Apolyton University Mod (PTW version)

[alexman]

As many have observed before, the main shortcoming of Communism as compared to Monarchy as a wartime govrnment is its higher level of corruption. Even in cases where Communism should be better than Monarchy (empires with a number of cities cities close to the "optimum", but spanning large distances), it is not.

The best solution would be if Firaxis toned down the communal level of corruption, or at least if they gave us a way of doing it through the editor. But since that is unlikely to happen, our best hope for balancing that government is to try and reduce its corruption using the existing editor.

In the past, we have tried increasing free military support, but this was not effective because free military support for communism is already high, so support is already completely free in many cases. The AI has more units, but it also receivces additional free military support at higher levels. Another approach that didn't work was free building maintenance. This made communism too powerful, and the AI seemed to choose this government more often than usual.

So how about trying this now:
Add a very cheap (10 shields?) new Small Wonder (worker's union?) which is specific to Communism, and which gives enough happy faces (8?) to the entire empire to cause WLTKD celebrations everywhere. WLTKD has no effect on science and tax income, but it reduces waste. In cities with courthouses and police stations, the reduction is not dramatic, but is enough give Communism a good boost. We would probably also have to do something else like increasing worker speed.

[ducki]

sounds good, but will this make it the govt. of choice for large human empires, too?

let's try it and see.

how about AU 203 - Seeing Red, in which the human must not use Republic or Democracy and must switch to Communism as soon as it's available?

that way we could see just how good or bad the changes are in the long term.


Edit for clarification: the switch to Communism would be permanent.

[ducki]

Also, the Small Wonder - even though it's Specific to Communism, do its effects continue even if you switch out of Commie-dom?

If so, that's awfully unbalancing in favor of the human, isn't it?
Or can you make it only work while the Civ is in Communism?

[alexman]

Yes, there is no question that this solution would have been very bad if that were the case. But the Wonder has no effect when you're not in Communism. It doesn't even show in the city screen.

[player1]

What about cheap corruption reducing building?

[ducki]

Another thing - do we really need it to give Happy faces for WLT*D or will Content do the job?

If Content will do, I'd say call it something like Party Headquarters or The Kremlin. Make it give a buttload of Content faces, so the AI and the player still have to be doing something right to get actual Happy Faces and trigger WLT*D.

My interest is piqued, I wanna try this. Maybe I'm just bored with the standard Republic->Democracy path.

[delmar]

Call it The Vodka Factory.

[Catt]

Originally posted by alexman
So how about trying this now:
Add a very cheap (10 shields?) new Small Wonder (worker's union?) which is specific to Communism, and which gives enough happy faces (8?) to the entire empire to cause WLTKD celebrations everywhere. WLTKD has no effect on science and tax income, but it reduces waste. In cities with courthouses and police stations, the reduction is not dramatic, but is enough give Communism a good boost. We would probably also have to do something else like increasing worker speed.

Interesting, creative idea . I'd obviously like to see how it actually plays, but I like the idea of alleviating waste probblems a bit but leaving corruption in place (with all the traditional methods of fighting it still available, of course).

Catt

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by alexman

Add a very cheap (10 shields?) new Small Wonder (worker's union?) which is specific to Communism, and which gives enough happy faces (8?) to the entire empire to cause WLTKD celebrations everywhere. WLTKD has no effect on science and tax income, but it reduces waste. In cities with courthouses and police stations, the reduction is not dramatic, but is enough give Communism a good boost. We would probably also have to do something else like increasing worker speed.

I already had the Communist rubber monopoly down as an AU MOD specific strategy.

[alexman]

Rubber Monopoly? As in condoms are the reason everyone is happy?

Anyway, I thought about it a bit more and I think all these happy faces could be exploitable through pop-rushing and drafting. But maybe not. The AI routinely drafts and pop-rushes when it can. Maybe it's just a choice between using WLTKD or drafting as a means to get more shields.

BTW, anyone know exactly how Bach's works? I think it turns unhappy people content, but do you get some happy people when everyone's already content, or does the extra happiness go to waste like with a temple? Whatever the answer, that's how this new Communist Wonder would work.

[alexman]

Action: Added new, Communism-Specific, Small Wonder: The Kremlin.
Costs 10 shields. Can be built only in Capital.
Converts 8 unhappy people in each city in the same continent to content.
Gives free maintenance for trade installations.
Reason: To enhance Communism as a government choice.
Comment: The main shortcoming of Communism as a wartime government compared to Monarchy was the level of corruption. Free maintenance on trade installations gives some back some extra income lost to corruption, and the extra happiness can be used to get back some production, either from drafting/pop-rushing, or from waste reduction through WLTKD. Building in capital ensures that the AI won’t build this cheap Wonder in a secondary continent where it would lose some happiness benefits.

