ELECTION: Director of Social Engineering

[Joeno]

Candidates:
Hercules
Archaic
Write-in
Xenobanana

You have three days.

[DeathByTheSword]

i will not yet vote on this one....i want to here a speech first!

[Darkness' Edge]

Give Archaic a go. He's proved time and time again he knows what he's talking about - let's give him a chance to prove himself.

[Drogue]

Looks like we have FM vs non-FM (obviously there are moree points than that, but as an ideal)

Let's here what they have to say first. Should be interesting....

[Method]

not voting yet. let's have some debate!

[Pandemoniak]

No debtae needed. Hang him.

[Drogue]

[Archaic]

Apologies for not having posted earlier, but my motherboard blew a few days ago, and I was unable to get onto a computer with access to this until now.

Is there really any debate needed? If there's any questions about my policies, I'll gladly give you answers.

As much as I'd like to say "A vote for me is a vote for my policies", given that this debate has become polarized around FM Vs. Non-FM instead of being about a mix of all the issues (That's the problem when there's only 2 canditates I suppose), I won't for this election. However, regardless of if I get in or not this time, I'll be making that an official policy of mine for the next.

Oh, and unskilled labourer? If you're not going to contribute anything useful, get the hell out.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Archaic
This debate has become polarized around FM Vs. Non-FM instead of being about a mix of all the issues.

I'm sorry for that, my remark above was because it's the only issue I've seen the 2 of you discuss. Also since we don't have an abundance of SE choices yet, it is one that is probably the most hotly debated.

Originally posted by Archaic
Is there really any debate needed? If there's any questions about my policies, I'll gladly give you answers.

Personally I'd like to hear a few words on what you stand for, what your current and future SE opinions are and what you have in mind for the PK as a faction? I realise it's about more than just FM vs non-FM, but haven't heard you opinions on other choices yet.

Herc, anything to say?

[Hercules]

This is from one of the learned guides to SMAC/X

Peacekeepers:

Early on, you've practically got no choice whatsoever - Dem/FM/Wealth is your combo -

Planetary Governorship should be your goal - a boom is necessary before the first elections are called to ensure this. Once you have boomed, and Air becomes available, a switch to Green is unavoidable - you need the efficiency, as well as air units.

Note the word unavoidable. And it is not just one authority that takes that view.

We have still someway to go and we are not talking about switching to green tomorrow because we can't: we haven't got green as an option yet.

The debate now is not just about switching to green as soon as possible but about preparing for that eventuality and being sensible. This means no reckless removal of fungus which we can utilise later in the game, perhaps minimal use of boreholes and the reduction if not complete stop to the 80 level of eco damage by a number of strategies suggested elsewhere.

When it comes, the switch to green is not to every other factions liking so we must aim to have sufficient defence in place as a deterrent before the switch.
Drogue , myself and others have already acknowledged that in the early establishing phase some non environmentally friendly activity occurs out of the need to survive, so I am not suggesting a complete turnaround. what I am suggesting is care and forethought.

Green with other SE choices can faciliate both the conquer game and the transcendance game. But I think you also, we also, want a safe pleasant and secure environment in the future. You want to be able to visit the crech, stroll in the forest without fear of worm rape. You want to be able to visit the hologram theatre and recreational commons without fear of flooding. It is your future, give me your vote.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Hercules
Green with other SE choices can faciliate both the conquer game and the transcendance game. But I think you also, we also, want a safe pleasant and secure environment in the future. You want to be able to visit the crech, stroll in the forest without fear of worm rape. You want to be able to visit the hologram theatre and recreational commons without fear of flooding. It is your future, give me your vote.

Well said Herc.

While that guide is probably a good way to run the Peacekeepers, I have never got FM to work (its hard to explore with that much penulties) so I generally run Demo/Planned. Also, since in SP there's not so much problems with having a bad probe team rating (I very rarely get probed) I go for Knowledge too, because morale bonuses are annoying, and Wealth without FM or GA only give +1 energy per base, not much of a bonus IMHO. But that's just me.

[Drogue]

Dead heat so far now this is really getting interesting....

[Method]

bah. green is all well and good, bet free market is better

i too used to be afraid of it, but after actually trying it out, i had a lot of success. and besides, just because some guide tells us we *have* to, doesn't me a thing. does the guide vote? of course not.

[Drogue]

Ohhh... but.... but... It's FM! It can't be good! It just can't!!!

