Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[ducki]

What's the cost difference between Infantry and Guerilla?

Is there a certain cut-off point where the AI will build Infantry instead? Like if it's a 2-turn vs. 3-turn build?

Is there any difference in build prefs depending on city size?(I guess this would tie into the time-cost for the build)

There must be something that we're just not seeing that's causing this. Is there any advantage to guerillas at all? Time-to-build, cost-to-build, movement, anything?

me = intrigued

[Dominae]

Infantry and Guerilla both cost 90 Shields and are both available with Replaceable Parts.

Infantry stats are 6/10/1 in stock Civ3, 8/10/1 in the AU mod; Guerilla are 6/6/1 in stock Civ3. For some reason that I can't remember, the AU mod stats of Guerilla were changed to 7/6/1.

Infantry require Rubber to build, Guerilla do not. Only the "defender" path upgrades to Infantry (Spearmen, Pikemen, Riflemen). Most things that didn't upgrade in stock Civ3 now upgrade to Guerilla in PTW (a notable exception is Cavalry).

All this to say that, with access to Rubber, there is no reason to build Guerilla instead of Infantry. You could still have Guerillas kicking around if you've upgraded to them, though.


Dominae

[jshelr]

I think that infantry are wheeled in the mod so that guerilla units can go places infantry no longer can.

[alexman]

Actually, Infantry is not wheeled. Mech. Infantry is.

Is it bad for Med. Infantry to upgrade to Infantry if you have rubber? I think it would be a good thing. I don't see how it would affect strategy (I doubt one would build more swordsmen or Med. Infantry instead of knights because of this), it helps the AI, it is historically more correct, and it eliminates useless items from the build list.

[Jaybe]

So Guerillas are an "offensive" unit, and the AI will still build an offensive unit rather than an offensively superior defensive unit, eh?

Civ3/PTW is such a complicated mess!

[alexman]

Jaybe, Guerillas and Infantry are both offensive and defensive units to the AI.

Wild guess: When the AI needs a unit, it evaluates all the possible units it can build for that purpose, and chooses one. If it already has many of that type, it might choose a less effective one, because if the AI always built the best unit according to its evaluation, it would end up being unbalanced or at least predictable.

Example: Horsemen versus Swordsmen for offense. Which to build? The AI builds both of them, but it's very unlikely that they are both evaluated to be exactly equal. Another example is Marines versus Tanks. The AI builds tanks for offense most of the time, but sometimes builds Marines (presumably when it has enough tanks already). So with Guerillas, it thinks there might be some reason (not coded in its evaluation) to have them at the same time as Infantry, so it builds them just in case. It doesn't build very many though, just as it doesn't build very many Paratroopers over tanks.

[alexman]

• Guerillas upgrade to Infantry.
  To prevent the AI from building them when rubber is available, to clean up build list, to remove the awkward situation of Guerillas and Infantry fighting side-by-side.
• Bombard strength of F-15 and Stealth Fighters back to original (4).
  Cost of Stealth Bomber back to original (240)
  The lethal bombard ability (and stealth) is already enough to make these units worth using for bombarding. No need for more bonuses.
• Increase aggresion of Iroquois and Chinese to 4.
  Reduce aggresion of Babylonians to 2.
  Replace Chinese defensive units by offensive units as a build-often item.
  To make the AI play these civs to their traits' advantage.
• Increase optimal number of cities for all map sizes by 50%.
  Reduce percent of optimal number of cities for all levels by 1/3.
  To make the AI threaten domination without changing the corruption model.
• Replace Diplomats by Alliances in all techs after Writing.
  Same as before, except now you shouldn't get the pop-up to establish embassies when you already know Writing.

Object, approve, add, or discuss at will!

[Jaybe]

I presume you meant:
Reduce percent of optimal number of cities for all levels by 1/3.

[alexman]

Or multiply by 2/3, yes. Edited my post, thanks.

[Dominae]

I like all the changes, alexman. Perhaps we could also change the Guerilla's Attack back to 6 (or maybe push it up to 8?).


Dominae

[Fosse]

I really don't like the idea of upgrading geurillas to infantry. I like their role as an end upgrade path for warriors and archers, that can be used with limited results in an offensive or defensive role.

Infantry with geurillas side by side never bothered me. I saw it as partisans cooperating with regular forces, like the French resistance in WWII.

Also... since drafting makes either riflemen or infantry... there would be an odd situation where you would have no rubber, and draft rifles even though geurillas are the units of choice. (okay, I know...easily fixed)

But if it's the only way to get the AI to stop building them over infantry... then it's the only way.

Question though... I seem to recall that ages ago in this (or the Poor AI) forum it was discovered that the AI simply builds whatever unit comes latest on the build list. Someone tested this by creating a dummy warrior that the AI would build in the modern ages.