[Dominae]

I haven't followed this whole Communism discussion because I've been away, but here's my initial reaction:

We're re-creating Fundamentalism, slowly, bit by bit.


Dominae

[alexman]

• Remove wheeled ability from all units where it was previously added
• Remove airlift ability from all units where it was previously added
• Radar Artillery back to original (1 move, no oil/rubber)
• All ground artillery has defense strength of 1.
• AEGIS and submarines now transport cruise missiles.
• Upkeep of Banks back to original (1).
• Movement of Frigate back to original (4).
• Reduce movement of Privateer to 4.
• Increase attack strength of Frigate and Man-O-War by 1.
• Increase cost of Ironclad to 100.
• Battleship and AEGIS ROF back to original (2).
• Increase bombard strength of Battleship and AEGIS by 2.
• Unit support for Communism and Monarchy back to original.
• Add new Small Wonder: The Kremlin.

[ducki]

alexman - is that updated in the download on the first post?
If so, I'll try it out next time I have free time.
I tried a Deity game today, less than optimal start point, but was never more than 2 techs behind in any given tree. Got a leader and nabbed the library to maintain tech parity to Middle Ages, but I'm thinking I'll try out this Commie stuff at Monarch or Emperor.

Wheee!

[alexman]

ducki, no, it's not updated yet, because it's just a proposed list.

Let's wait a little longer in case anyone has any objections or other ideas.

[Dominae]

Ok, my last post was a little negative, so here's something constructive:

We're trying to keep the flavor of stock Civ3, but also trying to help the AI. In stock Civ3, Communism sucks. So basically we're trying to make the AIs not as big pushovers in Communism. I suggest the following: 1) make Espionage better under Communism, 2) raise the Draft limit, 3) raise the Worker rate and 4) raise the Police limit (why not). Sure, these changes probably will not make Communism the government of choice, and that's good. What they will do (I think), is make big wars against big AIs not easy. This will make WW a much bigger problem, which is as it should be.


Dominae

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by alexman
Anyway, I thought about it a bit more and I think all these happy faces could be exploitable through pop-rushing and drafting. But maybe not. The AI routinely drafts and pop-rushes when it can. Maybe it's just a choice between using WLTKD or drafting as a means to get more shields.

BTW, anyone know exactly how Bach's works? I think it turns unhappy people content, but do you get some happy people when everyone's already content, or does the extra happiness go to waste like with a temple? Whatever the answer, that's how this new Communist Wonder would work.

Drafting would be my choice, especially if I could get Longevity. 8 conscript infantry per city shortly after going Communism would often be a game winning advantage. If I can get that rubber then I could acheive domination with conscript MI and only have to worry about the UN.

Bachs only makes people content. I know it says happy faces in the editor but it means content ones.

[Nor Me]

Dominae, I second that.

[Catt]

Does limiting the Kremlin to the Capitol penalize island map AIs? Do we need to limit its effects to the same landmass? I'll be interested to see if it works without the AI exploiting the draft concept.

I haven't tested it - just anecdotal observations - but it seems that the AI will always strive to take full advantage of the MP limit in every city, meaning if we increase the MP limit it might induce too much unit building (creating (1) a too-aggressive, stagnating AI, or (2) a burdensome maintenance cost on the swithc out of Communism since I don't think the AI voluntarily disbands units).

Catt

[alexman]

Originally posted by Dominae
We're trying to keep the flavor of stock Civ3, but also trying to help the AI.

We are also trying to give the player more options, as long as that does not hurt the AI.

The AI does not choose Monarchy over Communism, but the human knows better. So we either do as Dominae suggests, which is to make Communism better but still terrible, or make Communism an alternative (but not a substitute) to Monarchy for War. Both philosophies follow two of the goals of the mod and break one. I prefer to follow the one that would help the AI the most, which happens to be the one that also gives the player more options.

4) raise the Police limit (why not).

But isn't this somewhat the same as what the proposed Kremlin would do? Reduce the number of unhappy people? Note that if we add the Kremlin, we would remove all the other bonuses (free unit support, free unit support) from Communism.

As Nor Me pointed out, the 8 happy people might be too much of a bonus. Although I can't picture achieving domination with conscript Infantry unless you're going against Musketmen, perhaps he's right. But I still think we should try and make Communism an alternative to Monarchy, not just better than what it is now.