* Drogue retires to a corner to contemplate the impending doom that he's been taught must follow turning to the Dark Side.

[Method]

besides, all this position involves really is posting polls about setting SE. xenobanana could do it

[Archaic]

For this term anyway. In the next term, I hope to have got through a proposal to make it when you vote for a canditate, you vote for their policies.

Herc, just because you can't play the Morganites all that well (No offense, but you're woefully behind in the Battle of Planet MP. And guess who's leading I might add?) doesn't mean FM should be discarded. That guide assumes an average player, but there are ways and means to do things beyond what that guide suggests. And even so, for this term at least, that guide supports my FM position.


Drouge - I stand for Demo/FM/Wealth. I don't have any particular preferance for the future SE's at this time, mainly because I don't know what projects we'll snag. If we have the vats, then the PK's should be at the forefront of the Brave New World, and go TC. If we have the Backbone, we go Cybernetic.

[Lemmy]

Herc, just because you can't play the Morganites all that well (No offense, but you're woefully behind in the Battle of Planet MP. And guess who's leading I might add?) doesn't mean FM should be discarded.

Where exactly does he say that he's discarding FM?

[Aaron Blackwell]

Herc, just because you can't play the Morganites all that well (No offense, but you're woefully behind in the Battle of Planet MP. And guess who's leading I might add?) doesn't mean FM should be discarded. That guide assumes an average player, but there are ways and means to do things beyond what that guide suggests. And even so, for this term at least, that guide supports my FM position.

That is a wolly VERY UNFAIR argument that you are using there Archaic.

Frankly, I don't care if Hercules can or cannot play the morganites properly as we are playing the PeaceKeeper. Besides, it is an out-ouf-character argument that you are using there and that is only valid for MP with only a single player leading each faction.
==> I will thus have to ask you NOT to use this kind of argument. ((( )))

I would like to hear more constructive reasoning of yours instead of hearing a parrot repeating what he has heard without giving any fact to support his assumpion.=>This is valid for your as well Hercules ((( )))


Now, I guess that they are real things that are at stakes here.

We may not have that many SE options for the moment, but the ones we have can have a drastic impact on our faction.

The only thing you have said so far is that you are in favor of Democratic/Free Market/Wealth society.

On the other hand, you give absolutely no suggestion to why you choose this, what are your prediction on the impact of such choices, and more importantly what you will suggest in order to solve the problems these choices will cause.

Hercules has at least mentioned the efficiency problem.

Besides, I see that you are in favor of Though Control Policies, should our research allows us to achieve a SE like this.

Adding to this the fact that you are in favor of Free Market/wealth choices and the lack of clear justification for such choices, I am forced to logically conclude that you are in favor of a world where a selected few will be able to get all the riches of that world, in the expense of the freedom and quality of life of the majority,
while at the same time destroying the environment just to fill your energy wallet. ((( )))

Archaic, you are a real danger to the democracy as well as all the ethical values our faction stands for !!!!!!

((((( ))))

[Hercules]

Archaic You know well I inherited that position and its starting location was abysmal. And anyhow you still haven't worked out how I have got airpower before you.

TKG:

besides, all this position involves really is posting polls about setting SE. xenobanana could do it

Are you going through a bad phase at the moment. Has all that experimentation with two headed sheep had an effect.

Plus a Xenobanana could win a SP game playing FM. As I have have stated it is not just about winning but winning what, a conquer or transcendence victory and what condition we leave the planet in.

It is about time we heard from yourself, commissioners and others what sort of world you want to live in here on planet and what victory option you prefer.

[Archaic]

Aaron Blackwell, before you make judgements like that, go read every debate I've already participated in since this Demo Game began. I've already addressed every single thing you listed there at least once, usually 2 or 3 times. I'm not going to keep repeating myself. I was just summing up my overall position. That doesn't mean I'm not flexible. Go read my speaches for the first 3 SE Director elections for starters.

And Herc, you got it through a Artifact. That's the only explanation seeing as no other faction has it yet, and seeing that you didn't have either NG or MMI.

[Aaron Blackwell]

Archaic,

You are very wrong. I did read some of the former debate where you participate about SE choices.

I did even answer to the subject about the ecological consequance that FM would have should we switch to it now or in a near future.

And from all the post I have read from so far concerning FM, it seems to point out that you are clearly underestimating the negative effect of FM, especially the ecologic one.

Now I can be wrong, maybe I missed some thread, but Yes I did read some of the debate about this subject prior to my first thread in this post.