If this is actually the reason... couldn't we rename the geurilla unit "infantry" and the infantry unit "Guerilla" and then just switch their stats and Civilopedia information?
There would be no change to the units and gameplay, only the build list.

Then Infantry would be later on the list than Geurillas...

Would that actually work?

I'm a fan of the ROF changes you suggested as well. Deviating from stock isn't ideal... but when stock is severly broken... it's worth testing for an iteration, anyway.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Fosse
since drafting makes either riflemen or infantry... there would be an odd situation where you would have no rubber, and draft rifles even though geurillas are the units of choice. (okay, I know...easily fixed)

Actually, I believe Guerillas are already listed as a draft unit, so you would never draft riflemen if you have Rep. Parts. Good thinking though!

I seem to recall that ages ago in this (or the Poor AI) forum it was discovered that the AI simply builds whatever unit comes latest on the build list. Someone tested this by creating a dummy warrior that the AI would build in the modern ages.

It was me, and it was a bad experiment because I had defensive units as build-never (to force the AI to build an offensive unit in its first turn), and the AI gets confused when you select things as build-never.

Just to be clear, Guerillas are built under stock rules, but not nearly as often as Infantry. The AI makes the right choice most of the time, but throws a Guerilla in the build queue now and then.

Dominae, I know your bias against odd attack strengths.
I think we should give Guerillas +2 attack then, to match the changes in Infantry, Paratroopers, and Marines.

[BRC]

It doesn't build very many though, just as it doesn't build very many Paratroopers over tanks.

I agree that the AI should not build Guerrillas when it can build Infantry. No doubt. But I am having a hard time with the Swordsman and Spearman upgrade paths converging. Is that really the only way for us to fix that??

All the rest I like, but I don't really feel as if this change helps the AI enough to justify it. I understand how it makes sense from a historical point of view. I like the idea. I just don't care much for the solution.

I don't see how it would affect strategy (I doubt one would build more swordsmen or Med. Infantry instead of knights because of this), it helps the AI, it is historically more correct, and it eliminates useless items from the build list.

I really think that Firaxis should have thought harder about the Medievil Infantry and the Guerrilla, but there is nothing we can do now. I agree with you that this probably won't change strategy. I have heard some interesting way of changing the Guerilla so that it would serve a purpose. Movement of 2, treating all terrain as grassland, etc. would be a more effective solution IMO. I do realize that this does change the game more, which is not something I really want to do. However, I would rather find a way to incorporate the Guerrilla into the game rather than try to abandon it when you control rubber. Thanks. Sorry.

[player1]

I have no problem like this in my MOD, since there, bow&sword upgardes directly to Riflemen.

And since it has riflemen with cost of 70 and guerrila with cost of 80 (infantry with orignal cost), some AI guerrila from time to time (and that rare) is no problem (since it's cheaper from Infantry anyway).

And the reason I keep attack 7 guerrila is to not make them to much owerpowering against Riflemen (which has just +1 on attack), since there is a time when both sides have no rubber (rare but possibile).

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
Dominae, I know your bias against odd attack strengths.

I'm sad to say, but that's basically what it comes down to!

Concerning the loss of variety by making two upgrade paths converge, I'm sympathetic. However, alexman is right: in actual gameplay it won't affect strategy very much (how many Medieval Infantry to you have hanging around in the Industrial age anyway?). Putting the Guerilla's Attack at 8 means that the AI (which does have Medieval Infantry hanging around) will benefit from the upgrades, Rubber or no. And the odd time that it does build a Guerilla when it should build Infantry, at least its got decent attacker.


Dominae

[Dominae]

Thought I'd just throw out some ideas for helping the Guerilla unit (for AI purposes, mostly):

1. Remove "Requires Support" flag.

This makes the unit slightly better in the AIs hands. The potential downfall is that the human player could conceivably exploit this (for example, by fielding huge armies at low cost when in representative governments). The situation gets worse when you consider that you can Draft Guerillas. But, Guerillas still suck compared to Infantry (lower Attack and Defense, same cost).

2. Add zero-range Bombard ability

Just like we did with Archers and Longbowmen (and their UU counterparts). This helps the AI, since it always seems to have a couple of Guerillas just "hanging out" in a stack of units, where Infantry usually attack and defend first.

3. Add "Ignores Movement Cost" for Forest, Jungle

This change deviates from stock Civ3 significantly, but it's still not that interesting. The AI and the human player would make pretty good use of this ability, but those terrain types are largely gone in the Industrial age. Maybe the Guerilla could ignore movement cost in Hills...

4. Reduce cost of Guerilla to 8

Self-explanatory. Again, I think, uninteresting.


