Replaying the Same Turn Multiple Times

[St Leo]

Seriously, people, we can't ban this, so we might as well embrace it. I do recommend to the practitioners that they do not overdo it because repeating the same moves twenty times is a good way to get sick of Civ.

The point of PBEMs is that losing to a good opponent is more fun than beating a bad one, so don't worry too much about your unfulfilled infinitesimal chances of victory.

[The ANZAC]

I don't think it is feasible to ban either

[Choke]

I think it's impossible to prove and like St Leo said we should embrace it to avoid groundless accusations flying around every time anyone does anything sucessfully.

[SunTzu]

Embrace it since its not wrong

[klesh]

Coyboy Neal isn't doing so hot.

-FMK.

[St Leo]

No worries. I am pretty sure he'll win the Bikini competition and that's what this poll is all about.

[SunTzu]

off topic, what is the C2 PBEM thing below your name?

[Choke]

It's a directory of forum members who like PBEMs I think.

[Cyrion]

Well, I strongly disagree with the people saying replaying it to get better combat result is OK!

I only replay a part of my turn when I hit the wrong key, so sending an unit off a road or railway! And even then, I often let them be, just to teach myself not to be so clumsy...

And I did once or twice "check" whether the next year was an OEDO year, I must admit... But I don't see a big problem with it, it's just to avoid counting the turns since the beginning of the game...

BUT I would NOT go so far as to call the "replayers" cheaters, I would rather say "not fair-play"...

[Pap1723]

I don't know whether I agree with it or not. I don't think I agree that they should be replayed for better combat results, but I have replayed turns when I forget to do things that I had planned to do in the first place.

Pap

[winterfritz]

I don't think that theres anything wrong with it; its part of the way pbems are set up, and is unavoidable. The only reason I don't do it is because I'm so lazy

As for replaying a turn for better combat results: if someone is obsessed enough to sit there for five hours until his chariot beats someone's rifleman, then maybe they deserve to win...

[Darius871]

Let's put it this way: a lot of you seem to be saying reloading for combat results shouldn't be banned because it 'can't be proven'. Well, there are several things that are definitely cheating which can't be proven either. If someone reveals the map and looks into the cities of his enemy and always hits the right spot and/or can be ready for sneak attacks, should it not be banned because we can't prove it? Please. A ban is just a meaningless matter of course, it doesn't matter whether the activity banned is provable or not.

[winterfritz]

Originally posted by Darius871
Let's put it this way: a lot of you seem to be saying reloading for combat results shouldn't be banned because it 'can't be proven'.

I just don't think reloading for combat results is actually breaking any of the game 'rules'. If its possible for one unit to beat another unit, then theres nothing to indicate that it did so on the first try or on the fifth, in a pbem. Its possible, either way; on the other hand, a civ which produces 6 units in a turn with only 4 cities is plainly cheating, or a player who knows the exact improvements, production and garrison of an enemy city on the other side of the map has been peeking where he shouldn't. As such reloading for better combat results is more bending than breaking the rules.

But like I said, I think that reloading a save dozens of times to keep trying for more favourable combat results is enough a pain in the ass to discourage most pbemers.

[Choke]

I don't think reloading is really wrong for this reason: in a real war or in reality in general countries have a general idea of the military strength of others. In Civ this isn't the case, espionage is an important part of real life but not civ. Therefore if someone attacks a city with all they have and it turns out to have an invincible garrison and they can't do anything to it they would have known SOMETHING about it in reality but in Civ without diplomats/spies which are not in most scenarios I play there's no way to know without reload.

[Case]

Originally posted by winterfritz
I just don't think reloading for combat results is actually breaking any of the game 'rules'.

Well, I imagine that the designers of civ included the random combat result generator in the game for a reason

As I said in the other thread, reloading turns makes it impossible for players to institute a proper defencive line. If the attacking player is able to manipulate the game so that they effectively always win, then what's the point of trying to defend anything? The defending player doesn't stand a chance.

But like I said, I think that reloading a save dozens of times to keep trying for more favourable combat results is enough a pain in the ass to discourage most pbemers.

Having done just that numerous times in the last few days while checking out The Overlords games, I agree - it certainly is a slow and tedious process. Nevertheless, people do do it.

[winterfritz]

Originally posted by Case
As I said in the other thread, reloading turns makes it impossible for players to institute a proper defencive line. If the attacking player is able to manipulate the game so that they effectively always win, then what's the point of trying to defend anything? The defending player doesn't stand a chance.

In a case like the one above, I'd have to agree with you. But I think real assaults in a pbem depend on many more factors for their success. If an attacking army is too small, or hasn't got powerful enough units, then an attack won't succeed no matter how many times a game is reloaded.