Beside, you are the one applying for this job. It is thus not my role to search every single thread where you would have spoken about the subject.

It is up to you to make a clear, concive and complete presentation on what your objectives will be should you be elected to this post which you haven't for the moment. Just saying that you want such and such SE choice is not enough if these choices are not supported by a clear and productive explanation of those choices.

Besides, DBTS has (appropriately I think) asked to hear the speech of the candidates in this thread.

And you also mentioned this

Is there really any debate needed? If there's any questions about my policies, I'll gladly give you answers.

So, I suppose you will not mind if I ask those following questions ? :

- How do you intend to make switch from Planned to Free Market ? In the short, middle or long term ?

- What will you suggest we could do in order to solve the Drones and Eco-Damage that Free Market will cause ?

- Do you think we really need FM to cause Fungal Bloom whereas we have NA already causing lot of eco-damage ?

- Though FM will provide us with more research, haven't we better option for the moment to alleviate this problem ? Like building more infrastructure ( which we are lacking for the moment) and pop booming with our planned/Democracy/Children Creche combo ?

- There was a debate about either building the Planetary Transit System or Citizen Defence force first. Though I did not agree at the beginning, the point of view of other citizen has convinced me that the PTS will be more beneficial to us as we are going to build a few more cities in the near future.
Isn't supporting Free Market contradicting the expansion politics we are following for the moment by building the PTS (which was supported by the majority) and colony pods ?

- Why have said the following sentence while saying that you would "gladly agree to answer any question" ?

I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

After all, not everybody has had the opportunity to hear your whole point of view on the subject.

Now, you have the opportunity to simply give the link to the statment you have made in the past to make your job easier.
But again, you may not be wanting to repeating yourself, but I am not really wanting to make a full search of the forums for each of your single post.

Now, I do agree that I am fairly biased toward people who says they are in favor of though control policies

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Aaron Blackwell
Now, I do agree that I am fairly biased toward people who says they are in favor of thought control policies

Doesn't Thought Control seem completely at odds with the Democracy ideal of the Peacekeepers? I was under the impression that was a normal Hive policy? We lose our freedom to act, freedom of speech and even freedom of thought! It just seems evil!

[Aaron Blackwell]

Which is exactly one of the main reason why I am so strongly opposed to Archaic's program.

And yes, thought control are exactly the same kind of inhuman policies that the hive is using !!!

Considering that Archaic support this ( as well as fundamentalist), I will do every effort to stop him or convince him that his beliefs are awefully wrong and against everything we as the UN Peacekeeper believe in.

By the way Archaic, I have changed my mind and decided to track down as much of your post as possible.

And what I saw was .... interesting and confort me to the idea that you are a real danger to democacry. ((( )))

Out of character : Of course everything was said In character there. Personnally I have nothing against you Archaic. I just don't agree at all with both your opinion and the way you express them.

[Lemmy]

Archaic, you can't expect every citizen to read all the debates.
Places like these (voting booths ) get the most attention, and it is in your best interest to post your viewpoints here, even if you did post them somewhere else a dozen times and they are still the same.

[Hercules]

Thank's Aaron for that very strong statement of support against Archaics policy outlook. In fact Archaic you had no particular view of the future as I think I read in one of your proclamations. I think I read you would be satisfied with a Cybernetic Future or maybe even Thought Control.

My feeling this is way out of step with the current philosophy of The Peacekeepers. The PK's are strongly against Police State control and your other future possibility: well its not one I would wish on anybody.

[Method]

Originally posted by Hercules
Are you going through a bad phase at the moment. Has all that experimentation with two headed sheep had an effect.

easy, i was just joking. you could say the same thing about the research job . i think you may be taking this a *bit* too seriously

as for favoured victory, transcendance of course, provided it doesn't take another 200 years.

[Kim_Il_Sung]

i dunno.....i like archaics style of debating......but i dunno......doesnt seem that fun......ill XENOBANANA

[Archaic]

I'm restricted to posting at the moment from a Pentium 70 computer with a 28.8kbps internet connection, thanks to that blown motherboard (I won't be back on my proper computer until Monday night my time). You can't seriously expect me to re-post every single arguement I've made.

Aaron Blackwell, you say...

And from all the post I have read from so far concerning FM, it seems to point out that you are clearly underestimating the negative effect of FM, especially the ecologic one.

I say that's a pathetic arguement with nothing to back it up. People like you and Unskilled Labourer Pan have been *overstating* the negative effects of FM from the very beginning, especially those dealing with Drone problems and the Ecology.