That's all I can think of for now. alexman's solution (Guerilla->Infantry upgrade) is a good one, but ideally Guerillas should serve a more important function. What would be really great is if we could tell the AI not to build the stupid things when it has Rubber available.


Dominae

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by alexman
Wild guess: When the AI needs a unit, it evaluates all the possible units it can build for that purpose, and chooses one. If it already has many of that type, it might choose a less effective one, because if the AI always built the best unit according to its evaluation, it would end up being unbalanced or at least predictable.

Are you sure there isn't a random factor?
I did a few tests for what the governor suggested building in the first city in 1.29f.
Two equal units were built equally often.
Making one unit amphibious appeared to make it be built more often but not always.

Of course then giving one unit an operational range made it appear to always be built so somethings changed.

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Dominae
3. Add "Ignores Movement Cost" for Forest, Jungle

This change deviates from stock Civ3 significantly, but it's still not that interesting. The AI and the human player would make pretty good use of this ability, but those terrain types are largely gone in the Industrial age. Maybe the Guerilla could ignore movement cost in Hills...

I may be supid but what difference does this make?

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Nor Me
I may be supid but what difference does this make?

Nay, sir, it is I that is stupid. With only 1 movement point, Guerillas can't really take advantage of reduced movement costs of terrain. Sorry, bad suggestion on my part.


Dominae

[BRC]

1. Remove "Requires Support" flag.

Exploitable.

2. Add zero-range Bombard ability

It would keep with the flavor of the mod.

3. Add "Ignores Movement Cost" for Forest, Jungle

I was wondering about this too, just with Hills, or Mountains.... also.

4. Reduce cost of Guerilla to 8

You're right. Boring.

alexman's solution (Guerilla->Infantry upgrade) is a good one

It is good. I just would like to see something else.

but ideally Guerillas should serve a more important function

I think that Guerrillas could be made to pull off some great strategic attack. The marines can attack cities directly from ships. This does give them use, even if it's limited. I envision a similiar use for Guerrillas. Sneaking through the jungle, hills, or whatever to lay seige on a city.

[BRC]

I may be supid but what difference does this make?

My fault too. What about with 2 movement points???

[Dominae]

Actually I like the Guerilla unit as is. I just don't like that the AI builds it when its not supposed to. My suggestions are just in hopes of reducing this weakness.

Come to think of it, here's another possibility:

5. Give Guerillas 1 bonus HP.

Again, slightly reduces the uselessness of Guerilla when Infantry are available.


Dominae

[BRC]

5. Give Guerillas 1 bonus HP.

Without getting into anything, I would prefer the upgrade solution to anything that involved playing with HP's. Just my opinion.

[alexman]

Dominae, thanks for the ideas!

Originally posted by Dominae
1. Remove "Requires Support" flag.

This might not help the AI as much as you think. The AI already gets little-known, level-dependent bonuses for unit support, so it may be operating at zero unit cost in the first place. But it's realistic, and would give the human somewhat of a choice to build Guerillas even when he has rubber.

2. Add zero-range Bombard ability

This is my favorite, especially since Guerillas are in the Archer-Longbowman upgrade path, who have this ability. It would definitely give Guerillas a distinct functionality without changing the game too much.

I just hope that giving Guerillas a special ability like this one will not make the AI build them more often. I doubt it.

4. Reduce cost of Guerilla to 8
5. Give Guerillas 1 bonus HP.

These are OK too, as long as the AI doesn't build more Guerillas as a result. I still prefer #2.

I guess I need to do some tests again tonight before we decide...

Originally posted by Nor Me
Are you sure there isn't a random factor?
I did a few tests for what the governor suggested building in the first city in 1.29f.
Two equal units were built equally often.

I'm not sure of anything, as "Wild Guess" usually implies! Please share information more often from these tests of yours!

[BRC]

This is my favorite, especially since Guerillas are in the Archer-Longbowman upgrade path, who have this ability. It would definitely give Guerillas a distinct functionality without changing the game too much.

I'm for this here. Let's do the bombard thing. That seems to me the best way to do it. Keep Guerrillas "in the game", and have a little fun with them.

[BRC]

is it good Alex??

[alexman]

No tests yet, but I updated the initial post anyway.

[player1]

Why just not make a "test version" and "official release" later, if changes are succesfull.

[alexman]

Because the whole thing is a big test!

The "official" versions are played with the AU games.

[Theseus]

I like the zero-bombard idea, pending what the AI then does.

Coupla other thoughts:

* alexman,, your ongoing devotion to this Mod is just GREAT, and the level of attention and number of posts it gets just blow me away.

* Firaxis should be using / highlighting the AU Mod in some way.