted Hitler, even under his shadows.

The Vagabond · November 21, 2002, 22:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Frankychan

Another "Let's Blame someone for atrocities" thread.

You guys are forgetting Comrade Stalin and Mother Russia. (sorry Tass)

What could the Pro-Hive Movement possibly have against Comrade Stalin?

Dr Strangelove · November 21, 2002, 22:35

A number of former allied countries actually supplied more troops for the axis cause than for the allies. Included among these were France, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, and Greece.