Now then....

- How do you intend to make switch from Planned to Free Market ? In the short, middle or long term ?

Short. ie. ASAP.

- What will you suggest we could do in order to solve the Drones and Eco-Damage that Free Market will cause ?

Eco-Damage won't be hightened at any base which isn't already producing it. At any base that is....it's a secondary concern. Any destroyed terraforming can be repaired before we need to use the square again, because we'll have specialists in the base anyway (That would be something I'd be pushing for even without needing Drone Control I might add.)
As for Drones.....oh lookie lookie what I said about specialists.

- Do you think we really need FM to cause Fungal Bloom whereas we have NA already causing lot of eco-damage ?

I never said anything about needing FM to cause Fungal Bloom. Don't distort my position. I said it was a bad idea to *prevent* Fungal Bloom like some people are suggesting we do.

- Though FM will provide us with more research, haven't we better option for the moment to alleviate this problem ? Like building more infrastructure ( which we are lacking for the moment) and pop booming with our planned/Democracy/Children Creche combo ?

We don't really have the Nut support at the moment to boom to a level enough to make it worthwhile. Infrastructure is better served through the extra credits from Market allowing us to hurry items sooner.

- There was a debate about either building the Planetary Transit System or Citizen Defence force first. Though I did not agree at the beginning, the point of view of other citizen has convinced me that the PTS will be more beneficial to us as we are going to build a few more cities in the near future.
Isn't supporting Free Market contradicting the expansion politics we are following for the moment by building the PTS (which was supported by the majority) and colony pods ?

No. It isn't. For reasons of B-Drones (No-police drones are countered by the PTS, thank you very much). -2 Effic at this point is more of a threat than -5 Police.

[Aaron Blackwell]

Thank you very much by answering , even if not appropriately, all my questions.

Still, considering the hardware problems you have for the moment and the fact that you have so 'kindly' answered me, I'll make an effort and try to answer you in the most polite and constructive way I can.

****************

You can't seriously expect me to re-post every single arguement I've made.

I am not asking for that, just that you make a good summary of the policy you support with some fact and explanation to why you are supporting it ....... which I've said before in this thread.

But worry not, I understand that , with the elections, you are under pressure, so I will not blame you for this little inattention of yours. After all, nobody died of it

************************

Then you said that

I say that's a pathetic arguement with nothing to back it up. People like you and Unskilled Labourer Pan have been *overstating* the negative effects of FM from the very beginning, especially those dealing with Drone problems and the Ecology.

but you also said that

You can't seriously expect me to re-post every single arguement I've made.

Do you expect me to copy and paste all the threads that prove that I am correct ? But worry not, the rest of the thread will clearly demonstrate that you are NOT taking every fact into account, only the ones that suit your demonstration.

Eco-Damage won't be hightened at any base which isn't already producing it. At any base that is....it's a secondary concern.

New Apolyton is already producing something like 80 eco-damage/turn. By switching to FM, the number will rise to something like 160 !!! Is that a secondary concern for you ?

And we would have to remove quite a few crawlers/workers to get it down to an acceptable level. This will cause problems as it will severly slow down to build infrastructure at NA and to get the CDF secret project there. ( Because Morgan will switch its production from PTS to CDF).

That is two point you did not acknowledge so far. Unfortunately, the list continues.

***************************

you have said this

Any destroyed terraforming can be repaired before we need to use the square again

but also ( and accurately for once ) said this

We don't really have the Nut support at the moment to boom to a level enough to make it worthwhile.

If we do not have enough nut for Pop Boom, we do not have enough nut at all period. This means that our former will have to build farm/condensor or farm on nutrient bonus to alleviate this problem.

They will not be able to do that if they have to remove fungus and repair previous terrain ehancement.

Besides, Fungal Bloom will cause mind worms to appear and because of Pacifist Drone, it will be difficult to send regular troops to protect them. And because they will be unable to attack first due to FM planet penalty, there will be casualties which, in turn, will force some of our bases to build and replace any troop/former that will be lost.

That is an additional two problems caused by FM that again, you do not recognize.

**********************

Let's continue. You said this

I never said anything about needing FM to cause Fungal Bloom. Don't distort my position. I said it was a bad idea to *prevent* Fungal Bloom like some people are suggesting we do.

but you also (again accurately) said this

Eco-Damage won't be hightened at any base which isn't already producing it.

and in the STEP thread you said this

Oh bloody oath, not another treehugging leftie party. Get a reality cheque and learn how the progress of a Free Market reduces the Eco Damage we do in the long term while increasing our production ability in the present. .......
By doing more damage now, we do less damage than we would later for the same minerals.

