Apolyton University Mod (PTW version) - Page 15

nbarclay · February 6, 2003, 22:23

If you don't like the draft-and-disband tactic, the simple fix is, don't use it. AIs draft a lot more than I do in most games (AU 203 is the first time I've drafted at all in ages), and undercutting the value of the units they draft is not a good thing for the AU Mod goal of making AIs more potent.

Dominae · February 6, 2003, 23:28

Nathan's right about the drafting thing. I can maybe see a case for MIs, but not allowing the AI to draft Infantry would cripple them greatly. Are Guerillas drafted instead of Infantry if Rubber is not available? If not, the change cripples that AI even more, forcing them to use Riflemen.

I'm not happy with the Communism building, but I'll test it out. 40 Shields sounds about right, but no less: they become available in the Industrial age, after all.

Guerillas should stay at 90 Shields, so that they're not used unecessarily frequently when Rubber is in fact available.

Dominae

alexman · February 7, 2003, 00:20

OK, let's forget about fixing the draft vs pop-rush for now.

However, I believe that weakening the AI on defense, such as not allowing Infantry and Mech Infantry to be drafted, is a good thing for killer AI generation. The AI needs help on offense, not defense, so long wars of attrition between AI civs are avoided.

aaglo · February 7, 2003, 09:06

What about that secret police building. If you build it (you're in communism), and then change your govt for democracy, what happens to that building? Is it destroyed/disbanded, or does it remain w/o it's benefits or with benefits? What happens?

Dominae · February 7, 2003, 09:18

I always miss something: aaglo's point is important. If the building stays after Communism, I'm definitely against the proposed change.

Dominae

Nor Me · February 7, 2003, 10:26

Quote:

Originally posted by aaglo
What about that secret police building. If you build it (you're in communism), and then change your govt for democracy, what happens to that building? Is it destroyed/disbanded, or does it remain w/o it's benefits or with benefits? What happens?

It has no effect outside of Communism. It remains without it's benefits although you cannot tell whether or not it's there.

Konquest02 · February 7, 2003, 11:27

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
OK, let's forget about fixing the draft vs pop-rush for now.

However, I believe that weakening the AI on defense, such as not allowing Infantry and Mech Infantry to be drafted, is a good thing for killer AI generation. The AI needs help on offense, not defense, so long wars of attrition between AI civs are avoided.

You have a point Alexman, but what about vs. the Human? In my games, I frequently encounter drafted units and they are sometimes a pain in the *** becausde they spawn really fast in the modern times. This would be great in a AI-AI war, but against the human, I think the problem is different.

I'm for most of the changes, especially the explore one, as it occurs once in a while...

--Kon--

Dominae · February 7, 2003, 13:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Nor Me
It has no effect outside of Communism. It remains without it's benefits although you cannot tell whether or not it's there.

Good, the first line answers my question. The second line is a bit of a puzzler: I'll assume you mean that the game still registers it as being there, although you cannot sell it and such until you switch back to Communism.

Dominae

Nor Me · February 7, 2003, 13:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
I'll assume you mean that the game still registers it as being there, although you cannot sell it and such until you switch back to Communism.

Yes. But it's not on the list of improvements in the city outside of Communism. If it had the graphics, it would show up as a ruin in the City View. Presumably you could capture a city in a goverment outside of Communism and not know if the city had one. It would just appear when you switched to Communism.

Dominae · February 7, 2003, 13:49

Can the Secret Police improvement be bombarded if the owner is not under Communism?

Dominae

TimHobbit · February 10, 2003, 13:01

OK, I admitt I may be dense, but I have read this entire post and I can't find where it says how to use this mod file. The readme file doesn't help ether. Once you download the file How do you use it?!?!?

Thanks, for helping the MOD challenged.

Dominae · February 10, 2003, 13:07

TimHobbit, put the unzipped file into your Scenarios directory. In-game, choose Load Scenario, pick the right file, and you'll begin a new game with the modded rules.

Alternatively, you can replace the Civ3X file with the mod, which has the effect of using the mod rules as default (remember to backup the old file though!). This is important if you like the Hall of Fame, as scores from scenarios are not recorded in it.