But once again, it all comes down to the problem that no one can tell how many times a save has been reloaded to achieve the end results of the turn. Given that its impossible to detect, perhaps defensive players should take reloading into account when constructing their defenses; making sure they're ahead on tech and thus have the stronger units, making sure they're placed in the best defensive positions, etc.

Perhaps this is also something designers of pbems should take into account when assigning unit stats. We can frown on it all we like, but short of organising some sort of international Apolyton Gestapo that would peer over our shoulders while we played pbem turns, theres no way to eliminate reloading. We'll just have to get used to it and adapt.

[Choke]

I don't mean attacking for combat results, I mean for reconasence (sp?) and if the attacker doesn't have enough units in range or enough units period it doesn't matter how many reloads he does.

[Darius871]

We can frown on it all we like, but short of organising some sort of international Apolyton Gestapo that would peer over our shoulders while we played pbem turns, theres no way to eliminate reloading.

Like I already said, I don't think it can be eliminated. I only think that a ban making clear that it is frowned upon will prevent a lot of people from doing it, whether they can be caught or not.

If an attacking army is too small, or hasn't got powerful enough units, then an attack won't succeed no matter how many times a game is reloaded.

Yes, but if they don't have enough troops for an attack to succeed, they could try it, see that it would fail, reload the turn, and not attack in that turn in order to muster more forces. That's as bad as revealing the map to see what kind of garrison they have and deciding not to attack.

I don't mean attacking for combat results, I mean for reconasence

But use of that reconnaissance enhances their combat results, so the effect is the same.

Well, I imagine that the designers of civ included the random combat result generator in the game for a reason

Hit it right on the nail.

[winterfritz]

Originally posted by Darius871
Like I already said, I don't think it can be eliminated. I only think that a ban making clear that it is frowned upon will prevent a lot of people from doing it, whether they can be caught or not.

Thats fair enough.

Well, I imagine that the designers of civ included the random combat result generator in the game for a reason

They also included the save/load game feature

[Darius871]

Originally posted by winterfritz
They also included the save/load game feature

Yes they did... so that people who are interrupted in the middle of a game can save it and continue playing from that point at another time. Period.

[Choke]

Hmm, I always thought it was so if things go ridiculously wrong you could reload...I guess I was wrong .

[Darius871]

You're being sarcastic, right? Sometimes I can't tell with you man, like on MSN a few days ago.

[Choke]

Hehe, well I think it is for both things. I think the game makers didn't want the game to be frustrating, this way you can reload and see what you did wrong and correct your mistake, whether it be in that same turn or many turns later. In PBEMs of course you can't say "Well guys the strategy I've tried for the last few turns isn't working, so we're going back 3 turns..." but you can realise that you've for instance screwed up an attack badly and reload to correct the mistake you made.

[Darius871]

Well, I think we should write Microprose a letter.

[H Tower]

i'm too lazy to replay my turns

[Chris 62]

I think you guys are going overboard with attempts at controling people.

I have played in plenty of PBEMs, if you need to replay your turn for perfect results, who cares?

Your the loser in the long run.

I got in the habit of accepting whatever comes up from playing MP, and I'm too old to change.

You dudes REALLY need to cool out with this stuff.

[Kull]

Originally posted by Chris 62
I have played in plenty of PBEMs, if you need to replay your turn for perfect results, who cares?

Your the loser in the long run.

I have to agree - at least with the last statement. For me (and I think this is true of most others here), this is a matter of personal honor. If you have to keep reloading until you get the results you want, why play at all? Anyone who wants to win that badly, please tell me BEFORE we start, and I'll happily declare you the winner so we don't waste your time and mine.

Anyone who thinks it's OK to do this should seriously ponder why he's playing the game in the first place. Winning is the long term objective, but let's face it - that's going to take a LONG time. So there has to be more to it than that. Give me the white-knuckled uncertainty that comes from "popping a hut" on your last move (no chance to kill the Barbarian, if one appears) or risking your only soldier against a fortified defender. If the result goes against me and I KNOW that I'll just reload.....how is that in ANY WAY entertaining?

When he says "who cares", Chris is at least correct in that no one's going to die, and this issue is miniscule in the big scheme of things. But I do care, if only because I'd rather not waste my time playing against someone who uses this dubious practice. Playing the game "straight" is the only way to show respect to your opponents and have fun on EVERY turn.

[Pap1723]

I would just say let them do whatever they want. If someone wants to take that long per turns, as long as it doesn't affect the flow of the game, let them do whatever they want.

Pap

[H Tower]

i freely acknowledge that i'm not a great civ2 player, i'm here because its fun, replaying the same turn over and over again sounds repetitive and boring

[St Leo]

Replaying is dishonourable, boring, and lame. However, it's not cheating. The recommended punishment is mockery.