Catt, there is no way for a Small Wonder to add content people on all continents. It has to work like Bach's Cathedral.

[Catt]

Originally posted by alexman

Catt, there is no way for a Small Wonder to add content people on all continents. It has to work like Bach's Cathedral.

Drat.

alexman, have you played with this at all in debug mode? I might do so this evening if you haven't, just because I'd hate to see it cause some really funny behavior in a "real" game (I sense that we're taking a big step, and big steps can have big unintended consequences ).

Catt

[alexman]

I did a very short test to make sure government-specific buildings work as intended, but I didn't play enough to see if the AI actually builds them, or how it uses the extra happiness. However, I think Nor Me's main concern is that the human will exploit the draft, not the AI.

[Catt]

Clearly the human could exploit it as Nor Me points out . . . but we wouldn't do that . Just feels like a big leap and I'd rather put the ol' beer bottle on the space bar for an hour than play through a game only to discover some weird AI goings on.

BTW - the beer bottle thing didn't work out perfectly last time -- I was afraid it would spill into the keyboard. Had to use a cup of yogurt for proper weight / balance / safety purposes. But I'll still refer to the "ol' beer bottle" method of testing.

Catt

[BRC]

What they will do (I think), is make big wars against big AIs not easy.

I think this is the key here. In trying to create Killer AI civs, we need to keep them from falling apart as they get bigger.

I haven't tested it - just anecdotal observations - but it seems that the AI will always strive to take full advantage of the MP limit in every city, meaning if we increase the MP limit it might induce too much unit building (creating (1) a too-aggressive, stagnating AI, or (2) a burdensome maintenance cost on the swithc out of Communism since I don't think the AI voluntarily disbands units).

If the AI does try to take full advantage of the MP limit, then I don't think that it will be benificial to increase the MP limit too far. I believe that if the AI ever gets out of the war, then it will not be able to make the switch to a more efficient government.

I like the idea of decreasing corruption in Communism through WLTKD, as opposed to MP. I do think that it should be tested before implemented.

As a question, why are we changing all of the other things back to normal?? Thanks.

[player1]

Originally posted by alexman
Remove wheeled ability from all units where it was previously added

You know my opinion. Still if it benefits AI...

Originally posted by alexman
Remove airlift ability from all units where it was previously added

Why? It realy doesn't help human much. And it's not much realsitic too (tank yes, arty no ?!?).

Originally posted by alexman
Radar Artillery back to original (1 move, no oil/rubber)

Arty sucks for AI, now RA sucks for human too.
(same as removing it from game if you ask me)

Originally posted by alexman
All ground artillery has defense strength of 1.

Intersting. Could help the AI (or maybe NOT). But there is also loss of FLAVOR (troop capture). At least it will be more difficult to lose your own artillery. No defending units? No probelm, AI would need at least 10 units to take out my 10 Atrilleries.

Originally posted by alexman
AEGIS and submarines now transport cruise missiles.

Interesting.

Originally posted by alexman
Upkeep of Banks back to original (1).

Why was it changed in first place?

Originally posted by alexman
Movement of Frigate back to original (4).
Reduce movement of Privateer to 4.
Increase attack strength of Frigate and Man-O-War by 1.
Increase cost of Ironclad to 100.

Good. Although you could keep Ironclads with cost of 90. So Ironclad to Destroyed upgarde woun't be too cheap.
Dough... Almost forgot. You upgarde it to Batteship. Right?
Better to Destroyer if you ask me.

Originally posted by alexman
Battleship and AEGIS ROF back to original (2).
Increase bombard strength of Battleship and AEGIS by 2.

OK, keeps air vs naval balance.

Originally posted by alexman
Unit support for Communism and Monarchy back to original.
Add new Small Wonder: The Kremlin.

I don't know about that name.

Small Woders should have UNIVERSAL names, not specific as Great Wonders. There is only one Kremlin not 8 of them.
(although Pentagon is exemption)

[ducki]

I was thinking about guerillas...
... is it possible to give a unit 1.5 movement points?

Basically, I'm wondering if there's a way to allow guerillas to retreat without giving them 2 moves.

Maybe I'm over-romanticizing my own image of the guerilla.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by alexman
We are also trying to give the player more options, as long as that does not hurt the AI.

Communism does have its uses, even in stock Civ3. However, the situations when Communism is useful happen so infrequently that it feels like it's a useless government. By making it conceivably useful in every single game (i.e. whenever there is an Industrial age war), we'll probably make it too powerful and reduce the game to even more warmongering than there currently is.