Dominae

Stuie · February 10, 2003, 14:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
This is important if you like the Hall of Fame, as scores from scenarios are not recorded in it.

Bit off topic, but I tried swapping out the vanilla .bix file with a modded file and the scores still did not get recorded. As far as I can tell, the Hall of Fame only works with an unmodified .bix file.

Apologies to alexman for the digression.

WarpStorm · February 16, 2003, 19:28

There is a checksum out there. Any scenario in which the rules change is not recorded. This includes the master civ3x.bix file. This seems arbitrary to me as a scenario which uses standard rules but gives me a couple of bonus Modern Armor in the ancient era will be recorded.

WarpStorm · February 16, 2003, 19:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Catt
I never knew that the Koreans can't capture cannons - if that's true, and there's a way to fix it, I say fix it.

It's true and very easy to fix.

The current (default rules) upgrade chain goes like this

catapult -> Hwach'a -> cannon -> artillery

and the Koreans don't have the cannon checked as being able to be built

to fix this make the chain

catapult -> cannon -> Hwach'a -> artillery

and allow the Koreans to build cannons

TimHobbit · February 17, 2003, 17:11

Dominae - Thanks for the info. Works.

Only small "pet peeve" can't quick start game with mods working.

Will say that Bab Bowmen are awsome with 0 Bombard.

Thanks for that last game.

Dominae · February 17, 2003, 17:18

Quote:

Originally posted by TimHobbit
Only small "pet peeve" can't quick start game with mods working.

If you want to use Quick Start with any mod (the AU mod in particular), you need to replace your civ3X.bix file in your PTW directory with the AU mod scenario .bix, renamed to 'civ3X.bix'. Of course, you should backup the original.

Dominae

aaglo · February 18, 2003, 05:52

About the new secret police building:

Is there a graphical presentation of this building?

aaglo · February 21, 2003, 03:05

Hey!

I think that horses and furs should also produce +1 food. Or what do you think?

Ozymandias · February 21, 2003, 09:28

Quote:

Originally posted by aaglo
Hey!

I think that horses and furs should also produce +1 food. Or what do you think?

I don't see why not -- horses evolved in North America and thrived here until our ancestors migrating over the Bering land bridge ate them into extinction -- thank heavens at least some of the horses had the good sense to head the other way! And IIRC you can still find "cheval" on some menus in France, unless that's recently changed.

--Of course, using them as a food source, you might want to increase the probability of their disappearance as a strategic resource.

-Oz

Bluefrog · February 21, 2003, 11:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Ozymandias

--Of course, using them as a food source, you might want to increase the probability of their disappearance as a strategic resource.

-Oz

Well, the same could be said for Fish, Wheat, Game, Cattle, and who knows what else I'm forgetting. *shrug*

alexman · February 21, 2003, 11:25

This is a good idea that might improve realism, but I think it would change the game too much for this MOD. Furs are already the best luxury resource. No need to further unbalance the luxuries.

On another matter, player 1 has a discussion going about the cost of the Gallic Swordsman. I think he has decided to reduce their cost to 40.

Most ancient-age units fit nicely in the curve:
Cost/10 = (MajorStrength-1) + 0.5*(MinorStrength-1) + Movement - UU
where UU is 1 if the unit is a UU, zero otherwise.

The "curve cost" of Gallic Swordsmen is 35, but their actual cost is 50. Are they overpriced?

Why did Firaxis choose 50 as their cost? I suspect it was because a warrior upgrade with a cheaper cost was too powerful in their testing.

I have actually never played as the Celts. What do people think about this unit? And does it really upgrade to Med. Infantry? How does that work, since the GS is actually more expensive? Do you get cash back?

Anyway, if I had to change something, I would allow the Celts to build normal Swordsmen, and reduce the cost of Gallic Swordsmen to 40 but remove them from the normal upgrade chain.
So the Celts would have:
warrior->swordsman->m.infantry->guerilla
g.swordsman->guerilla

Powerful warrior upgrades would no longer be a problem, and the Celts would continue to be able to build a somewhat useful UU (poor-man's knights) in the middle ages.

badams52 · February 21, 2003, 11:34

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
This is a good idea that might improve realism, but I think it would change the game too much for this MOD. Furs are already the best luxury resource. No need to further unbalance the luxuries.