So, you favor the use of FM to increase eco-damage to get free clean minerals but also aknowledge that FM has no effect on the number of clean minerals.

Thus, may I ask you the following question :
Do we really need FM to accomplish that ? Especially considering that with New Apolyton, we already proved that we can do a LOT of eco damage without resorting to FM.

Besides, the real effect of FM is to make the eco damage more uncontrollable and will request us to divert ressource to counter its ill effect to clean fungus/replace troops and formers.
*****

You said this

Any destroyed terraforming can be repaired before we need to use the square again, because we'll have specialists in the base anyway (That would be something I'd be pushing for even without needing Drone Control I might add.)

Having not yet access to empath, the use of doctor to remove drone is a waste or ressources as these doctors will not producing nutrient for base growth/ minerals for base infrastructure/energy for research and cash.

Also as I have said recently in a thread I started, we already have some bases who are using doctor to prevent drone riots (namely Tacitus Academy and Concordia)

Switching to FM will only make this problem worse as we will have the following bases with drone riot condition :

thisbasebelongtous, Zanarkand gate,Antioch and Concordia. More doctor needed => more waste


More discussion needed to find problem to solve these solution => More time not spent to improve our society => more waste

Besides, the use of specialist (even for economics/Research) is counterproductive with the use of FM, as the extra cash provided by this economic model is directly linked by the number of worker used !!!

Specialist gets no bonus for FM as well as no Malus for the other social models.

**************

Let's continue

Infrastructure is better served through the extra credits from Market allowing us to hurry items sooner.

Switching to FM now will only provide us with 79 cash ( as opposed to 40 before). Do you expect to rush build a lot of infrastructure with this ?
Don't you think that the Industry bonus will not serve us better in this situation ?
Don't you think that some commissioner will have other plans for the cash accumulated so far ? ( Like upgrading military units, rush building secret projects).

To put it in another words, FM will not provide us with enough cash to consistently be able to use rush building.

*********

Oh !! And yes, the most beautiful one.

You said this

No. It isn't. For reasons of B-Drones (No-police drones are countered by the PTS, thank you very much). -2 Effic at this point is more of a threat than -5 Police.

You were talking about the Planetary Transit System I suppose, not about the Telepathic Matrix ?

Correct me If I am wrong, but the PTS only suppress ONE drone and ONLY at base size 3 or lower.

May I suggest you to take a small look at the datalinks ? ((( ))) ( no offence itended)

Do you intend to keep all our base at this size ? Again, this is counter-production with the idea of using FM, as we will have less worker which in turn will lessen the energy bonus that FM could provide us with.

***************

I say that's a pathetic arguement with nothing to back it up. People like you and Unskilled Labourer Pan have been *overstating* the negative effects of FM from the very beginning, especially those dealing with Drone problems and the Ecology.

Are you still conviced of that ? How come that people like me with 'pathetic' arguments are able to pinpoint so many problem with your politics while you are not ?

The only plausible reason would be that you are not analysing the consequence of your politics carefully enough.

No offence intended, but from this post and all the other I have read, you seem to be the person who is to proud of its own idea to try to look out for the possibe flaws in them.

And besides, as pathetic as my argument may be, they are , at least, based on facts and the current context.

I must also point out that , while I am not in favor of FM, that I am not discarding its possible use for the future. I just think we are clearly not prepared for that.
If I were to support the idea of FM, I would propose that we do whatever is needed to pop boom all our base and then go to FM, in order to maximize the bonus provided by it.

And maybe try to create Golden Age in all our bases when we have access to Empath for a grand total of +4 Economics => +1/square , +2/base , +2 commerce as opposed to +1/square,+1 commerce.

***************

I think that you are in great need of relaxation. I tell you what ... ... If you legalize the Xeno-Cannabis, I'll support your FM policies.

The culture of Xeno-Cannabis will GREATLY reduce the eco-damage and the drone problem will be solved by the use of Xeno-spliff

Okay end of rant

Have a good one

EDIT MODE :

And congratulations and good luck for your nomination

[Pandemoniak]

And congratulations and good luck for your nomination

lapsus lingue

Well said anyway, Aaron, but you'll see, after a couple of posts like that you suddenly get tired of replying to archaic...