My proposal is to increase Communism for the AI (since it already likes it so much), and decrease The Republic (and maybe Monarchy and Democracy too). This means that the AI will be more competitive (in war). Indirectly, this means that the human will have more decisions, because big wars in representative governments will be very difficult against (militarily) strong opponents. Monarchy is still a problem, I admit. The key is to make Communism better than Monarchy in pure warfare, and that's it (and not to make Communism an alternative for economic growth).

Originally posted by alexman
I prefer to follow the one that would help the AI the most, which happens to be the one that also gives the player more options.

My worry here is that by helping out the AI sufficiently to notice a big change, we're going to change the players' game as well. I'm all for zero-range bombardment and doubled Specialists, because they don't change the way I play the game that much. If Communism becomes a great option, I'm going to have to get used to some pretty dirty warfare (against an admittedly strong AI) in the Industrial age, because that's what is going to win me games. What I would rather have happen is make the AI good (and aggressive) enough that I'll have to react to it, without changing the way I play depending on the current version of the mod.

Originally posted by alexman
But isn't this somewhat the same as what the proposed Kremlin would do? Reduce the number of unhappy people?

Yes and no. The AI loves to keep units inside its cities, so there would be a nice drop in unhappiness. On the flip side, the human player that knows 8 more of his or her citizens are born content instead of unhappy will use that knowledge accordingly, especially in ways the AI wouldn't think of. By raising the police rating, you're forcing the AI and the human to play the same game (which is a good thing, no?).


Anyway, I love most of the changes to this mod. But significantly altering governments, even if it does help the AI, makes me uneasy. My suggestions are in attempt to keep the feel of the game intact, while slightly increasing the AI's chances. Hopefully "slightly" will feel like "enough".


Dominae

[alexman]

Dominae, I don't think we disagree on the philosophy of the mod on Government changes. We probably have different experiences on how useful Communism currently is though. I think it's never an option for the human. I have never seen a case where Communism is better than Monarchy, the other wartime government. Well, theoretically, you could use Communism temporarily if you want to develop your cities outside your core or if you want to pop-rush and draft for a few turns, but I have never been tempted to do that.

You have a good point about military police. We'll have to see if the increase makes the AI keep more units in its cities to take advantage of the change. I'll test it soon.

[ducki]

Originally posted by alexman
Well, theoretically, you could use Communism temporarily if you want to develop your cities outside your core ... but I have never been tempted to do that.

I think this should be an option for the human...isn't that the whole point of communal corruption? That your outlying towns can develop infrastructure as well as your core?

You have a good point about military police. We'll have to see if the increase makes the AI keep more units in its cities to take advantage of the change. I'll test it soon.

The problem I see with this is if the AI switches to communism for wartime, either he drafts/builds a buttload of "extra" units for MPs, or he experiences happiness unless he spends his entire surplus on luxury slider.
So, when war is over and he switches back to Rep/Dem, he's losing a buttload of cash every turn on upkeep for those formerly useful MPs.

It's a catch-22 for the AI, and while I think slightly increased MP useage and unit support helps during the war, doesn't it just make the post-war stage even worse for an already mentally challenged AI?

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I think giving the AI (and the player) a leg up while in communism is good, but not if it comes at the expense of the bank account during the after communism phase.

If I'm completely missing the point, let me know and I'll shut up about this until we can test it.

[Catt]

Originally posted by ducki

The problem I see with this is if the AI switches to communism for wartime, either he drafts/builds a buttload of "extra" units for MPs, or he experiences happiness unless he spends his entire surplus on luxury slider.
So, when war is over and he switches back to Rep/Dem, he's losing a buttload of cash every turn on upkeep for those formerly useful MPs.

ducki - the AI never uses the luxury slider according to Soren, favoring instead entertainers. But other than that, I have the same concerns as you do -- if an AI is communist, it seems to me it will always have at least 4 units in every city, in addition to what it has out in the field. Since I don't think the AI disbands units, my worry is that the AI will be stuck, for the rest of the game with a "too large" military to allow for a switch back to a peacetime government and/or that the mere presence of so many units will cause a near continuous power imbalance between that AI and others -- meaning lots of wars of stagnation. The additional free unit support the AI gets at the higher levels largely offsets my first concern -- but if we up the MP level significantly, it raises the risk of imposing an upkeep burden on AI civs, particularly at the lower difficulty levels. It's all speculation, of course, and worth a test (for we may be worrying about nothing).

I didn't get to test last night, but am going to try and run a debug game this morning with increased MP to observe the effects, and if that goes quickly will also run a debug with a Kremlin improvement.

Catt