Furs

But their never on good terrain. I prefer wines, silks, gems, ivory and spices, especially wines and gems. But then again, I'm a commerce junkie.

edit: I don't know how to spell firs

alexman · February 21, 2003, 11:39

Furs are usually in forests (OK, sometimes tundra). After you chop down the non-tundra forest, and improve the tile, you get a 2-2-2 tile in despotism.

Fosse · February 21, 2003, 12:39

Quote:

Originally posted by alexman
I have actually never played as the Celts. What do people think about this unit? And does it really upgrade to Med. Infantry? How does that work, since the GS is actually more expensive? Do you get cash back?

The upgrade is free, if I recall.

Quote:

Anyway, if I had to change something, I would allow the Celts to build normal Swordsmen, and reduce the cost of Gallic Swordsmen to 40 but remove them from the normal upgrade chain.
So the Celts would have:
warrior->swordsman->m.infantry->guerilla
g.swordsman->guerilla

Powerful warrior upgrades would no longer be a problem, and the Celts would continue to be able to build a somewhat useful UU (poor-man's knights) in the middle ages.

I don't like this idea... even at cost of 40 (which I support, 50 is huge, esp. since the original Civ 3 UUs don't cost any extra) the gold upgrades of warriors will be substantial compared to a standard sword upgrade.

Breaking the upgrade change is too big of a change for this mod to make, in my taste. Also, doing that would allow for a Celtic that doesn't have horses to make "poor man's knights" long after Gallic swords should have become obsolte. Extending the shelf life of a very powerful UU doesn't seem balancing.

The cost should be 40.

Alternativly, we could look at raising the cost of some Civ3 UUs to match the curve of PTW. Should the difference between hoplites and Num. Mercs really be so big, after all? And Mounted Warriors are CHEAP.

Dominae · February 21, 2003, 13:04

Reducing the cost to 40 is way to big a change. This not just "old Dominae complaining about changing too much". Changes to the UUs really affect gameplay a lot: the French are now a powerhouse, IMO. The point of this mod is not to balance all the UUs to make sure everyone get's a fair shake. And even if it were, we should work on the Indians, Mongols, etc. before the Celts. The only reason I can see that Gallic should be special is that it promises to be a great unit, and players are disappointed when it is not. That's not a good reason to make a change to this particular mod.

Edit: And, by the way, removing the Gallic from the upgrade path is irrelevant to the issue at hand, since the optimal play is to rush with Gallics until Knights arrive, not Medieval Infantry.

Dominae

Fosse · February 21, 2003, 13:16

Dom makes good points about the UUs of other civs. I'd add Scandanavia to the list as being too powerful.

But removing Gallics from the upgrade chain isn't irrelevant. Doing so would mean you could build them even after you get Med. Infantry, making them last until geurillas (with their usefulness expiring sometime around muskets or rifles for taking cities, and even then still useful against cavalry in the field)

Plus, what I said about a Celtic civ that doesn't get horses for some reason.

The new upgrade path makes Gallics even more powerful than lowering the cost, by hugely extending their shelf life.

edit for clarity.

Ozymandias · February 21, 2003, 21:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Bluefrog

Well, the same could be said for Fish, Wheat, Game, Cattle, and who knows what else I'm forgetting. *shrug*

*Ahem* but, unlike the ones you name, horses are a strategic resource, so there would be different consequences for gameplay.

-Oz

Jawa Jocky · February 22, 2003, 12:41

Sorry about being way off topic, but;

Instead of tweaking ship movement on a per ship basis, should we create a Small Wonder to effect naval unit movement?

Fosse · February 22, 2003, 15:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Jawa Jocky
Instead of tweaking ship movement on a per ship basis, should we create a Small Wonder to effect naval unit movement?

I'd say no. The per-ship movement increases make sense, given that the ships they are applied to come later in the game.

Adding a small wonder might have the same overall effect, but at a shield cost to each civ, and a disadvantage to any who have yet to build the small wonder.

The current system is fine by me... so that's my two cents.